Removal Theology not Replacement Theology

[CoreIssue]

What's the difference? Spell it out.

You think Israel and church are the same thing. So you mean restore, not graft in.

Israel is a nation, the church is not. There there is no church knew tribulation or MK. Both are distinctly different in the New Jerusalem. Two heirs in the body of Christ, not one.

Nowhere are they ever defined as the same.

 

[Dave L]

You think Israel and church are the same thing. So you mean restore, not graft in.

Israel is a nation, the church is not. There there is no church knew tribulation or MK. Both are distinctly different in the New Jerusalem. Two heirs in the body of Christ, not one.

Nowhere are they ever defined as the same.

Jesus abolished the nation when he abolished circumcision. Only believers remain under Christ.

 

[CoreIssue]

He did not abolish it. He put a temporary hold on it.

It was restored in 1948. The OT and revelations are loaded with prophecies about Israel.

The land covenant is yet to be fulfilled. The Davidic covenant is yet to be fulfilled.

Circumcision did not establish Israel.

Israel is an heir in the body of Christ. Gentiles are never called Israel.

The 24 Elders of Israel are on thrones in heaven in Revelations. The 12 tribes of Israel are the foundations of the New Jerusalem.

You are trying to overturn eternal covenants established by God.

 

[tooldtocare]

It was restored in 1948. The OT and revelations are loaded with prophecies about Israel.

The prophecies you speak about came with conditions. You can find the word “if”; if you do this you will receive that and “if” not you will receive the other.

(Deu 7:6 KJV) For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

(Deu 7:7 KJV) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

(Deu 7:8 KJV) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh King of Egypt.

(Deu 7:12 KJV) Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he swore unto thy fathers:

(Deu 7:13 KJV) And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kin, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.

This is the other side of the coin---

Ezekiel 21:32
Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.

I honestly believe Israel is being judged right now and we will be witnesses to His final judgement.

CoreIssue, I have my belief on what that final judgement will be, what do you believe-?

 

[CoreIssue]

The prophecies you speak about came with conditions. You can find the word “if”; if you do this you will receive that and “if” not you will receive the other.

(Deu 7:6 KJV) For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

(Deu 7:7 KJV) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

(Deu 7:8 KJV) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh King of Egypt.

(Deu 7:12 KJV) Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he swore unto thy fathers:

(Deu 7:13 KJV) And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kin, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.

This is the other side of the coin---

Ezekiel 21:32
Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.

I honestly believe Israel is being judged right now and we will be witnesses to His final judgement.

CoreIssue, I have my belief on what that final judgement will be, what do you believe-?

Abrahamic was unconditional.

Revelations shall happen.

Israel shall be restored. The current status of Israel shall change, they will once again the covenant nation.

What are the different covenants in the Bible?

 

[Episkopos]

Land covenant with the Abraham was unconditional.

Revelations shall happen.

Israel shall be restored. The current status of Israel show change, they will once again the covenant nation.

What are the different covenants in the Bible?

The land covenants were fulfilled already. Don't live in the past.

Joshua 21:43 So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there.

1 Kings 4:21 And Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the Euphrates River to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of Egypt. These countries brought tribute and were Solomon's subjects all his life.




Also...don't be fooled by a name or a flag. The Israel of today is not the Israel of prophecy. This political move has fooled many people...just as putting a sign on a building saying..."church" has fooled many people as well.

A spiritual people sees beyond what men are doing.

 

[CoreIssue]

6. The Fulfillment Of The Abrahamic Covenant

 

[Heart2Soul]

For clarity Acts 7:38 is talking about old testament history. Nothing new testament.

For clarity Acts 7:38 is talking about old testament history. Nothing new testament.

"The church in the wilderness ... This is not a reference to the church of Christ, but to the congregation of Israel in the wilderness which is typical of Christ's church. They had been baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea (1 Corinthians 10:2); and their testing during the wilderness wanderings was typical of the testing of Christians during their present probation." Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible

The Church did not exist in the old testament.

They were referenced as synagogues...…if you are referring to a place of assembly...
"By the first century, synagogues emerge as the central institution of Jewish life once the Temple is destroyed, a place where study, worship, meeting, celebration, and civic meetings take place. There were synagogues not only in Babylonia, but in Alexandria and throughout the Land of Israel, in places such as Dora, Caesarea, Nazareth and Capernaum (the last four are mentioned by Josephus). The Talmud tells us that, at the time of the Destruction of the Second Temple, there were 394 synagogues in Jerusalem alone.

Synagogues have, for over two millennium, served as the locus for Jewish life. They have combined the functions of House of Worship, House of Study, with those of philanthropy, social services, socializing, and community gathering place. Even in the darkest times, in the ghettos during World War II, and in Concentration Camps during the Holocaust, Jews have established synagogues to enable Jews to come together for prayer and study, that they might keep God's eternal covenant with Israel."
Untitled Document

 

[tooldtocare]

Jews have established synagogues to enable Jews to come together for prayer and study, that they might keep God's eternal covenant with Israel."

That covenant was based on conditions. The Bible is full of God's commandments to the Jews together with warnings should they fail to follow His word. I have researched this and I have discovered that they have failed.

25 And you, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,

26 Thus says the Lord GOD; Remove the turban, and take off the crown: this shall not remain the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.

27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he comes whose right it is; and I will give it to him.

31 And I will pour out my indignation upon you, I will blow against you in the fire of my wrath, and deliver you into the hand of brutal men, skilful to destroy.

32 You shall be for fuel to the fire; your blood shall be in the midst of the land; you shall be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.

THE END

 

[Heart2Soul]

That covenant was based on conditions. The Bible is full of God's commandments to the Jews together with warnings should they fail to follow His word. I have researched this and I have discovered that they have failed.

25 And you, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,

26 Thus says the Lord GOD; Remove the turban, and take off the crown: this shall not remain the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.

27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he comes whose right it is; and I will give it to him.

31 And I will pour out my indignation upon you, I will blow against you in the fire of my wrath, and deliver you into the hand of brutal men, skilful to destroy.

32 You shall be for fuel to the fire; your blood shall be in the midst of the land; you shall be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.

THE END

The point of that post was to show there were churches in the OT....an assembly of people who came to a place to study and worship.

 

[Phoneman777]

"All Israel" = all twelve tribes of Israel. See the prophecy of Ezekiel.

EZEKIEL 48
1Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan.
2 And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher.
3 And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali.
4 And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh.
5 And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim.
6 And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben.
7 And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah...
13 And over against the border of the priests the Levites shall have five and twenty thousand in length, and ten thousand in breadth: all the lengths hall be five and twenty thousand, and the breadth ten thousand...
22 Moreover from the possession of the Levites, and from the possession of the city, being in the midst of that which is the prince's, between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin, shall be for the prince.
23 As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin shall have a portion.
24 And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon shall have a portion.
25 And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a portion.
26 And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a portion.
27 And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a portion.
28 And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of strife in Kadesh, and to the river toward the great sea.
29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD.

Only those who are believers -- a believing remnant will be saved. And actually one-third of all Jews at the time of the second coming of Christ will be saved.
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zech 13:8,9).

So, the "all Israel shall be saved" does not actually refer to "all"?

 

[CoreIssue]

So, the "all Israel shall be saved" does not actually refer to "all"?

Yes it does. Is referring to the Jews still live at the second coming. 2/3 died during the AC persecutions of the Trib.

When they see him they finally accept him as messiah.

 

[Dave L]

He did not abolish it. He put a temporary hold on it.

It was restored in 1948. The OT and revelations are loaded with prophecies about Israel.

The land covenant is yet to be fulfilled. The Davidic covenant is yet to be fulfilled.

Circumcision did not establish Israel.

Israel is an heir in the body of Christ. Gentiles are never called Israel.

The 24 Elders of Israel are on thrones in heaven in Revelations. The 12 tribes of Israel are the foundations of the New Jerusalem.

You are trying to overturn eternal covenants established by God.

If you study circumcision, it made one a Physical member of Abraham's seed. All of Abraham's servants, unrelated to him, became his covenant seed through circumcision. Only Ishmael was related to him at the time. And God broke off any who were not circumcised. This carried over into the Mosaic Covenant until God abolished circumcision on the cross, leaving only believers, those circumcised in heart under the New Covenant. Paul, the disciples and the thousands of Jewish believers who accepted Christ as the Messiah. Those who did not became Antichrists according to John.

So the only biblical Israel today are we who believe in Jesus. The broken off unbelievers remain gentiles until they accept Christ. Only then does God graft them back into Israel - Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

If you study circumcision, it made one a Physical member of Abraham's seed. All of Abraham's servants, unrelated to him, became his covenant seed through circumcision. Only Ishmael was related to him at the time. And God broke off any who were not circumcised. This carried over into the Mosaic Covenant until God abolished circumcision on the cross, leaving only believers, those circumcised in heart under the New Covenant. Paul, the disciples and the thousands of Jewish believers who accepted Christ as the Messiah. Those who did not became Antichrists according to John.

So the only biblical Israel today are we who believe in Jesus. The broken off unbelievers remain gentiles until they accept Christ. Only then does God graft them back into Israel - Christ.

...Only if they are faithful to Christ.

A lack of faithfulness to Christ makes circumcision to be uncircumcision.

And faithfulness to Christ makes uncircumcision to BE circumcision.

 

[CoreIssue]

What does the Bible say about circumcision? What is the Christian view of circumcision?

 

[Dave L]

What does the Bible say about circumcision? What is the Christian view of circumcision?

Got Questions are Dispensationalists and interpret scripture along those lines. So I cannot benefit from anything they say in most instances. But I use them for history and other matters.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Got Questions are Dispensationalists and interpret scripture along those lines. So I cannot benefit from anything they say in most instances. But I use them for history and other matters.

I wanted to ask you about the LEB version of the bible....I clicked on scriptures you had referenced and it took me to that web site.....I spent an hour researching who the author or teacher of this translation was, whether there were any discrepancies in the translation, and how it translates in other languages besides English.....this is a fairly new version of the Bible. Why did you choose to study from it.

 

[Dave L]

I wanted to ask you about the LEB version of the bible....I clicked on scriptures you had referenced and it took me to that web site.....I spent an hour researching who the author or teacher of this translation was, whether there were any discrepancies in the translation, and how it translates in other languages besides English.....this is a fairly new version of the Bible. Why did you choose to study from it.

I use the KJV and NET bible translations. I might use Lexam or others for clarity at times.

 

[CoreIssue]

Translation Comparison Charts

I use the NIV and the NASB. Paraphrase bibles are not for serious study.

 

[CoreIssue]

Got Questions are Dispensationalists and interpret scripture along those lines. So I cannot benefit from anything they say in most instances. But I use them for history and other matters.

The verses speak for themselves.