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Revealing the Wheat From the Tares

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by manichunter, Jul 1, 2008.

  1. servant_of_the_end

    servant_of_the_end New Member

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    ChristinaThe repentance of Judas was offered to the Sanhedrin as he attempted to show remorse for selling out the Lord for silver. I have yet to find anywhere a record where he repented before God in the manner of David or Peter.
     
  2. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Christina;68114)
    Lets us stay on topic here but cosider a couple facts it was Satan that entered into Judas.. should he be held completely responsable ?? When he was himself he was greatly grieved and repented himself according to scripture let us not read to much or to little into this Christ had not yet died for our sins so all Judas could do was cover his sin until Christ died for all sin. It is not our place then to pass judgement upon Judas as he has not yet been judged no man has but Satan whom entered into him has been Judged to perdition ...to be utterly destroyed
    That is absolute correct Christina. I have no right to pass judgment on Judas. And you are also right to say that no man is judged yet as Judas himself is a human being like everybody else. So yes Satan is completely responsible for this mess, as Satan is not human. [​IMG](servant_of_the_end;68113)
    ...Only two personas are called the son of perdition. Judas and the soon to be revealed Tyrant - aka man of sin.
    The is an definate article. There is only one the If there is more than one son of perdition, that creates contradiction in numerous scriptures. If there is more than one, the becomes an a which I don't see it in scriptures... for both Satan and Judas...
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (servant_of_the_end;68118)
    ChristinaThe repentance of Judas was offered to the Sanhedrin as he attempted to show remorse for selling out the Lord for silver. I have yet to find anywhere a record where he repented before God in the manner of David or Peter.
    Well I guess this could depend upon how you read it servant Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. Luk 22:4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them. Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, This verse would lead one to believe he repented AND Also returned the silver Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that]. He was aware of his sin when he entered and said these words I don't get he was as much repenting to them but aknowledging his sin to them remember these were the appointed priest and religious leaders of the Day ... If one of us went to our religious leaders and said we had sinned would that be so strange ..And as I said Christ had not died yet so going to the Priests was the accepted way of repentance in the Day ... So I'm just saying that we can not know what Gods judgement will be upon him as all this had to come about Did God use him as used Pharaoh ?? Was not Satan the one who actually betrayed Christ ???
     
  4. servant_of_the_end

    servant_of_the_end New Member

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    Now that is a stretch between the 'the' and the 'a'.Perdition and being a son of it is the defining matter in this case. Judas v. the man of sin. One of the fold, or so it seems. Apparently a sheaf but really a tare. A claimer byt yet a deceiver.The one many claim as the anti christ
     
  5. servant_of_the_end

    servant_of_the_end New Member

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    The one many claim as the anti christ will be a messiah in the eyes of all too many. He will reinterpret the scriptures of many religions and will reveal himself as the one who was looked for based on their deceitful dogma . He will be the last Judas, the spokesman of the Dragon, who will try one last time to kiss and then marry the Bride. He will fail, because the elect will not be deceived, and will bed the Whore and they will consummate their union in betrayal in the tribulation.
     
  6. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I think its perfect devine Judgement if Satan entered Judas betrayed Jesus resulting in the death of Christ Satan in turn brought about his own defeat by enginering the exact act the cruxifiction that was his downfall how perfect.
     
  7. servant_of_the_end

    servant_of_the_end New Member

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    ChristinaJudas must have been aware the man he followed claimed to have the power to absolve or remove and forgive sin. He must have heard the arguments of the priests and Yeshua's answers to them.I find it suspicious that Judas would look to the priests after knowing all these things and wanting absolution from those who offered silver for betrayal and disloyalty, rather than looking to the one he betrayed.I find this kind oif repentance rather skewed.OK, I meet with these guys who want my master killed. However, my master has the power to forgive me of this just at the right time. *is timing everything?*Ok so I go through with it and after they take my master away I realize just how big a mistake that was. Do I go to the one I betrayed to make it right? No I go to the ones I conspired with to do this dastardly deed with and want to unravel it. I show remorse and actually repent before them. Ah yes, it's like I'm all reborn again. I betrayed the Lord and am called the son of perdition, sent him to death in the real world and can wash my hands of it ala Pilate. Ah yes, the parable of the wheat and tares is for every man. However, I am still of the opinion that few men are exempt. The man of sin, Judas, and the false prophet.
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (servant_of_the_end;68124)
    ...Ah yes, the parable of the wheat and tares is for every man. However, I am still of the opinion that few men are exempt. The man of sin, Judas, and the false prophet.
    I'm not convince on that opinion... and never will.John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 4:42 - And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.I John 4:14 - And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.I Timothy 4:10 - For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Servant Yes but you are only looking at one possible way ... it says Satan entered into Judas and we do not know that a possessed individual was thinking with his own mind (we have examples that they do not Luke 4:33) ... And when in his right mind and overwhelmed with grief Jesus was not available he had been arrested .. So in his grief, he went to the priests normal for a one of Jewish decent NO repentance in Christ's name was yet was available nor fully understood He could not have completely understood repentance by grace as that was not made fully known or available to the apostles until Pentecost day ..some days after Christ had risen, there were many things Jesus said the apostles didn't fully understand until then ...And then there is the fact that there is no way Judas could have known Jesus would be put to death as Pontis could find no crime he comitted it was later the people given the choice .. chose to save the murder that the penalty of death was given Judas could never have seen this coming... I still say we can not know for sure the answers to these questions. This subject has much more to it, that is commonly over looked I dont think its as cut and dried as we have been lead to believe inour churches ...... yes you could be right.... but you could also be wrong. Regardless of which scenario is right.... I do Not think Judas was a Tare or he would never have been chosen as an apostles by Christ....
     
  10. servant_of_the_end

    servant_of_the_end New Member

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    Christina Almost all good points, with the exception of the power of Yeshua to forgive sins and Judas not knowing what was to occur. He repented, or showed remorse for his betrayal by trying to unravel his sin. Hence, he tried to return the silver in a show of repentance. Yeshua spoke plainly of his death in 3 of the 4 gospels. And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry. (Mat 17,22) But this has gone way beyond the issue of the post. That is, the tares should be allowed to grow alongside the wheat since there is no way for us as men to the read the intent of another heart. The heart after all is a deceitful thing - who can know it?
     
  11. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (servant_of_the_end;68139)
    Christina Almost all good points, with the exception of the power of Yeshua to forgive sins and Judas not knowing what was to occur. He repented, or showed remorse for his betrayal by trying to unravel his sin. Hence, he tried to return the silver in a show of repentance. Yeshua spoke plainly of his death in 3 of the 4 gospels. And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry. (Mat 17,22) But this has gone way beyond the issue of the post. That is, the tares should be allowed to grow alongside the wheat since there is no way for us as men to the read the intent of another heart. The heart after all is a deceitful thing - who can know it?
    Yet Judas was purposely killed by a tare. Yes, Judas betrayed Christ, but betrayal is not an unforgiveable sin, therefore he repented. And Judas died before Christ did, therefore it is impossible to repent in Christ's name, impossible to receive repentance by grace, therefore the only option was the priest...
     
  12. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (servant_of_the_end;68139)
    Christina Almost all good points, with the exception of the power of Yeshua to forgive sins and Judas not knowing what was to occur. He repented, or showed remorse for his betrayal by trying to unravel his sin. Hence, he tried to return the silver in a show of repentance. Yeshua spoke plainly of his death in 3 of the 4 gospels. And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry. (Mat 17,22) But this has gone way beyond the issue of the post. That is, the tares should be allowed to grow alongside the wheat since there is no way for us as men to the read the intent of another heart. The heart after all is a deceitful thing - who can know it?
    I agree they may have been told this but I am not sure any fully understood it ... The apostles didn't understand much of what they were told Jesus often chastised them for not understanding him ... As I said full knowledge didn't come till Pentecost.. However you are right we could discuss this forever and probably not have a definitive answer one way or the other ....Good conversation though might inspire some to think ..not everything is as cut and dried as we often think.... God Bless Back to our topic [​IMG]
     
  13. servant_of_the_end

    servant_of_the_end New Member

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    (Jordan;68142)
    Yet Judas was purposely killed by a tare. Yes, Judas betrayed Christ, but betrayal is not an unforgiveable sin, therefore he repented. And Judas died before Christ did, therefore it is impossible to repent in Christ's name, impossible to receive repentance by grace, therefore the only option was the priest...
    Judas was killed by a tare?There is no proof that Judas repented. Yes we have that word in a couple translations, while most translate the word you read repent as remorse. Granted, being remorseful is a big step towards repentance, but it does not finalize it.
     
  14. servant_of_the_end

    servant_of_the_end New Member

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    (Christina;68143)
    I agree they may have been told this but I am not sure any fully understood it ... The apostles didn't understand much of what they were told Jesus often chastised them for not understanding him ... As I said full knowledge didn't come till Pentecost.. However you are right we could discuss this forever and probably not have a definitive answer one way or the other ....Good conversation though might inspire some to think ..not everything is as cut and dried as we often think.... God Bless Back to our topic [​IMG]
    They were sorrowful when told about it so it lends to reason they understood. However, they may have let their collective hope that he was to become the other Messiah they were hoping for. A conqueror to strike down and remove the yoke of Rome and the ushering in of the new world to come.
     
  15. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (servant_of_the_end;68146)
    (Jordan;68142)
    Yet Judas was purposely killed by a tare. Yes, Judas betrayed Christ, but betrayal is not an unforgiveable sin, therefore he repented. And Judas died before Christ did, therefore it is impossible to repent in Christ's name, impossible to receive repentance by grace, therefore the only option was the priest...
    Judas was killed by a tare?There is no proof that Judas repented. Yes we have that word in a couple translations, while most translate the word you read repent as remorse. Granted, being remorseful is a big step towards repentance, but it does not finalize it.Matthew 27:3 - Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Matthew 27:4 - Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.Matthew 27:5 - And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself....Acts 1:16 - Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.Acts 1:17 - For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.Acts 1:18 - Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
     
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