Rev 3.10 PreTrib or PostTrib

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KUWN

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Can't remember who wrote this, it is just in my notes

The text of Rev 3:10 reads: o{ti ejthvrhsa" toVn lovgon th'" uJpomonh'" mou, kajgwv se thrhvsw ejk th'" w{ra" tou' peirasmou' th'" mellouvsh" e[rcesqai ejpiV th'" oijkoumevnh" o{lh" peiravsai touV" katoikou'nta" ejpiV th'" gh'" (“Because you have kept the word of my perseverance, I also shall keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole inhabited world to test those who dwell upon the earth”). “Probably the most debated verse in the whole discussion about the time of the Church’s rapture is Revelation 3:10,” writes Robert Gundry in The Church and the Tribulation (p. 54). He, as well as many other posttribulationists, agrees that the verse is speaking about the promise of the rapture given to true believers (pp. 54-61; note also Rev 3:13 which applies this specific promise to the Philadelphian Christians to the “churches”).

The key issue in the debate between pretribulationists and posttribulationists is the temporal force of thrhvsw ek (“I will keep [you] out of”). Gundry believes that this refers to a posttribulational emergence of the saints: “As it is, ek lays all the emphasis on emergence, in this verse on the final, victorious outcome of the keeping-guarding” (ibid., p. 57). He bases his argument of a posttribulational rapture here squarely on grammar, stating, among other reasons: (1) “Essentially, ek, a preposition of motion concerning thought or physical direction, means out from within” (ibid., p. 55); and (2) “the preposition ek appears in John’s writings approximately 336 times, far more often than in the writings of any other NT author. There is not a single instance where the primary thought of emergence, or origin, cannot fit, indeed, does not best fit the thought of the context [italics mine]” (ibid., p. 57).

Such argumentation, however, though impressive at first glance, is in reality both too simplistic and a case of grammatical “tunnel vision.”

First, it is too simplistic in that Gundry argues that in John’s writings the primary thought of emergence or origin best fits every instance of ek. John Beverage, in his master’s thesis (“The Preposition ek in Johannine Literature,” Th.M. thesis, Dallas Seminary, 1953) has demonstrated that such is not the case. (Although it will certainly be granted that ejk normally has the force of origin or emergence, to suggest that this is the foremost idea in every Johannine instance is an overstatement. Note, for example, John 9:24; Rev 2:10; 3:9. Beverage breaks down the Johannine usage of ejk as follows: [1] to denote place or position, [2] to denote separation, [3] to denote origin, [4] to denote material or mass from which something is made or derived, [5] to denote cause, occasion, or instrument, [6] to denote the partitive use, and [7] to denote time.) (Note: It should be pointed out, however, that although Gundry is too simplistic in this first argument, even if he were entirely correct, the argument is quite beside the point and, in fact, irrelevant to the interpretation of Rev 3:10, as a critique of Gundry’s second argument will seek to demonstrate.)

Second, it is a case of semantic myopia in that by focusing only on the usage of ek, Gundry has overlooked the combined force of the whole construction. He claims that ek is essentially “a preposition of motion” (p. 55). Although this is generally true, if ejk is related to a noun or is governed by a non-motion verb (such as threvw), it will not necessarily imply motion. (By way of analogy, this can be seen with eij"—the directional opposite of ejk. eij" generally has the meaning of movement into from without. However, when it is used with a static verb, such as threvw, kavqhmai, eijmi, etc., the idea of motion is negated by the static nature of the verb [cf. for example, threvw eij" in Acts 25:4; kavqhmai eij" in Mark 13:3; and eijmi eij" in John 1:18].)1 The fact, then, that threvw, rather than a motion verb such as swv/zw, is used with ejk in Rev 3:10 argues against Gundry’s position on this text.2 By way of illustration, our idiom “Keep out of the reach of children” has exactly the same force to it as does the Greek threvw ek. Yet, when such instructions are printed on a bottle of medicine, a parent recognizes that he or she is not to let the medicine get into the reach of children. That is, the parent is to keep it in a position that is out of their reach. If the medicine bottle had said, “Take out of the reach of children” the implication would be entirely different (viz., it would presume that the bottle was already within the reach of children).

In summary, the posttribulational position in Rev 3:10, as articulated by Gundry, seems unlikely because (1) it assumes a simplistic (and etymological) force for the preposition ejk, and (2) it does not take into account the force of the total construction of verb + preposition. In order for John to have taught a posttribulational rapture in this verse, he would have had to change one of two elements: (1) either the verb (from a static verb to a verb of motion such swv/zw or lambavnw) or, (2) the preposition (from ek to diav [+ the genitive] or en).3

Conclusion

Does this therefore demonstrate a pretribulational rapture beyond any doubt? Of course not. For one thing, John 17:15 (the only precise grammatico-lexical parallel to Rev 3:10) needs to be wrestled with (something that has been done in the literature well enough). And the fact that there are no other exact parallels in biblical Greek makes for less than an iron-clad argument. For another, whether ‘the hour of tribulation’ refers to the actual time of the tribulation (though probable) needs to be established beyond all doubt. Further, we have not really addressed much contextually (including the parallel with ‘because you have kept the word’). Nevertheless, the basic point of this brief essay is to show that the overly facile attempt at solving this conundrum on the basis of grammar is inadequate. In the least, the grammatical argument is not on the side of posttribulationism, in spite of Gundry’s certitude.



1 Cf. also Wallace, Exegetical Syntax, “Introduction to Prepositions: Motion, State, Prepositions, and Verbs” wherein it is noted that “Stative verbs override the transitive force of prepositions. Almost always, when a stative verb is used with a transitive preposition, the preposition’s natural force is neutralized; all that remains is a stative idea.”
 
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rebuilder 454

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Maybe compare the pretrib verses against the postrib verses?
Your op is opinions.
 
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marks

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"I will keep you out of the hour of testing"

The "hour of testing" marks a particular period of time in this space/time continuum. To be kept out of that hour means being gone from this continuum. Where else would we be?

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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"I will keep you out of the hour of testing"

The "hour of testing" marks a particular period of time in this space/time continuum. To be kept out of that hour means being gone from this continuum. Where else would we be?

Much love!
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.....20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jesus did not say the above only to later contradict Himself in Revelation 3:10. Clearly, Jesus believed we can be protected from trials while still on the earth and He even prayed that we would not be taken out of the world. Revelation 3:10 has nothing to do with being taken out of the world (off of the earth).
 

Truth7t7

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"I will keep you out of the hour of testing"

The "hour of testing" marks a particular period of time in this space/time continuum. To be kept out of that hour means being gone from this continuum. Where else would we be?

Much love!
(Post Trib , At Second Coming)

The "Hour Of Temptation" is just prior to the Lord's second coming in the last day resurrection, your suggestion it's a pre-trib rapture is false

Below Isaiah mentions the coming resurrection of all the dead upon earth, (The Earth Shall Cast Out The Dead) 1 Cor 15:23-24

Isaiah then shows the Lord's instruction during the "Hour Of Temptation" coming upon the earth, enter your house shut the door and let the Lord's indignation be past, sorta like the passover in Egypt, simple and easy to understand

Isaiah 26:19-21KJV

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

(Behold I Come Quickly) Is The Second Coming In Final Rewards, Not A Pre-Trib Rapture As Falsely Claimed

Revelation 3:10KJV

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 22:12KJV
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Jesus Is The Lord
 
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marks

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John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.....20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jesus did not say the above only to later contradict Himself in Revelation 3:10. Clearly, Jesus believed we can be protected from trials while still on the earth and He even prayed that we would not be taken out of the world. Revelation 3:10 has nothing to do with being taken out of the world (off of the earth).
Here again, I'm pointing to the particular saying of this passage, and 1 particular implication to that saying. I think I take a much more literal approach to reading the Bible than do you (not meant in a negative way, lots of people read it more like you do) and that accounts for our disagreements.

There comes a time when everyone leaves this world. One day this age will end, regardless of whether we've all reached our full lifespans.

Of course we can be protected from the testing that God will put to this earth. And certainly we can be removed from it. We could be removed to Beulah Land as @Keraz thinks. Or the testings against the earth can be prevented from touching us as with the Israelites in Goshen. We can be strengthened to be immune to what comes.

The question is, which option is what the Bible tells us will be?

In the case of this prayer, here is something to notice:

This part Jesus prayed concerning His 11 remaining disciples, who would be His Apostles.

John 17:6-19 KJV
6) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7) Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8) For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10) And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11) And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13) And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14) I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16) They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18) As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19) And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

This part Jesus prayed concerning all other believers:

John 17:20-24 KJV
20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

This prayer Jesus prayed does not teach us that no believers would ever be removed from the earth prior to the time of testing of the "earth dwellers".

Much love!
 

marks

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Isaiah then shows the Lord's instruction during the "Hour Of Temptation" coming upon the earth, enter your house shut the door and let the Lord's indignation be past, sorta like the passover in Egypt, simple and easy to understand
It's not the same. You need to account for every word, Keep you out of the hour of testing. Again, I think the difference between you and I is that I hold to a more literal reading of the text. Yes, your interpretation is very easy to understand, but I don't see how it comes from what was written.

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Here again, I'm pointing to the particular saying of this passage, and 1 particular implication to that saying. I think I take a much more literal approach to reading the Bible than do you (not meant in a negative way, lots of people read it more like you do) and that accounts for our disagreements.
Nope. That does not account for our disagreements. My Amillennialist view is based on literal scriptures such as Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 24:35-39, Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 28:16-18, Luke 17:26-30, John 5:28-29/Daniel 12:2, Acts 2:29-36, Ephesians 1:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10, Revelation 1:5-6 and Revelation 19:17-18.

I take John 17:15 literally, for instance, and that's why I know that Jesus could not have been talking about anyone being taken off of the earth in Revelation 3:10. You apparently don't think John 17:15 as literally as I do.

No, our disagreements are sometimes related to which passages are literal and which are not and sometimes are related to how literally we should understand passages that we agree are meant to be taken literally.

There comes a time when everyone leaves this world. One day this age will end, regardless of whether we've all reached our full lifespans.

Of course we can be protected from the testing that God will put to this earth. And certainly we can be removed from it. We could be removed to Beulah Land as @Keraz thinks. Or the testings against the earth can be prevented from touching us as with the Israelites in Goshen. We can be strengthened to be immune to what comes.

The question is, which option is what the Bible tells us will be?
It is Jesus speaking in Revelation 3:10 and also Him speaking in John 17:15. He prayed that we would not be taken out of the world in order to avoid trials, so why would He later talk about us being taken out of the world in order to avoid trials? I don't believe He would do that.

In the case of this prayer, here is something to notice:

This part Jesus prayed concerning His 11 remaining disciples, who would be His Apostles.

John 17:6-19 KJV
6) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7) Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8) For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10) And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11) And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13) And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14) I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16) They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18) As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19) And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

This part Jesus prayed concerning all other believers:

John 17:20-24 KJV
20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

This prayer Jesus prayed does not teach us that no believers would ever be removed from the earth prior to the time of testing of the "earth dwellers".
I disagree with how you broke this down. I believe what He was saying in verse 20 is that what He had just prayed applies also to those who believe through the word of the disciples, and that includes us.
 

rebuilder 454

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(Post Trib , At Second Coming)

The "Hour Of Temptation" is just prior to the Lord's second coming in the last day resurrection, your suggestion it's a pre-trib rapture is false

Below Isaiah mentions the coming resurrection of all the dead upon earth, (The Earth Shall Cast Out The Dead) 1 Cor 15:23-24

Isaiah then shows the Lord's instruction during the "Hour Of Temptation" coming upon the earth, enter your house shut the door and let the Lord's indignation be past, sorta like the passover in Egypt, simple and easy to understand

Isaiah 26:19-21KJV

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

(Behold I Come Quickly) Is The Second Coming In Final Rewards, Not A Pre-Trib Rapture As Falsely Claimed

Revelation 3:10KJV

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 22:12KJV
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Jesus Is The Lord
Well, no that does not fit.
But it does fit the pretrib rapture perfectly.
...and don't forget the other escape verse.
The sister verse by Jesus.
" Pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the whole Earth and Stand before the son of man."
Without question ...fits pretrib rapture perfectly
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Well, no that does not fit.
But it does fit the pretrib rapture perfectly.
...and don't forget the other escape verse.
The sister verse by Jesus.
" Pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the whole Earth and Stand before the son of man."
Without question ...fits pretrib rapture perfectly
If you define "the pretrib rapture" as the rapture that will occur right before the wrath that will come down on the entire world (unbelievers only, of course) when Jesus comes, then, yes, you could call it the pretrib rapture. But, most people don't define it that way.
 
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marks

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You apparently don't think John 17:15 as literally as I do.
Actually I think I'm applying it more literally, did you read my post?

Anyway, I think at the end of the day, we, you and I, do best discussing things of which we are more on the same page.

I'll say this, though, it's been pleasant! And I truly appreciate that!

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Actually I think I'm applying it more literally, did you read my post?
Yes, I sure did. So, we even disagree about who takes it more literally. We just think very differently and that is going to lead to a lot of disagreements. So be it.

Anyway, I think at the end of the day, we, you and I, do best discussing things of which we are more on the same page.
Yes, that is clearly true.

I'll say this, though, it's been pleasant! And I truly appreciate that!
No problem! Plus, I think we've given anyone who might be following the discussion a few things to think about that they may not have considered before, so it's not all for nothing (even though it can seem that way sometimes).
 

Truth7t7

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Well, no that does not fit.
But it does fit the pretrib rapture perfectly.
...and don't forget the other escape verse.
The sister verse by Jesus.
" Pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the whole Earth and Stand before the son of man."
Without question ...fits pretrib rapture perfectly
Seems to me (Behold I Come Quickly) refers to the future second coming and final judgement/rewards time, not a pre-trib rapture as claimed

Seems to me the hour of temptation won't fall upon the righteous saved who enter their dwellings and shut their doors

(Post Trib , At Second Coming)

The "Hour Of Temptation" is just prior to the Lord's second coming in the last day resurrection, your suggestion it's a pre-trib rapture is false

Below Isaiah mentions the coming resurrection of all the dead upon earth, (The Earth Shall Cast Out The Dead) 1 Cor 15:23-24

Isaiah then shows the Lord's instruction during the "Hour Of Temptation" coming upon the earth, enter your house shut the door and let the Lord's indignation be past, sorta like the passover in Egypt, simple and easy to understand

Isaiah 26:19-21KJV

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

(Behold I Come Quickly) Is The Second Coming In Final Rewards, Not A Pre-Trib Rapture As Falsely Claimed

Revelation 3:10KJV

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 22:12KJV
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Jesus Is The Lord
 

Truth7t7

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It's not the same. You need to account for every word, Keep you out of the hour of testing. Again, I think the difference between you and I is that I hold to a more literal reading of the text. Yes, your interpretation is very easy to understand, but I don't see how it comes from what was written.

Much love!
Yes we disagree

The scripture clearly states (Behold I Come Quickly) hold fast that no man take thy crown in "Reward", then in Rev 22:12 the same phrase is used and you see the believers rewards are with the Lord, the very scripture itself denys your claim of a pre-trib rapture, it's the final judgement/rewards time

Verse 12 puts the icing on the cake in the words "Him That Overcometh", how does the believer overcome if their taken away in a pre-trib rapture, the simple basic context is a no brainer

We're not even dealing with Isaiahs very clear account on the earth's hour of temptation, and how the church is instructed to enter their dwellings

IMHO I believe many people see the very simple truth in scripture as presented, but the element of mans pride is the factor from admitting presented truth

Could you imagine how many people have written books on the subject matter, taught classes before thousands, to later be shown that they were completely wrong?

Revelation 3:10-12KJV
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh
will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
 

marks

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No problem! Plus, I think we've given anyone who might be following the discussion a few things to think about that they may not have considered before, so it's not all for nothing (even though it can seem that way sometimes).
Completely agree!

Something I've always enjoyed and profited from is to pit my views against others who disagree with me, much can be learned, if done in a positive manner.

Much love!
 

ScottA

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The text of Rev 3:10 reads: o{ti ejthvrhsa" toVn lovgon th'" uJpomonh'" mou, kajgwv se thrhvsw ejk th'" w{ra" tou' peirasmou' th'" mellouvsh" e[rcesqai ejpiV th'" oijkoumevnh" o{lh" peiravsai touV" katoikou'nta" ejpiV th'" gh'" (“Because you have kept the word of my perseverance, I also shall keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole inhabited world to test those who dwell upon the earth”). “Probably the most debated verse in the whole discussion about the time of the Church’s rapture is Revelation 3:10,” writes Robert Gundry in The Church and the Tribulation (p. 54). He, as well as many other posttribulationists, agrees that the verse is speaking about the promise of the rapture given to true believers (pp. 54-61; note also Rev 3:13 which applies this specific promise to the Philadelphian Christians to the “churches”).

The key issue in the debate between pretribulationists and posttribulationists is the temporal force of thrhvsw ek (“I will keep [you] out of”). Gundry believes that this refers to a posttribulational emergence of the saints: “As it is, ek lays all the emphasis on emergence, in this verse on the final, victorious outcome of the keeping-guarding” (ibid., p. 57). He bases his argument of a posttribulational rapture here squarely on grammar, stating, among other reasons: (1) “Essentially, ek, a preposition of motion concerning thought or physical direction, means out from within” (ibid., p. 55); and (2) “the preposition ek appears in John’s writings approximately 336 times, far more often than in the writings of any other NT author. There is not a single instance where the primary thought of emergence, or origin, cannot fit, indeed, does not best fit the thought of the context [italics mine]” (ibid., p. 57).

Such argumentation, however, though impressive at first glance, is in reality both too simplistic and a case of grammatical “tunnel vision.”

First, it is too simplistic in that Gundry argues that in John’s writings the primary thought of emergence or origin best fits every instance of ek. John Beverage, in his master’s thesis (“The Preposition ek in Johannine Literature,” Th.M. thesis, Dallas Seminary, 1953) has demonstrated that such is not the case. (Although it will certainly be granted that ejk normally has the force of origin or emergence, to suggest that this is the foremost idea in every Johannine instance is an overstatement. Note, for example, John 9:24; Rev 2:10; 3:9. Beverage breaks down the Johannine usage of ejk as follows: [1] to denote place or position, [2] to denote separation, [3] to denote origin, [4] to denote material or mass from which something is made or derived, [5] to denote cause, occasion, or instrument, [6] to denote the partitive use, and [7] to denote time.) (Note: It should be pointed out, however, that although Gundry is too simplistic in this first argument, even if he were entirely correct, the argument is quite beside the point and, in fact, irrelevant to the interpretation of Rev 3:10, as a critique of Gundry’s second argument will seek to demonstrate.)

Second, it is a case of semantic myopia in that by focusing only on the usage of ek, Gundry has overlooked the combined force of the whole construction. He claims that ek is essentially “a preposition of motion” (p. 55). Although this is generally true, if ejk is related to a noun or is governed by a non-motion verb (such as threvw), it will not necessarily imply motion. (By way of analogy, this can be seen with eij"—the directional opposite of ejk. eij" generally has the meaning of movement into from without. However, when it is used with a static verb, such as threvw, kavqhmai, eijmi, etc., the idea of motion is negated by the static nature of the verb [cf. for example, threvw eij" in Acts 25:4; kavqhmai eij" in Mark 13:3; and eijmi eij" in John 1:18].)1 The fact, then, that threvw, rather than a motion verb such as swv/zw, is used with ejk in Rev 3:10 argues against Gundry’s position on this text.2 By way of illustration, our idiom “Keep out of the reach of children” has exactly the same force to it as does the Greek threvw ek. Yet, when such instructions are printed on a bottle of medicine, a parent recognizes that he or she is not to let the medicine get into the reach of children. That is, the parent is to keep it in a position that is out of their reach. If the medicine bottle had said, “Take out of the reach of children” the implication would be entirely different (viz., it would presume that the bottle was already within the reach of children).

In summary, the posttribulational position in Rev 3:10, as articulated by Gundry, seems unlikely because (1) it assumes a simplistic (and etymological) force for the preposition ejk, and (2) it does not take into account the force of the total construction of verb + preposition. In order for John to have taught a posttribulational rapture in this verse, he would have had to change one of two elements: (1) either the verb (from a static verb to a verb of motion such swv/zw or lambavnw) or, (2) the preposition (from ek to diav [+ the genitive] or en).3

Conclusion

Does this therefore demonstrate a pretribulational rapture beyond any doubt? Of course not. For one thing, John 17:15 (the only precise grammatico-lexical parallel to Rev 3:10) needs to be wrestled with (something that has been done in the literature well enough). And the fact that there are no other exact parallels in biblical Greek makes for less than an iron-clad argument. For another, whether ‘the hour of tribulation’ refers to the actual time of the tribulation (though probable) needs to be established beyond all doubt. Further, we have not really addressed much contextually (including the parallel with ‘because you have kept the word’). Nevertheless, the basic point of this brief essay is to show that the overly facile attempt at solving this conundrum on the basis of grammar is inadequate. In the least, the grammatical argument is not on the side of posttribulationism, in spite of Gundry’s certitude.



1 Cf. also Wallace, Exegetical Syntax, “Introduction to Prepositions: Motion, State, Prepositions, and Verbs” wherein it is noted that “Stative verbs override the transitive force of prepositions. Almost always, when a stative verb is used with a transitive preposition, the preposition’s natural force is neutralized; all that remains is a stative idea.”
Most are looking at it all wrong.

Tribulation is the wrath of God. To take the position of "post" or "pre" tribulation is self-centered, rather than Christ-centered. Either position is a denial that all tribulation--all of God's wrath was placed upon Christ at the cross.

As for "tribulation" there is no greater tribulation. To claim anything else--is a lie...propagated by Satan.
 

Douggg

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pre-great tribulation.

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation statue image is placed on the temple mount on day 1185 of the 7 years, 1335 days before Jesus returns.
 

KUWN

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"I will keep you out of the hour of testing"

The "hour of testing" marks a particular period of time in this space/time continuum. To be kept out of that hour means being gone from this continuum. Where else would we be?

Much love!
I don't see "hour" as some abstract concept here.
 

marks

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I don't see "hour" as some abstract concept here.
Nor do I. I see it as the particular period of time during which the testing of the earth dwellers takes place. Is there something I'm missing in your comment?

Much love!
 

KUWN

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Nor do I. I see it as the particular period of time during which the testing of the earth dwellers takes place. Is there something I'm missing in your comment?

Much love!
No, we are in agreement here. I misread your post
 
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