Rev 21:14 Names of 12 Apostles on the Foundations?

[Wrangler]

I was struck by this verse in today's devotional reading and wondered if it included Judas?

 

[Tommy Cool]

I lean towards no... but ...we just don't know.
He was an apostle, but even though he was forgiven by the Lord.... he was replace by Matthias.

 

[Wrangler]

I too lean on no. I was surprised the NSRV Study Notes had nothing to say about this.

Then again, the sons of Israel sold their brother into slavery. And they are said to be inscribed on the gates in v12.

 

[shilohsfoal]

I believe Jesus chose to replace Judas with Paul.Im pretty sure Judas name wouldn't be written in heaven at all.

 

[Tommy Cool]

I believe Jesus chose to replace Judas with Paul.Im pretty sure Judas name wouldn't be written in heaven at all.

Maybe …maybe not.

Here is the problem with that. If Jesus did not want to have the apostles replace Judas with Matthias... Jesus would have let them know beforehand …. That is assuming Judas did hang himself shortly after returning the 30 pieces of silver.

But the obverse to that is …..that Judas did not die then, of which there is substantial biblical proof that Judas was alive up until Christ was taken up (ascension). Then it would have been up to the Apostles to select the replacement…. according to Psa 109:8.

I have heard several people bring that up regarding Paul … and I don’t know. Certainly, from a sense knowledge perspective, Paul was an incredible man of God who gave his all … but what about Matthias. Just because he got in by default and there is not much written about him (as is the case about a few of the apostles) we just don’t know. Some would say yes…. but Jesus witnessed to Paul, which is true, But Matthias was a faithful disciple, and you could say that he also was picked by Jesus as the fulfillment to prophecy.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Maybe …maybe not.

Here is the problem with that. If Jesus did not want to have the apostles replace Judas with Matthias... Jesus would have let them know beforehand …. That is assuming Judas did hang himself shortly after returning the 30 pieces of silver.

But the obverse to that is …..that Judas did not die then, of which there is substantial biblical proof that Judas was alive up until Christ was taken up (ascension). Then it would have been up to the Apostles to select the replacement…. according to Psa 109:8.

I have heard several people bring that up regarding Paul … and I don’t know. Certainly, from a sense knowledge perspective, Paul was an incredible man of God who gave his all … but what about Matthias. Just because he got in by default and there is not much written about him (as is the case about a few of the apostles) we just don’t know. Some would say yes…. but Jesus witnessed to Paul, which is true, But Matthias was a faithful disciple, and you could say that he also was picked by Jesus as the fulfillment to prophecy.

Psalms 109 does not say it is the apostles who chose Jesus apostles.Jesus said himself that he chose his apostles.He never gave anyone else authority to chose.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I was struck by this verse in today's devotional reading and wondered if it included Judas?

Matthias was chosen by lots to replace Judas Wrangler. Paul was an apostle as well, but was never referred to as one of the twelve.

 

[Wrangler]

Matthias was chosen by lots to replace Judas Wrangler. Paul was an apostle as well, but was never referred to as one of the twelve.

Right. The verse has no qualifier, like replacement Apostle.

Also in v12, it says the names of the tribes of Israel will be written on the gates to New Jerusalem. Those who wanted to kill their brother and actually sold him into slavery are not excluded. What would it say about God's grace is only those through which his story unfolded WHO WERE PERFECT were honored in eternity?

 

[bbyrd009]

yes, Judas is one of the foundations, believe it or not
I chose all of you, and one of you is a devil! paraphrased

 

[Tommy Cool]

Psalms 109 does not say it is the apostles who chose Jesus apostles.Jesus said himself that he chose his apostles.He never gave anyone else authority to chose.

The selection of Matthias can more clearly be seen in the scripture.

Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.


The qualification

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.


Pray and give it to the Lord.

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen.

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

*Since there are a few ways, lots can be cast…. we don’t know the exact method used. The common method of casting lots was to write the names of the persons on pieces of stone, wood, or something else and put them in a urn with other blank pieces. The names (or name in this case) was then drawn.

*They followed scripture
*They did their best in the senses realm to narrow the field.
*And then they prayed …. Leaving it up to the Lord.



Tidbit

(v26) He was numbered = sygkatapsēphizomai ....this verb is used only once and means…. to have one's inclusion collectively accounted for.

Who was involved in this? …. The apostles, disciples, and the Lord.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I was struck by this verse in today's devotional reading and wondered if it included Judas?

The apostles knew the answer would be no, that is why they endeavored to get a new 12th member.

Acts 1:
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;
and,

‘Let another take his office.’

 

[shilohsfoal]

The selection of Matthias can more clearly be seen in the scripture.

Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.


The qualification

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.


Pray and give it to the Lord.

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen.

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

*Since there are a few ways, lots can be cast…. we don’t know the exact method used. The common method of casting lots was to write the names of the persons on pieces of stone, wood, or something else and put them in a urn with other blank pieces. The names (or name in this case) was then drawn.

*They followed scripture
*They did their best in the senses realm to narrow the field.
*And then they prayed …. Leaving it up to the Lord.



Tidbit

(v26) He was numbered = sygkatapsēphizomai ....this verb is used only once and means…. to have one's inclusion collectively accounted for.

Who was involved in this? …. The apostles, disciples, and the Lord.

While the apostles were casting lots,Jesus went and converted Paul to be his twelfth apostle.

I guess Peter didn't know his Lord could still chose his own apostle.

 

[Tommy Cool]

While the apostles were casting lots,Jesus went and converted Paul to be his twelfth apostle.

I guess Peter didn't know his Lord could still chose his own apostle.

Paul's conversion was at minimum 5 years from from the day of Pentecost...

I have not seen in the Bible where is say's Paul is one of the 12. HIs apostle(ship) was a gift ministry ...actually as far as I can tell from the Word Paul had all 5 of the gift ministries → prophet, teacher, evangelist, paster and apostle. That is service to Gods people on a horizontal level.

If God was appointing Paul as one of the 12 Apostles…. it might have been mentioned in Act 26:16-18 ….but it’s not.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

While the apostles were casting lots,Jesus went and converted Paul to be his twelfth apostle.

I guess Peter didn't know his Lord could still chose his own apostle.

Yes, I doubt that Peter heard the voice of God telling him to choose another apostle by gambling. It is interesting that only the facts were given in the account and nothing about the will of God.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Paul's conversion was at minimum 5 years from from the day of Pentecost...

I have not seen in the Bible where is say's Paul is one of the 12. HIs apostle(ship) was a gift ministry ...actually as far as I can tell from the Word Paul had all 5 of the gift ministries → prophet, teacher, evangelist, paster and apostle. That is service to Gods people on a horizontal level.

If God was appointing Paul as one of the 12 Apostles…. it might have been mentioned in Act 26:16-18 ….but it’s not.

Same with Barnabas. He is also mentioned as an apostle. I imagine also Apollos.

 

[Tommy Cool]

Same with Barnabas. He is also mentioned as an apostle. I imagine also Apollos.

Gift ministry of an Apostle: One that goes out into the world – teaches God’s word, casts out devil spirits, raises the dead, establishes churches. Divinely appointed founders of the church….brings new light to a dark nation. Mat 10:1-10, Mar 3:14-19, Luk 6:13-16…Paul 1Co 15:6-8, a chosen vessel in Act 9:15

 

[shilohsfoal]

Paul's conversion was at minimum 5 years from from the day of Pentecost...

I have not seen in the Bible where is say's Paul is one of the 12. HIs apostle(ship) was a gift ministry ...actually as far as I can tell from the Word Paul had all 5 of the gift ministries → prophet, teacher, evangelist, paster and apostle. That is service to Gods people on a horizontal level.

If God was appointing Paul as one of the 12 Apostles…. it might have been mentioned in Act 26:16-18 ….but it’s not.

If Christ had chosen Mathias as an apostle,then Christ perhaps should have told someone.I don't remember Mathias ever confessing to be an apostle.
Where exactly does Christ chose Mathias as an apostle in the Bible?

 

[shilohsfoal]

Gift ministry of an Apostle: One that goes out into the world – teaches God’s word, casts out devil spirits, raises the dead, establishes churches. Divinely appointed founders of the church….brings new light to a dark nation. Mat 10:1-10, Mar 3:14-19, Luk 6:13-16…Paul 1Co 15:6-8, a chosen vessel in Act 9:15

I think Christ has to chose an apostle.I don't believe you can just throw dice or lots and let the dice decide.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

While the apostles were casting lots,Jesus went and converted Paul to be his twelfth apostle.

I guess Peter didn't know his Lord could still chose his own apostle.

I've always thought that "casting lots" was a pagan thing seeing as the Roman soldiers cast lots for the robe of Jesus, but just now I looked up "cast lots" and a lot of scriptures came up in the Old Testament about casting lots before the Lord! So I guess Mathias is one of the official 12.

Can't say as I like it seeing as we don't hear a peep out of him and it has been my mindset for my whole life, but for the Lord's sake that is the last bad thing I'll say against him being an apostle! I will accept Matthias as being an apostle and his name being on one of the 12 layers.

 

[shilohsfoal]

I've always thought that "casting lots" was a pagan thing seeing as the Roman soldiers cast lots for the robe of Jesus, but just now I looked up "cast lots" and a lot of scriptures came up in the Old Testament about casting lots before the Lord! So I guess Mathias is one of the official 12.

Can't say as I like it seeing as we don't hear a peep out of him and it has been my mindset for my whole life, but for the Lord's sake that is the last bad thing I'll say against him being an apostle! I will accept Matthias as being an apostle and his name being on one of the 12 layers.

Well,if you go out and talk some more people into casting lots before the Lord,then you might just chose apostle number twelve.The Lord probably won't say anything about it just like that day.

I think I will put my money on the horse that Christ chose.