Removal Theology not Replacement Theology

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Dave L

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Try again.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number:
1577 Browse Lexicon
Original Word
Word Origin
ejkklhsiva from a compound of (1537) and a derivative of (2564)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ekklesia 3:501,394
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ek-klay-see'-ah Noun Feminine
Definition
  1. a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
    1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
    2. the assembly of the Israelites
    3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
    4. in a Christian sense
      1. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
      2. a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
      3. those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
      4. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
      5. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
    An OT assembly.
As I said both the congregation of the Lord and the Church are the same by definition.
 
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CoreIssue

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For clarity Acts 7:38 is talking about old testament history. Nothing new testament.

The Church did not exist in the old testament.
 
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Dave L

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For clarity Acts 7:38 is talking about old testament history. Nothing new testament.

The Church did not exist in the old testament.
If a church is a congregation or assembly, how could it not exist in the OT? Stephen who knew history even called the congregation of the Lord the church proving we existed then. Job and his friends formed a church when they met in faith.
 
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CoreIssue

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If a church is a congregation or assembly, how could it not exist in the OT? Stephen who knew history even called the congregation of the Lord the church proving we existed then. Job and his friends formed a church when they met in faith.

Jesus said he would build his church on himself.

You cannot build something that already exists. Nor can you build something on someone when they do not exist.

Was there a church in the Old Testament
 
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Dave L

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Jesus said he would build his church on himself.

You cannot build something that already exists. Nor can you build something when someone when they do not exist.

Was there a church in the Old Testament
“Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.” (Jude 5)

Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Build the church on himself? Happened long ago. Build the church on faith alone? That too. But now with the unbelievers gone, Jesus builds his church entirely on faith alone.
 
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CoreIssue

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“Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.” (Jude 5)

Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Build the church on himself? Happened long ago. Build the church on faith alone? That too. But now with the unbelievers gone, Jesus builds his church entirely on faith alone.
The unbelievers are gone? You need to read the seven churches of Revelations.
 

Phoneman777

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Play all the word games you want, it is still replacement theology and a lie.
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29

How can the people who today occupy the land of ancient Israel be "Abraham's seed"?
 
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charity

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Many find fault with those who claim Christendom is biblical Israel. Saying God did not replace Israel with the Church. This is true but it shows a misunderstanding of Israel's true identity.

“Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet [Christ]. You must obey him in everything.. Every person who does not obey that prophet will be destroyed and thus removed from the people [Israel].’” Ac 3:22–23

The church did not replace Israel. The Church is Israel. God removed the unbelievers from Israel and grafted believing gentiles into their place. Romans 11:17.

And, for the sake of the fathers, God reattaches the broken off but only through faith in Christ. For this Paul uses himself as an example, Romans 11:1–5. And as we preach the gospel to all nations until the end of the world Matthew 28:20 in this way, all Israel, believing Jew and gentile, will be saved Romans 11:26.

Hello @Dave L,

It is sad to read this thread, and see so much that is error. However you express it, with the word, 'removal' or, 'replacement', it is still error. I am not familiar with this form of error, so am not equipped to engage in debate upon it, but I must add my voice to it's refutal.

It is possible, by quoting verses out of their context, to prove just about anything; but God's Word must not be used in this way.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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brakelite

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Israel.

Who is true Israel? Is it the physical nation fighting for its existence in the Middle East, or is it the spiritual entity we know as the church. And if its the church, which one?

The name “Israel” first appears in the Bible in Genesis 32:28 After a night of wrestling with the heavenly visitor (who I personally believe to be Christ Himself) Jacob prevails in his efforts and his name is changed from Jacob, the deceiver or supplanter, to Israel, meaning he will rule. Jacob has prevailed with God and overcome.

At the time of this event, Jacob was reluctant to face Esau after 20 years of exile and was quite simply terrified of him. His former deception of his father and claim to be Esau was now playing on his conscience and he desired God’s blessing and forgiveness before proceeding. So the ‘Angel’ asks Jacob his name, to which he truthfully replies ‘my name is Jacob’. In this he was confessing his guilt, and God then knew he was a changed man, so gave him a new name that celebrated so to speak his victory over sin, self and his night of wrestling in prayer, the ‘Angel’ saying “for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.”
Israel, as a name therefore represents spiritual victory over sin.

This is significant as it tells us God’s purpose for His people. That is, to live in victory over sin, to show forth God’s true character to the world.

In Exod 4:22,23 Moses is instructed on how he is to speak to Pharaoh in order that Israel’s descendants may be freed from slavery. God says to Moses “and thou shalt say unto Pharaoh ‘Thus saith the Lord, Israel is My son, my firstborn and I say unto thee let My son go to serve me…”
This is the first time Israel is used in a corporate sense for the entire nation. Before it applied only to an individual, but here we see it being applied to his descendants. First to a victorious man, then to his people.
Did Israel live up to that name? What was God trying to accomplish in establishing Israel in the first place? Was it not that He would have a people to represent Him on the earth? Before God had His champions, but all failed. Sin interposed and no longer was any of God’s chosen able to fulfill the true destiny that God intended for them. Adam failed over appetite. So did Noah. Abraham also, but God was determined to establish a people after His own heart and show the gentiles His law, His mercy and grace and power. Interesting that Adam, Noah, and Israel all failed on points of appetite. (Gen 9:20,21; Exodus 16:27-29.)

It wasn’t until Jesus came on the scene in person that the title “Israel” in it’s truest spiritual sense and power could be rightly bestowed. And Mathew in particular showed this time and time again how Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT prophecies which may have originally applied to the nation, but now, according to Mathew’s inspired writings, applied in fact to Jesus. Examples are Hosea 11:1 ; Isaiah 41:8,42:1-3 .

Paul followed the same idea and reasoning by paralleling Col 1:15 with Ex 4:22, Gal 3:16 with Isaiah 41:8 and elsewhere.

Jesus Himself proclaimed Himself as the true vine, in fulfilment of Ps 80:8 which applied to the nation.
So now the mantle and authority once bestowed upon the nation has been given to Jesus. Jesus is the essence of true Israel. He only has the right to bear the name for He only has prevailed with sin and overcome. Jesus walked over the same ground that Israel walked, but came through victorious. In His temptations in the wilderness, it was appetite that came under particular scrutiny.

What Paul does in Romans and other writers in the NT however is extend that idea and show how the name Israel also now applies to Jesus’ descendants, just as it did to Jacob’s descendants. Peter also showed this when he compared the church to Exodus 19:6.(1 Peter 2:9).
So as Paul says, immediately after saying that Jesus is the ‘seed’ of Abraham, Gentile converts in Galatia were now also Abraham’s seed because they are Christ’s. They are also heirs according to the promise.
This is not ‘replacement ‘ theology. It is merely a revelation of who true Israel always was and who Israel is now. It is those people, of whatever nation kindred tongue and people, who by faith in the mercy grace and power of God overcome sin and receive Christ’s righteousness and forgiveness as a gift and are willing to share that gift with the lost. True Israel was always exclusively those who “as princes had power with God and men and prevailed”.

Thus the unfulfilled covenant that Jeremiah speaks of and repeated in hebrews, “I will place My laws in their hearts and in their minds I will write them” applies to the church, not a resurgent nation. All Israel will be saved, but the descendants of Jesus, not flesh and blood descendants of Jacob.

And the prophecies that most believe apply to the nation, apply to the church. For example, Armageddon is not the world arrayed against the nation of Israel, but the unsaved world (those who have accepted the mark) arrayed against the remnant who have refused the mark, and are under the sentence of death. Those who keep the commandments of God, (and thus have gained that victory over sin) and have the faith of Jesus. Rev.12:17; 14:12.
 
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Dave L

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Hello @Dave L,

It is sad to read this thread, and see so much that is error. However you express it, with the word, 'removal' or, 'replacement', it is still error. I am not familiar with this form of error, so am not equipped to engage in debate upon it, but I must add my voice to it's refutal.

It is possible, by quoting verses out of their context, to prove just about anything; but God's Word must not be used in this way.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
If you study the topic of circumcision in the OT. It made one a physical Jew and physical member of Israel. When Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, nothing remained to attach unbelievers to Israel. Israel in the New Covenant is believers in Christ only. So God broke off the unbelievers when he abolished circumcision. Later in Romans 11, God will reattach any who believe in Christ. And Paul says he is one of these along with thousands of broken off Jews in the first century. Look into it, you'll be glad you did. Thanks for reading my posts and for your comments.
 

Phoneman777

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Hello @Dave L,

It is sad to read this thread, and see so much that is error. However you express it, with the word, 'removal' or, 'replacement', it is still error. I am not familiar with this form of error, so am not equipped to engage in debate upon it, but I must add my voice to it's refutal.

It is possible, by quoting verses out of their context, to prove just about anything; but God's Word must not be used in this way.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hi, Charity, perhaps the most important reason today for believing that our friends in the land of Israel are still God's "chosen" is because of the belief that Literal Israel is at the center of end time prophecy.

The promise of Romans 11 is that a remnant of the Jews - the "natural branches" which have been broken off through unbelief - upon witnessing what was their blessing now rest upon the Gentiles, will come to Jesus and be grafted into Jesus by joining "Spiritual Israel" - the church - without the slightest intimation of any national restoration.

Those who believe Literal Israel still occupies a prominent place in end time prophecy are following Jesuit Futurism and ought to join the catholic church. Protestantism has never subscribed to Jesuit Futurism or Jesuit Preterism, but has always been subscribed to Protestant Historicism, no matter how many so called "Protestants" (who are no longer protesting) have fallen for Jesuit Francisco Ribera's errors.
 
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Dave L

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maybe he worships Boaz too?
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.” (1 Corinthians 2:14–16)
 
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VictoryinJesus

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maybe he worships Boaz too?

I’m not sure what you mean? Through inspiration of the Holy Spirit ... Boaz shows us (through the word) our kinsman redeemer which is Christ.

Ruth 4:13-15
[13] So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the Lord gave her conception, and she bare a son. [14] And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed be the Lord , which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel. [15] And he shall be unto thee a restorer of thy life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him.

Oh...left off
Ruth 4:16
[16] And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.
 
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