Rev 21:14 Names of 12 Apostles on the Foundations?

[1stCenturyLady]

2. Language Usage - no qualifier for the 12 Apostles. As explained in post #38, there is no qualifier of replacement Apostles.

The apostles knew the answer would be no, that is why they endeavored to get a new 12th member.
Acts 1:
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;
and,
‘Let another take his office.’

They are certainly insufficient argument for Matthias and Paul due to the fact that the math does not add up. The Scripture verse explicitly says 12 Apostles. So, if you subtract Judas and add Matthias and Paul, you end up with 13.

What I meant was that there were solid reasons for EITHER Matthias OR Paul, not both as numbered. That doesn't mean that there were only 12, but by the start of the Church on the Day of Pentecost, there were 12.

Acts 1: 26
26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

 

[Aunty Jane]

2. Language Usage - no qualifier for the 12 Apostles. As explained in post #38, there is no qualifier of replacement Apostles.

3. Definition - The 3 Stooges (definite article, THE). Like point 1, when we refer to THE 12 Apostles, it means the original 12 that Jesus picked - no matter how bad one of them acted. "The" 3 stooges are Moe, Larry and Curly. Any talk of a replacement Stooge, Shemp, is not what is meant by the phrase. Same with the Apostles.

• Rationalizations that THE 12 Apostles refer to some replacement Apostles and some of the Apostles selected by Jesus does not hold up to scrutiny. From Apostle - Wikipedia, In Christianity, the term was used in the New Testament for Jesus' Twelve Apostles, the Apostles that Jesus selected.

Please remember that “the twelve” was the number, not the individuals. The choosing of Matthias to replace Judas was by the casting of lots, which was left to God to decide who would fill Judas’ position.

An apostle is literally “one sent forth” which is why Paul could call Jesus an “apostle”. (Heb 3:1)
Wiki is not your best source of information on this.

At 2 Cor 11:5 Paul makes mention of “superfine” or “superlative apostles”......
“For I consider that I have not proved inferior to your superfine apostles in a single thing.”

2 Cor 12:11...
“I have become unreasonable. You compelled me to, for I ought to have been recommended by you. For I did not prove to be inferior to your superfine apostles in a single thing, even if I am nothing.”

Paul was defending himself because these “apostles” were trying to undermine his authority and his teachings. Paul’s choosing was unique....no other apostle was given such a specific ministry and no other apostle had the education that Paul had, which would be used by Jesus to preach to the learned ones of the Gentiles. We see this in his masterful speech to the “men of Athens”. Humble fishermen would have been laughed out of the place.
He was also used to write more scripture that the other apostles. Interestingly, out of the 12, only Matthew, John and Peter wrote NT books. That doesn’t mean that the others did not carry out an equal ministry, it just means that their writings, if there were any, did not make it into the canon.

Paul was forced to boast about his apostleship and the hardships he had faced in carrying out his ministry....

2 Cor 11:23...
“Are they ministers of Christ? I reply like a madman, I am more outstandingly one: I have done more work, been imprisoned more often, suffered countless beatings, and experienced many near-deaths.” ( see Paul’s full defence. 2 Cor 11:23-30)

He uses a somewhat sarcastic designation to describe those arrogant men who apparently saw themselves as superior to the apostles whom Jesus himself had appointed. Paul calls them “false apostles” because they were actually ministers of Satan. (2 Cor 11:13-15) They taught their own version of the good news about Christ. (2 Cor 11:3-4) They also belittled and slandered Paul, challenging his God-given authority as an apostle.

John 21:25....
“There are also, in fact, many other things that Jesus did, which if ever they were written in full detail, I suppose the world itself could not contain the scrolls written.”
Can we imagine the size of the Bible if everything was recorded.....God chose what would be beneficial and educational.

You seem to misunderstand the word “apostle”....

 

[ScottA]

Mat 27:3
Then G5119 Judas, G2455 which G3588 had betrayed G3860 him, G846 when he saw G1492 that G3754 he was condemned, G2632 repented himself, G3338 and brought again G654 the thirty G5144 pieces of silver G694 to the chief priests G749 and G2532 elders, G4245

 

[Bob Estey]

I was struck by this verse in today's devotional reading and wondered if it included Judas?

I believe they replaced Judas.

 

[Wrangler]

Please remember that “the twelve” was the number, not the individuals.

This is wrong. ‘The twelve’ are the individuals that Jesus chose. I already provided a reference for this.

And one of the individuals Jesus chose comprising ‘the twelve’ is Judas.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is wrong. ‘The twelve’ are the individuals that Jesus chose. I already provided a reference for this.

And one of the individuals Jesus chose comprising ‘the twelve’ is Judas.

You are ignoring the scripture that says he was replaced......why?

 

[Wrangler]

You are ignoring the scripture that says he was replaced......why?

I already explained why - multiple times. I also provided links that explain further. It is a matter of definition, that excludes all but those Jesus appointed.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I already explained why - multiple times. I also provided links that explain further. It is a matter of definition, that excludes all but those Jesus appointed.

Perhaps you need to restate your evidence because I know what the scriptures say about Matthias replacing Judas.....it's what the Bible clearly says.

Acts 1:16-20...
Peter spoke to an assembly about the matter....
“Men, brothers, it was necessary for the scripture to be fulfilled that the holy spirit spoke prophetically through David about Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17 For he had been numbered among us and he obtained a share in this ministry. 18 (This very man, therefore, purchased a field with the wages for unrighteousness, and falling headfirst, his body burst open and all his insides spilled out. 19 This became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language A·kelʹda·ma, that is, “Field of Blood.”) 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘Let his dwelling become desolate, and let there be no inhabitant in it’+ and, ‘His office of oversight let someone else take.’"

Peter cites the prophesy that states that Judas' position was taken by someone else.

he continues...
"So they proposed two, Joseph called Barʹsab·bas, who was also called Justus, and Mat·thiʹas. 24 Then they prayed and said: “You, O Jehovah, who know the hearts of all, designate which one of these two men you have chosen 25 to take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas deviated to go to his own place.” 26 So they cast lots over them, and the lot fell to Mat·thiʹas, and he was counted along with the 11 apostles." (Acts 1:23-26)

C'mon Wrangler....what can possibly replace this scriptural evidence that Judas was not to remain as part of the 12?...and that his position was filled by a man chosen by God?...named Matthias...

 

[Wrangler]

Perhaps you need to restate your evidence because I know what the scriptures say about Matthias replacing Judas

No one is denying the Apostles were eventually replaced. This is 100% besides the point - by definition.

If you want to pretend replacements are the originals, knock yourself out.

 

[Aunty Jane]

No one is denying the Apostles were eventually replaced. This is 100% besides the point - by definition.

If you want to pretend replacements are the originals, knock yourself out.

You don't take correction well my friend....do you...?
This is not about the apostles being eventually replaced....what is revealed in scripture was that Judas was replaced very soon after his suicude. But hey......you are a male of the species after all......being corrected never sits well with you lot.

You should know better than to argue with someone who has already asked and answered all the important scriptural questions....that's 50 years of checking and double checking the answers to all the questions I asked....I have had the very best teachers who encouraged me do my own research....and now its something I relish...

Its why I use the Jewish Tanakh, Biblegateway and Strongs so much. All excellent sources of information and they never let me down.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

This is wrong. ‘The twelve’ are the individuals that Jesus chose. I already provided a reference for this.

And one of the individuals Jesus chose comprising ‘the twelve’ is Judas.

Scripture already answered WHY Judas was no longer "numbered." Read my post #41 where I cited it for you. Don't you believe scripture???? You can't have a name in heaven the has BEEN FORGOTTEN.

 

[Wrangler]

Scripture already answered WHY Judas was no longer "numbered." Read my post #41 where I cited it for you. Don't you believe scripture????

Of course I believe Scripture. I just don’t believe you are applying it correctly.

As I wrote in post #49, This is 100% besides the point - by definition. That subsequent, replacement Apostles are ‘numbered’ in no way means the original Apostles (including Judas) are not ‘numbered.’

If you want to pretend replacements are the originals, knock yourself out.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Of course I believe Scripture. I just don’t believe you are applying it correctly.

As I wrote in post #49, This is 100% besides the point - by definition. That subsequent, replacement Apostles are ‘numbered’ in no way means the original Apostles (including Judas) are not ‘numbered.’

If you want to pretend replacements are the originals, knock yourself out.

Good grief, man, IT WAS A PROPHECY that he would be replaced! Don't you believe in the FULFILLMENT of PROPHECY???????????????????

You can't have a name in heaven that has BEEN FORGOTTEN and wiped from our minds! Besides Judas laid no foundation in the Church

 

[Wrangler]

Good grief, man, IT WAS A PROPHECY that he would be replaced! Don't you believe in the FULFILLMENT of PROPHECY?

Ya. Just because there are other sons and daughter of god does not change the fact that Jesus was the original.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Ya. Just because there are other sons and daughter of god does not change the fact that Jesus was the original.

The original what? Apostle???????????????????????

 

[Wrangler]

Son … thought the analogy was obvious.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Son … thought the analogy was obvious.

Not at all according to the name of the OP

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Disciple means student. Judas did not pass the final examine, he failed, he betrayed Jesus, therefore he did not advance to Apostle. Satan entered Judas to do his deed, which was ordained. Someone had to betray Jesus and for "30 pieces of silver", which was prophetic - he fulfilled that. Was Judas forgiven? Doubt it, even though he felt guilty and realized he sinned against Jesus. He hung himself and his bowels were opened. He wasn't born again, didn't make it that far. People often feel guilty after they commit the crime, but it is too late. He did not believe after 3 years of being with Jesus, he failed. Why didn't he go back directly to Jesus when he was being scourged or on the cross at his feet and ask forgiveness? Maybe then Jesus would have forgiven him? And if Jesus had forgiven him, he would have felt peace within himself. He didn't receive that peace.

 

[Wrangler]

Disciple means student. Judas did not pass the final examine, he failed

You are just inventing that standard. Where is that in Scripture? Sad that so many reject facts and invent a rejection criteria that is anti-Biblical. My original wife does not change because we later got divorced.

From The Twelve Apostles* | ESV.org

The Twelve Apostles*​

Matthew 10:2–4	Mark 3:16–19	Luke 6:14–16	John (various verses)	Acts 1:13
1. Simon, who is called Peter	1. Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter)	1. Simon, whom he named Peter	Simon Peter (1:40–42)	1. Peter
2. Andrew his [Simon Peter’s] brother	4. Andrew	2. Andrew his [Simon Peter’s] brother	Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother (1:40)	4. Andrew
3. James the son of Zebedee	2. James the son of Zebedee	3. James	unnamed son of Zebedee (21:2)	3. James
4. John his [James’s] brother	3. John the brother of James	4. John	unnamed son of Zebedee (21:2)	2. John
5. Philip	5. Philip	5. Philip	Philip of Bethsaida (1:43–44)	5. Philip
6. Bartholomew	6. Bartholomew	6. Bartholomew	Nathanael of Cana (1:45–49; 21:2)**	7. Bartholomew
7. Thomas	8. Thomas	8. Thomas	Thomas called the Twin (11:16)	6. Thomas
8. Matthew the tax collector	7. Matthew (Levi, son of Alphaeus, a tax collector, 2:14)	7. Matthew (Levi, tax collector, 5:27)		8. Matthew
9. James the son of Alphaeus	9. James the son of Alphaeus	9. James the son of Alphaeus		9. James the son of Alphaeus
10. Thaddaeus	10. Thaddaeus	11. Judas the son of James	Judas (not Iscariot) (14:22)	11. Judas the son of James
11. Simon the Zealot	11. Simon the Zealot	10. Simon who was called the Zealot		10. Simon the Zealot
12. Judas Iscariot	12. Judas Iscariot	12. Judas Iscariot	Judas the son of Simon Iscariot (6:71)	12. Matthias replaces Judas [who had died] (Acts 1:26)

From Who Were the 12 Apostles? The Complete Guide - OverviewBible

The 12 apostles, also referred to as the 12 disciples or simply “the Twelve,” were Jesus Christ’s 12 closest followers. Each of them were major leaders in the movement which became Christianity and helped spread the gospel throughout the world.

The names of Jesus’ 12 main disciples are:

1. Peter
2. Andrew
3. James son of Zebedee
4. John (James’ brother)
5. Philip
6. Bartholomew
7. Thomas
8. Matthew the tax collector
9. James son of Alphaeus
10. Jude (also known as Thaddeus)
11. Simon the Zealot
12. Judas

Matthias the apostle is technically also one of the Twelve, but usually not included in lists for a couple reasons:

• He was appointed after the death of Judas Iscariot
• He wasn’t called into the group by Jesus

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Sad that so many reject facts and invent a rejection criteria that is anti-Biblical. My original wife does not change because we later got divorced.

Satan came into Judas, He betrayed Jesus, then what ... confessed to the Pharisess - as if that was a confession to Jesus? He committed suicide. Was He born again? No. Those are the Biblical facts.
The Apostles took a vote, to replace Judas and came up with Matthias (Acts 1:23) Yet at the time, there were 120 disciples who witnessed Christ and His death, resurrection and ascension.

Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),
I would say if anyone deserves recognition as an Apostle it would be Paul, who wrote 1/3 of the New Testament.