Requirements

[aspen]

People have argued over and over again about what it takes to be saved and if salvation is instant and permanent or a process, which can be lost.

I am interested in the requirements that must be fulfilled to be a Christian. It seems to me that for many people who claim that we only need to follow Christ to be a Christian, there are actually many more requirements - reading the Bible, interpreting it literally, throwing out any ideas that conflict with the Bible, etc

So please, help me out.

 

[Hollyrock]

People have argued over and over again about what it takes to be saved and if salvation is instant and permanent or a process, which can be lost.

I am interested in the requirements that must be fulfilled to be a Christian. It seems to me that for many people who claim that we only need to follow Christ to be a Christian, there are actually many more requirements - reading the Bible, interpreting it literally, throwing out any ideas that conflict with the Bible, etc

So please, help me out.

Hi aspen2...Happy Sunday !!! I think Jesus filled the main requirement on the Cross and all we have to do is receive it. Acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God and that He was raised from the dead...repent and ask Him to forgive your sin and to come into your heart to be your Lord and Savior. Then you get about the business of getting to know the Lord through prayer and His Word. Pray for God to show you where He wants you to go to Church, a place where you can learn the mind of Christ and grow in the things of God.

 

[Thomas Kelly guessed]

aspen2,

Parts of the answer.

Matthew 7:12

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

New International Version (NIV)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7&version=NIV

NPNF1-10. St. Chrysostom: Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew

Homily LXXVIII.

Matt. XXV. 1-30.

For the talents here are each person’s ability, whether in the way of protection, or in money, or in teaching, or in what thing soever of the kind. Let no man say, I have but one talent, and can do nothing; for thou canst even by one approve thyself. For thou art not poorer than that widow; thou art not more uninstructed than Peter and John, who were both “unlearned and ignorant men;” but nevertheless, since they showed forth a zeal, and did all things for the common good, they attained to Heaven. For nothing is so pleasing to God, as to live for the common advantage.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LXXV.html

 

[Foreigner]

Topics like this would go so much smoother if the person that started the topic by asking questions on a belief or position, would start by giving the concrete specifics of THEIR beliefs on the topic first.

How 'bout it Aspen.

And please don't say, "I have give my position here numberously already."

Most everyone else has, too, which, according to that response, makes this thread null and void anyway.

 

[Episkopos]

Believing INTO Christ.

 

[aspen]

the process of Justification - God loving us first; the process of sanctification - returning God's love and loving neighbor.

 

[Episkopos]

Believing INTO Christ.

And loving the brethren.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

 

[Strat]

Love and truth,and a love for the truth...love without truth is a lie while truth without love may be most unpleasant but is still the truth...it reminds me of a conversation i had once about what mattered most in music,words or the music that accompanied it...i told them that words without music is poetry but music without words is still music and can speak a lanquage of its own.

 

[aspen]

Love and truth,and a love for the truth...love without truth is a lie while truth without love may be most unpleasant but is still the truth...it reminds me of a conversation i had once about what mattered most in music,words or the music that accompanied it...i told them that words without music is poetry but music without words is still music and can speak a lanquage of its own.

Truth without love is meaningless. It is like mistaking a picture for a real person. Truth with out love is what the Pharisees promoted - they were dead right. Nothing but a clanging gong.

Love without truth is not possible - it is only self love. Without God, we cannot stop focusing on ourselves long enough to focus on God or anyone else.

The fact is, love and truth are not opposites. Perfect love is the highest truth. If we loved perfectly there would be no sin. Just like if a car ran perfectly it would be impossible for it to breakdown.

The Bible points to the highest truth - God, who is love. If the Bible is pointing to our knowledge of the truth and not God, we are still focused on self.

 

[Rach1370]

People have argued over and over again about what it takes to be saved and if salvation is instant and permanent or a process, which can be lost.

I am interested in the requirements that must be fulfilled to be a Christian. It seems to me that for many people who claim that we only need to follow Christ to be a Christian, there are actually many more requirements - reading the Bible, interpreting it literally, throwing out any ideas that conflict with the Bible, etc

So please, help me out.

The requirements to BE a Christian...simple. A belief in the saving grace of Christ, and repentance from our sins.
The complication comes I think from the expectations of how we are to live ONCE we are saved.
I believe in this there two dangers...to let our salvation excuse licentiousness, and to also fall back on the false idea that the way we live somehow adds to what Christ has done...that to measure up to the salvation we need to live like (....).
Both are fallacies. The living of a life 'worthy' of Christ comes to all of us truly saved in the form of the urging and conviction of the Spirit. Yes, there are things we should do, but they show our salvation, not lead to it. The knowledge of the law and of the good things Christ wants from us (like sound doctrine and how a Christian should live), should grow us, but it should also bring us to the knowledge that living this way is only possible through the Spirit. Therefore, not only does our salvation come from God, but the ability to live in a manner worthy of Jesus also comes from Him. This takes away any pride of ours, giving glory to him for everything...and that's exactly the way He intended it!

 

[aspen]

The requirements to BE a Christian...simple. A belief in the saving grace of Christ, and repentance from our sins.
The complication comes I think from the expectations of how we are to live ONCE we are saved.
I believe in this there two dangers...to let our salvation excuse licentiousness, and to also fall back on the false idea that the way we live somehow adds to what Christ has done...that to measure up to the salvation we need to live like (....).
Both are fallacies. The living of a life 'worthy' of Christ comes to all of us truly saved in the form of the urging and conviction of the Spirit. Yes, there are things we should do, but they show our salvation, not lead to it. The knowledge of the law and of the good things Christ wants from us (like sound doctrine and how a Christian should live), should grow us, but it should also bring us to the knowledge that living this way is only possible through the Spirit. Therefore, not only does our salvation come from God, but the ability to live in a manner worthy of Jesus also comes from Him. This takes away any pride of ours, giving glory to him for everything...and that's exactly the way He intended it!

I agree with most of your post. However, I think there is more than two pitfalls involved in trying to live selflessly or Christian.....one of them I can think of is making demands on other Christians and even nonbelievers! Instead of leading by example, I think we can easily start making decisions for other people about what it means to be a Christian or even a neighbor of a Christian. IMO, this can lead right back to focus on self rather than focus on God.

Another problem I have fallen into personally is falling away from prayer. Sometimes it is easier to focus on my neighbor at the expense of spending time with God. This has lead me into times of burnout because I start relying on my own resources - which then leads to relying on the opinions of others rather than God's love as the source of my esteem. Regular and frequent prayer has to be the center of my Christian life or I simply cannot make it through my day or life.

 

[Rach1370]

I agree with most of your post. However, I think there is more than two pitfalls involved in trying to live selflessly or Christian.....one of them I can think of is making demands on other Christians and even nonbelievers! Instead of leading by example, I think we can easily start making decisions for other people about what it means to be a Christian or even a neighbor of a Christian. IMO, this can lead right back to focus on self rather than focus on God.

Another problem I have fallen into personally is falling away from prayer. Sometimes it is easier to focus on my neighbor at the expense of spending time with God. This has lead me into times of burnout because I start relying on my own resources - which then leads to relying on the opinions of others rather than God's love as the source of my esteem. Regular and frequent prayer has to be the center of my Christian life or I simply cannot make it through my day or life.

You're definitely right...these things are problems...but I tend to think that they could both fall under legalism...trying to 'follow' the rules under your own power and pride. When we feel we are doing these things under our own steam, it's easy to become self righteous and believe you are better than others, who should be doing (....).
Prayer is a sticky problem...one that I think can fall under legalism if we're not careful (I must pray x hours a day or I'm not good enough)...but then there's the problem that if we don't set aside time to pray, we tend not too! As you say, I think we tend to start drowning in the world if we don't make prayer a daily part of life. Setting aside time for bible reading will most likely urge us to heartfelt prayer...in which we grow closer to Jesus through His message and in that quiet time, hear from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Strat]

Truth without love is meaningless. It is like mistaking a picture for a real person. Truth with out love is what the Pharisees promoted - they were dead right. Nothing but a clanging gong.

Love without truth is not possible - it is only self love. Without God, we cannot stop focusing on ourselves long enough to focus on God or anyone else.

The fact is, love and truth are not opposites. Perfect love is the highest truth. If we loved perfectly there would be no sin. Just like if a car ran perfectly it would be impossible for it to breakdown.

The Bible points to the highest truth - God, who is love. If the Bible is pointing to our knowledge of the truth and not God, we are still focused on self.

If what you say is true then there was no reason for Jesus to die on the cross...Jesus obeyed the law(truth) and by his willingness(love) to go to the cross we are saved.....try as hard as you wish Aspen,to prove that "love" is a free wheeling,free lunch,free for all but it is not...in order for love to work there has to be order and reason to it and those who truely love will love the law and the law giver that created it with no exceptions or excuses.

 

[aspen]

If what you say is true then there was no reason for Jesus to die on the cross...Jesus obeyed the law(truth) and by his willingness(love) to go to the cross we are saved.....try as hard as you wish Aspen,to prove that "love" is a free wheeling,free lunch,free for all but it is not...in order for love to work there has to be order and reason to it and those who truely love will love the law and the law giver that created it with no exceptions or excuses.

Jesus died on the cross because He loves us - it was the ultimate act of love. Like Paul said, laying down your life for another is the ultimate act of love. Jesus would have come for us regardless, we just happened to murder Him because we are fallen.

Perfect love (focus on the Father) is reason and order.

 

[Strat]

Jesus died on the cross because He loves us - it was the ultimate act of love. Like Paul said, laying down your life for another is the ultimate act of love. Jesus would have come for us regardless, we just happened to murder Him because we are fallen.

Perfect love (focus on the Father) is reason and order.

Well of course,no mention of the law and Jesus obeying it perfectly so he could pay our sin debt and satisfy the justice of God because thats not warm,fuzzy and sappy enough...you use the word "requirement" yet as always think there arn't any.

 

[aspen]

Well of course,no mention of the law and Jesus obeying it perfectly so he could pay our sin debt and satisfy the justice of God because thats not warm,fuzzy and sappy enough...you use the word "requirement" yet as always think there arn't any.

The law is to love. We only feel the affects of the law when we are not following it. Only Jesus could love perfectly on Earth - we cannot - we need a Savior. It is sad to see that you do not value love, nor do you think it is a requirement.

 

[Strat]

The law is to love. We only feel the affects of the law when we are not following it. Only Jesus could love perfectly on Earth - we cannot - we need a Savior. It is sad to see that you do not value love, nor do you think it is a requirement.

It is equally sad to see that you believe love requires nothing and cost nothing...Jesus loved perfectly but he also obeyed the law perfectly and neither me you or anyone else will ever see the Kingdom of God apart from the perect obedience to that law...first credited to us in this life through Jesus then in our resurrected life where we will be like Jesus and will also obey the law perfectly....no sin will be allowed in heaven....no sin means perfect obedience.... go ahead and do all you can to do away with the law and when you teach others to do the same you will both wind up in the same place.

Let me clarify since it has been siggested that i do so....the law does not save...God so LOVED the world that he sent his only begotten son,the only one who could obey his law perfectly to take the place of sinful men and satisfy his justice,now the one who is redeemed has turned form sin and loves the law of God even tho he cannot obey it perfectly his desire is to do so.

The one who has not turned form sin winks at the law,mocks it and despises it thinking that what he considers to be cheap grace and easy grace,a blasphemy within itself, will excuse his sin while he continues to practise it....he or she will find out differently....when Jesus says depart from me i never knew you to those who claimed to be christians and calls them workers of iniquity it will not be becauase they did not obey the law perfectly but because they never had any regard for it to start with...it never found a place in their heart.

 

[aspen]

Strat said

It is equally sad to see that you believe love requires nothing and cost nothing

Hmm....I think giving up a life focused on self is giving up a lot. In fact it can feel like a death. Repentance is turning from self towards God and that means actively loving Him and our neighbor - that is quite a requirement.

Jesus loved perfectly but he also obeyed the law perfectly

Yes, He obeyed the law perfectly BECAUSE He loved perfectly.

and neither me you or anyone else will ever see the Kingdom of God apart from the perect obedience to that law

Absolutely correct.

first credited to us in this life through Jesus then in our resurrected life where we will be like Jesus and will also obey the law perfectly....no sin will be allowed in heaven....no sin means perfect obedience.... go ahead and do all you can to do away with the law and when you teach others to do the same you will both wind up in the same place.

And what is perfect obedience? Love, of course.

 

[Strat]

Strat said

It is equally sad to see that you believe love requires nothing and cost nothing

Hmm....I think giving up a life focused on self is giving up a lot. In fact it can feel like a death. Repentance is turning from self towards God and that means actively loving Him and our neighbor - that is quite a requirement.

Jesus loved perfectly but he also obeyed the law perfectly

Yes, He obeyed the law perfectly BECAUSE He loved perfectly.

and neither me you or anyone else will ever see the Kingdom of God apart from the perect obedience to that law

Absolutely correct.

first credited to us in this life through Jesus then in our resurrected life where we will be like Jesus and will also obey the law perfectly....no sin will be allowed in heaven....no sin means perfect obedience.... go ahead and do all you can to do away with the law and when you teach others to do the same you will both wind up in the same place.

And what is perfect obedience? Love, of course.

Are you fullfilling that perfectly with equal regard to truth as well as love ? when people walk away from you do they know you serve a God of perfect justice as well as perfect love ? do they know all of the God you serve or only part of him ? do they know his hatred of sin as well as his love for the sinner ?

 

[Rach1370]

Are you fullfilling that perfectly with equal regard to truth as well as love ? when people walk away from you do they know you serve a God of perfect justice as well as perfect love ? do they know all of the God you serve or only part of him ? do they know his hatred of sin as well as his love for the sinner ?

These are very good points Strat. Yes, I think too often people forget this about God. "A loving God wouldn't send people to hell", they say. But we forget...God is all loving...perfect love. He cannot, then, ignore and brush away perfect justice. It's like a scale in perfect balance, one side must be equal to the other. A god without justice to equal his love is a weak god....and that's not our God!
We know sin is abhorrent to God...we know it to be bad enough that Jesus had to come to die for us...that is a pretty big price. To say that God is not just...that he doesn't require punishment for this sin...is to make a mockery out of Jesus' sacrifice.