Rev 3.10 PreTrib or PostTrib

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
9,041
4,479
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Can't remember who wrote this, it is just in my notes

The text of Rev 3:10 reads: o{ti ejthvrhsa" toVn lovgon th'" uJpomonh'" mou, kajgwv se thrhvsw ejk th'" w{ra" tou' peirasmou' th'" mellouvsh" e[rcesqai ejpiV th'" oijkoumevnh" o{lh" peiravsai touV" katoikou'nta" ejpiV th'" gh'" (“Because you have kept the word of my perseverance, I also shall keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole inhabited world to test those who dwell upon the earth”). “Probably the most debated verse in the whole discussion about the time of the Church’s rapture is Revelation 3:10,” writes Robert Gundry in The Church and the Tribulation (p. 54). He, as well as many other posttribulationists, agrees that the verse is speaking about the promise of the rapture given to true believers (pp. 54-61; note also Rev 3:13 which applies this specific promise to the Philadelphian Christians to the “churches”).

The key issue in the debate between pretribulationists and posttribulationists is the temporal force of thrhvsw ek (“I will keep [you] out of”). Gundry believes that this refers to a posttribulational emergence of the saints: “As it is, ek lays all the emphasis on emergence, in this verse on the final, victorious outcome of the keeping-guarding” (ibid., p. 57). He bases his argument of a posttribulational rapture here squarely on grammar, stating, among other reasons: (1) “Essentially, ek, a preposition of motion concerning thought or physical direction, means out from within” (ibid., p. 55); and (2) “the preposition ek appears in John’s writings approximately 336 times, far more often than in the writings of any other NT author. There is not a single instance where the primary thought of emergence, or origin, cannot fit, indeed, does not best fit the thought of the context [italics mine]” (ibid., p. 57).

Such argumentation, however, though impressive at first glance, is in reality both too simplistic and a case of grammatical “tunnel vision.”

First, it is too simplistic in that Gundry argues that in John’s writings the primary thought of emergence or origin best fits every instance of ek. John Beverage, in his master’s thesis (“The Preposition ek in Johannine Literature,” Th.M. thesis, Dallas Seminary, 1953) has demonstrated that such is not the case. (Although it will certainly be granted that ejk normally has the force of origin or emergence, to suggest that this is the foremost idea in every Johannine instance is an overstatement. Note, for example, John 9:24; Rev 2:10; 3:9. Beverage breaks down the Johannine usage of ejk as follows: [1] to denote place or position, [2] to denote separation, [3] to denote origin, [4] to denote material or mass from which something is made or derived, [5] to denote cause, occasion, or instrument, [6] to denote the partitive use, and [7] to denote time.) (Note: It should be pointed out, however, that although Gundry is too simplistic in this first argument, even if he were entirely correct, the argument is quite beside the point and, in fact, irrelevant to the interpretation of Rev 3:10, as a critique of Gundry’s second argument will seek to demonstrate.)

Second, it is a case of semantic myopia in that by focusing only on the usage of ek, Gundry has overlooked the combined force of the whole construction. He claims that ek is essentially “a preposition of motion” (p. 55). Although this is generally true, if ejk is related to a noun or is governed by a non-motion verb (such as threvw), it will not necessarily imply motion. (By way of analogy, this can be seen with eij"—the directional opposite of ejk. eij" generally has the meaning of movement into from without. However, when it is used with a static verb, such as threvw, kavqhmai, eijmi, etc., the idea of motion is negated by the static nature of the verb [cf. for example, threvw eij" in Acts 25:4; kavqhmai eij" in Mark 13:3; and eijmi eij" in John 1:18].)1 The fact, then, that threvw, rather than a motion verb such as swv/zw, is used with ejk in Rev 3:10 argues against Gundry’s position on this text.2 By way of illustration, our idiom “Keep out of the reach of children” has exactly the same force to it as does the Greek threvw ek. Yet, when such instructions are printed on a bottle of medicine, a parent recognizes that he or she is not to let the medicine get into the reach of children. That is, the parent is to keep it in a position that is out of their reach. If the medicine bottle had said, “Take out of the reach of children” the implication would be entirely different (viz., it would presume that the bottle was already within the reach of children).

In summary, the posttribulational position in Rev 3:10, as articulated by Gundry, seems unlikely because (1) it assumes a simplistic (and etymological) force for the preposition ejk, and (2) it does not take into account the force of the total construction of verb + preposition. In order for John to have taught a posttribulational rapture in this verse, he would have had to change one of two elements: (1) either the verb (from a static verb to a verb of motion such swv/zw or lambavnw) or, (2) the preposition (from ek to diav [+ the genitive] or en).3

Conclusion

Does this therefore demonstrate a pretribulational rapture beyond any doubt? Of course not. For one thing, John 17:15 (the only precise grammatico-lexical parallel to Rev 3:10) needs to be wrestled with (something that has been done in the literature well enough). And the fact that there are no other exact parallels in biblical Greek makes for less than an iron-clad argument. For another, whether ‘the hour of tribulation’ refers to the actual time of the tribulation (though probable) needs to be established beyond all doubt. Further, we have not really addressed much contextually (including the parallel with ‘because you have kept the word’). Nevertheless, the basic point of this brief essay is to show that the overly facile attempt at solving this conundrum on the basis of grammar is inadequate. In the least, the grammatical argument is not on the side of posttribulationism, in spite of Gundry’s certitude.



1 Cf. also Wallace, Exegetical Syntax, “Introduction to Prepositions: Motion, State, Prepositions, and Verbs” wherein it is noted that “Stative verbs override the transitive force of prepositions. Almost always, when a stative verb is used with a transitive preposition, the preposition’s natural force is neutralized; all that remains is a stative idea.”

Ask yourself some simple questions and you will see how erroneous this is.
  • Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
  • Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
  • Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
9,041
4,479
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Here again, I'm pointing to the particular saying of this passage, and 1 particular implication to that saying. I think I take a much more literal approach to reading the Bible than do you (not meant in a negative way, lots of people read it more like you do) and that accounts for our disagreements.

There comes a time when everyone leaves this world. One day this age will end, regardless of whether we've all reached our full lifespans.

Of course we can be protected from the testing that God will put to this earth. And certainly we can be removed from it. We could be removed to Beulah Land as @Keraz thinks. Or the testings against the earth can be prevented from touching us as with the Israelites in Goshen. We can be strengthened to be immune to what comes.

The question is, which option is what the Bible tells us will be?

In the case of this prayer, here is something to notice:

This part Jesus prayed concerning His 11 remaining disciples, who would be His Apostles.

John 17:6-19 KJV
6) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7) Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8) For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10) And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11) And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13) And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14) I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16) They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18) As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19) And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

This part Jesus prayed concerning all other believers:

John 17:20-24 KJV
20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

This prayer Jesus prayed does not teach us that no believers would ever be removed from the earth prior to the time of testing of the "earth dwellers".

Much love!

Revelation 3:10 reads: "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep [Gr. tēreō] thee from [Gr. ek] the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Pretribulationists miss (or ignore) the fact that the promise being given here was actually written to the Philadelphian believers in John’s day. The Philadelphians were firstly commended for their steadfast faithfulness and then secondly, as a result of that, they were promised they would be rewarded by given special protection in the hour of trial. We should not forget that the issue in view here was the brutal persecution of the Christians by the Romans in that day, specifically in Asia Minor. The early Church experienced heavy tribulation throughout the known world where the Roman Empire ruled and reigned in unchallenged power. The obedience that is being documented here (“thou hast kept the word of my patience”) was that of these early Philadelphian believers. The New Living Translation puts it “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere.”

We must establish, who is being protected and when? The Philadelphian Christians are promised protection from the said trial back in biblical times. Jesus assures them “I … will keep thee from the hour of temptation.” Why? On the expressed grounds of their ongoing obedience to God. Their faithfulness is both acknowledge and rewarded: “thou hast kept the word of my patience.” Preservation in the midst of trial was/is a common reality for faithful believers throughout all time. Whilst God’s people have experienced awful persecution through time, it has often been God’s heart in scriptural times and Church history to guard His elect in the midst of adversity rather than remove them from it. We see that throughout Scripture.

Once again: there is nothing clear (or ambiguous) here that proves a rapture of the Church, followed by any length of sustained tribulation followed by a 3rd coming, nothing. You need to be taught Pretrib and then force it into this text in order to see that. In fact, you have no proof-text anywhere in Scripture that states this.

What you miss is, the same assurance that we find in Revelation 3:10 is found in our Lord’s Prayer in John 17:15 (only it was written a few years before). The comparison cannot be lightly dismissed as both were penned by the same author in the same biblical time-period. Praying to His Father for His followers He petitioned: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep [Gr. tēreō] them from [Gr. ek] the evil.”

Christ does not ask the Father to ‘take them out’ of the world with its existing tribulation, suffering and inherent evil, as the Pretrib argues, rather the opposite, but that by the power of His Spirit, He would “keep them from” the surrounding evil. This is the same thought that Christ is presenting in Revelation 3:10. Interestingly, a careful comparison between these two passages reveals the remarkable similarity in their import and word construction.
  • keep [Gr. tēreō] them from [Gr. ek] the evil” (John 17:15)
  • keep [Gr. tēreō] thee from [Gr. ek] the hour of temptation” (Revelation 3:10)
It is God's heart to protect His children. He did it in the OT and He did it in the New Testament. He did it yesterday, He does it today, and He will do it tomorrow. He did not rapture Israel from similar plagues in Egypt. He did not remove Rahab and her family before He destroyed Jericho. No, He preserved His elect and brought them through those fierce times of wrath. He did not remove Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the fiery furnace. He did not rescue Daniel from the lion’s den. No, He preserved His elect during times of intense persecution by the enemy.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
12,204
3,859
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The day of the Lord has segments to it.

2Peter3:10-12, speaks broadly that the day of the Lord begins like a thief in the night.

The segment that deals with destruction of this current earth and its heavens is called the day of God in verse 12 (which you left out). In my post #36, I cited that the day of God when this current earth and its heavens will be destroyed will take place at the time of the great white throne judgement.

2Peter3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
View attachment 63322
Oh Sure, the day of the Lord that comes like a thief now has "Segments" in different times

Do you really believe people are buying what your trying to sell, hardly
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
12,204
3,859
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Are you saying that verse 10 is the resurrection/rapture event, but that it does not indicate a pre-70th week rapture (commonly called the pre-trib rapture) in any of those three verses ?

My rapture timing view is the Anytime Rapture View. Any time between right now and when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4.

My view is that the rapture could happen pre-70th week. Or it may not. But the rapture has to happen before the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist described in 2Thessalonians2:4.



View attachment 63317
The resurrection and (Catching Up/Rapture) takes place at the Lord's second coming on the last day

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul clearly taught that when Jesus returns the resurrection of the dead takes place, (Then Cometh The End) its that simple (The End) not a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth as many "Falsely" claim

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end
, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The scripture above is in perfect agreement with Jesus being revealed in fire and brimstone as seen below (Then Cometh The End) as all the unsaved wicked are destroyed at the Lord's return

(Destroyed Them All)


Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The resurrection of "All" is seen below and the wicked are judged to eternal damnation, this is when the "Final Judgement" takes place (The End)


John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth
; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 Jesus clearly taught that the resurrection of "All" takes place on "The Last Day" this is in perfect agreement with the scripture above


John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,634
281
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh Sure, the day of the Lord that comes like a thief now has "Segments" in different times

Do you really believe people are buying what your trying to sell, hardly
The day of the Lord is not a single day.

It has no ending to it.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
12,204
3,859
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The day of the Lord is not a single day.

It has no ending to it.
One thing is a fact, on the day of the Lord the present heavens and earth will be dissolved by the Lord's fire in final judgement (The End)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
13,587
2,826
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
....
Conclusion

Does this therefore demonstrate a pretribulational rapture beyond any doubt? Of course not. For one thing, John 17:15 (the only precise grammatico-lexical parallel to Rev 3:10) needs to be wrestled with (something that has been done in the literature well enough). And the fact that there are no other exact parallels in biblical Greek makes for less than an iron-clad argument. For another, whether ‘the hour of tribulation’ refers to the actual time of the tribulation (though probable) needs to be established beyond all doubt. Further, we have not really addressed much contextually (including the parallel with ‘because you have kept the word’). Nevertheless, the basic point of this brief essay is to show that the overly facile attempt at solving this conundrum on the basis of grammar is inadequate. In the least, the grammatical argument is not on the side of posttribulationism, in spite of Gundry’s certitude.


1 Cf. also Wallace, Exegetical Syntax, “Introduction to Prepositions: Motion, State, Prepositions, and Verbs” wherein it is noted that “Stative verbs override the transitive force of prepositions. Almost always, when a stative verb is used with a transitive preposition, the preposition’s natural force is neutralized; all that remains is a stative idea.”

The true Bible student has no need to go through all that because Lord Jesus made it much more simple than that. One only need to listen to Him and 'heed' what He has said...

Matt 24:29-31
29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

The above Matt.24:31 event is Christ's gathering of the 'asleep' saints from Heaven that Paul said He brings with Him when He descends to earth. The Mark 13:24-27 version of this is about the saints still alive being "caught up" to Him on that day.

And per 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, Apostle Paul showed the 'asleep' saints are RESURRECTED first when Jesus comes, and that set Jesus' future coming to gather His Church on the last day of this world, for that is when Jesus said He will raise up those who are His per John 6:40.

So why beat oneself up with those who use Greek contentions over that Revelation 3:10 "hour of temptation"? For it can only... mean that Christ will not allow His elect Church of Philadelphia to be deceived during the "great tribulation" which they will go through waiting on Christ's coming at the end of that trib. And Lord Jesus even said He will do that for them "Because thou has kept the word of My patience"...

Rev 3:10
10
Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
KJV


What about those who instead heed men's doctrines like the false pre-trib rapture theory, which Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 24:29-31 that just the opposite will happen? Have those pre-tribbers 'kept the Word of His patience' by heeding that false pre-trib rapture from men? No, of course not.

Thus Jesus' Message to the Church of Philadelphia was definitely involving their not being deceived by the events of the great tribulation, which is how they will be kept from that hour of temptation by the coming false-Messiah that will play Jesus Christ in Jerusalem.

What was it that was said to Horatio, in Shakespeare's Hamlet? "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Likewise, there's more Bible Scripture than just that single Revelation 3:10 verse to consider which easily answers how Lord Jesus meant it.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
12,191
4,932
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Truth7t7 said:
Hebrews 9:28KJV
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
That verse is referring to the rapture because of the phrase "unto them that look for him". We Christians are to be looking for Jesus to come for us in resurrection/rapture.

It corresponds to 1Thessalonians5:9-11. The resurrection/rapture is in verse 10.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

God's wrath will begin when the day of the Lord begins, suddenly and unexpectedly, when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation described in 2Thessalonians2:4. So the resurrection/rapture will be some time before then.
@Douggg You say Hebrews 9:28 refers to a pre-day of the Lord rapture because it occurs at a time when Christians are looking for Jesus to come for us. With that in mind, why would you not see the following passage as occurring when the rapture occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

How can "that day" when "he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" not be the same day that He appears for the second time unto them that look for Him?
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,634
281
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Paul clearly taught that when Jesus returns the resurrection of the dead takes place, (Then Cometh The End) its that simple (The End) not a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth as many "Falsely" claim
So you are amil ?

Also, you did not respond to whether 1Thessalonians5:10 is the resurrection/rapture or not.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
12,191
4,932
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The day of the Lord is not a single day.

It has no ending to it.
Is that what you see described here:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

What do you think, that the heavens and earth will just be burning forever after the day of the Lord arrives? Clearly, there IS an ending to it, so you are blatantly denying clear scripture.
 

Traveler

Active Member
Dec 20, 2023
241
156
43
66
Parksvill
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The main question here is what constitutes the great Tribulation, Where does it start? The seals are not a part of this. They have already started and the multitude in heaven is already there in the last seals. But the trumpets and the vials of wrath that follow can be looked upon as the great tribulation. The Jews have still to rebuild the third Temple so the abomination of desolation that marks the start cannot happen until then.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
12,191
4,932
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You do not even understand post-trib, so how can you try to refute something that you don't even understand? The wrath that Paul is referring to there in 1 Thess 5:9 is the wrath that comes down when Jesus comes on the day of the Lord (1 Thess 5:2-3). Post-tribs do not claim that believers have to go through that. We believe that we will be caught up to the Lord right before that and then His wrath will come down and He will destroy all of His enemies on the earth with "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape".

We see 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 as one event and Paul wrote about that event in the following passage as well...

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When else will Jesus "come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" except on the day of the rapture? Only doctrinal bias could lead someone to conclude otherwise. Paul made it clear that on that same day Jesus will take vengeance on all of His enemies. His vengeance and wrath occurs right after we are caught up to Him.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,950
5,462
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.
The early church was heavily persecuted, even to the death
Their being comforted is in them being reunited with their families and friends who had died and that their enemies God would torment, there will be justice meted out.

2 Thess 1
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
12,191
4,932
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Douggg,

Actually, there are 3 `last Days` -

1. The Day of Christ - for building, maturing and catching away of the Body. (Phil. 1: 10)

2. The Day of the Lord (God Almighty in judgment) - bringing judgment upon the rebellious. (1 Thess. 5: 2 Joel 2: 1 & 2)

3. The Day of God - All delivered up to God. Eternity. (1 Cor. 15: 28 2 Peter 3: 12)
Those are all the same. Those phrases are used interchangeably in scripture. Dispensationalism is full of complete nonsense like this and can't be taken seriously at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb and WPM

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,634
281
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The main question here is what constitutes the great Tribulation, Where does it start?
The great tribulation will be a time of trouble that everyone dwelling on the earth at the time will experience during it. Limited in length, otherwise, all life on earth will be wiped out.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The great tribulation will start in Jerusalem when the statue image of the beast-king (the Antichrist) - the abomination of desolation - is placed on the temple mount.

The Jews have still to rebuild the third Temple so the abomination of desolation that marks the start cannot happen until then.
Correct. The abomination of desolation will take place in the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 that follow the Gog/Magog event.
 
Last edited:

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
12,191
4,932
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Marilyn,

You have a good point regarding 2Peter3:12, the destruction of this present earth and its heavens, as The Day of God.

2Peter3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

To take place In Revelation 20:11-12 at the time of the great white throne judgment....

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Please get serious.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

To try to claim that verse 12 here is referring to some other event than verse 10 just because one verse says "the day of the Lord" and the other says "the day of God" is ludicrous. As if there will be two different days when the heavens, elements and earth will be burned up? Why are you so willing to twist scripture like this?
 
  • Like
Reactions: WPM

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,634
281
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The early church was heavily persecuted, even to the death
Their being comforted is in them being reunited with their families and friends who had died and that their enemies God would torment, there will be justice meted out.
The post-trib (post-70th week) resurrection/rapture did not happen then.

I am asking about how does the post-trib view hold comfort to anyone - knowing that they would have to go through the great tribulation, unmatched since the beginning of the world, nor will ever be again.
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,634
281
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

What do you think, that the heavens and earth will just be burning forever after the day of the Lord arrives? Clearly, there IS an ending to it, so you are blatantly denying clear scripture.
The day of God is when this present earth and its heavens will be destroyed. The day of God is one segment of the everlasting day of the Lord.

The new heavens and a new earth of Revelation 21 will be after the GWT judgment.

the day of the Lord.jpg
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,950
5,462
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.
The post-trib (post-70th week) resurrection/rapture did not happen then.

I am asking about how does the post-trib view hold comfort to anyone - knowing that they would have to go through the great tribulation, unmatched since the beginning of the world, nor will ever be again.
2 Thess 1 is still future so we don't know if we will live to see it.
The early church experienced intense persecutions, why would today be any different?
Or the time of the end?
It is the same for many Christians today, maybe not where you live.
I don't experience what they experienced or do experience. I don't live in Afghanistan or N Korea or Iran.