Revelation 12 and Daniel 12

[Eric E Stahl]

Hi Eric.
But going back to look at the question they actually asked Him, we see it is related directly to the Temple:

Mark 13
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple
1And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

3And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?”

Jesus proceeds to tell them everything about to happen in that region at that time - in their lifetime.
The whole Roman Empire was already imploding to some degree (per Dan. 2) ; the rebellious Jews who had rejected Jesus did not receive His message that read here today. We read this portion as historical narrative. Jesus was speaking of Herod's Temple, not a temple future even to us.

Josephus' writings on the Roman-Jewish wars (plural) provide a lot of historical information on that issue precisely.

It appears Retrobyter reads hebrew. I think he would confirm that a very careful reading of Daniel 12 does not take us to the end of time of the whole world (i.e.: the Day of Judgment & eternity), but rather is explaining the last days of the Jewish national covenant (Mosaic); the end of the Temple era, the last days the writer of hebrews spoke of - warning Jews not to go back to the temple system, since there is no forgiveness of sins there, only in Christ).

Daniel 12 is describing the final days of Jerusalem as playing any role in God's Plan of redemption, as with the Coming of Jesus there was a literal transfer - to the Heavenly Zion. Jesus told the Samaritan woman the time was coming and was already there when people would not worship the Father in Jerusalem.
we look to a heavenly city. would you agree, Retrobyter?

the sign that those things were about to be accomplished was the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel. and we know Daniel 9 speaks of desolations - plural. there were - each conquering kingdom defiled and made desolate in some way...including Herod, btw.

King Herod is the king of Daniel 11.

Poppin,

Zephaniah said the day of the Lord will be near after Israel the nation not desired is gathered.


[SIZE=14pt]Zephaniah 1:14-2:3[/SIZE]
14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the

LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

2Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.
3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

 

[Poppin]

Poppin,

Zephaniah said the day of the Lord will be near after Israel the nation not desired is gathered.


[SIZE=14pt]Zephaniah 1:14-2:3[/SIZE]
14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the

LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

2Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.
3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

And, the remnant was gathered. They trickled back to Jerusalem from Babylon, rebuilt the temple, and Jesus appeared.
and in 70AD the fierce anger of the Lord came upon the apostates, and Jerusalem. Daniel's 70 weeks which were determined for the time of return were complete. Jesus the Savior had come; had been cut off for His people, then Titus and his people came and carried out the decree of desolation.

For they were not all Israel who are Israel. The Israel of God were and those who received Jesus, and continue to receive Him to this very day (both jew & gentile), and to the very Last Day in which He will judge the world and separate the sheep from the goats and eternity is all there is.

The Israel of God heeded this warning, and fled Jerusalem just prior to it's complete destruction.

Luke 21
The Destruction of Jerusalem
21"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;

Though THIS DAY of trouble and vengeance and wrath on THIS PEOPLE (unbelieving Israel) marked the end of the Old Covenant era and the going forth of the good News of the grace of God to all people was NOT the LAST DAY, it was A day of trouble, and the worst Israel had ever seen.

Whatever transpires in today's State of Israel has nothing to do with what is written above.
Earthly Jerusalem is no longer part of God's Plan - Heavenly Jerusalem above is.

Paul made it exceedingly clear the transfer had been made - earthy Jerusalem (unbelievers) and the entire Mosaic system was coming to an end, the Old Covenant was passing away, superceded by a Superior Covenant, in Christ's Blood. Those who refused the New Covenant and New Jerusalem, with the King seated High in the Heavens until the Judgment (when New Jerusalem and a New Heavens and New Earth will appear) perished in 70AD.

Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

Paul said the children who rejected Jesus and His New Covenant would not inherit with the children of the New Covenant.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

At the middle of the 7 year tribulation Michael and the good angels cast the devil and the bad angels to the earth. Then Michael comes down to earth and stands for Israel on earth till the end of the great tribulation.

1. There is the one 'seven' and there is the Great Tribulation: a specific and unique time in the annals of prophecy and in man's time. Not only can I ask in certainty where it is that the two are equated knowing full well they are not: I also know that the Great Tribulation only begins at the (midpoint) abomination of the one 'seven' and, as a time of great tribulation, is shortened by the sudden, and otherwise unpredictable arrival of the Day of the Lord. Ergo: we are talking about two different time periods: there is no seven year 'tribulation.'

2. What is a short time to an immortal being? In other words, when was Satan cast down? For that answer, let me refer you to Zechariah 3: when did this prophecy take place? I will put it to you as a conclusion of mine, that Zechariah 3 happened after Mary met Jesus outside the garden tomb in John's Gospel. If we allow that Zechariah 3 is the next event to happen when Jesus meets the Father in Heaven as He tells Mary, then it completes our salvation when our sin is removed with Jesus' "filthy rags," which also might explain why Jesus told Mary not to 'hold onto' Him. One, He was literally covered in spiritual filth, and two, she would be tampering with the "evidence" which shortly would be on display in trial before the Father.

Zechariah 3 then shows us three things: the final removal of our sin which Jesus bore upon the cross, the double rebuke of Satan for his false witness of Jesus before the Father, and as a sideline, the fulfillment of Psalm 68:18 and the source for the 24 Elders in the 'men wondered at' who witness Jesus' trial and exoneration before God the Father. However, in addition, I will put it to you here that the double rebuke Satan received results in the 'sergeant-at-arms' forcibly removing Satan from Heaven. I will also put it to you, that Satan has been pursuing the woman Israel for 2000 years, starting with the first Jewish revolt in A.D. 66-70, going on with the second Jewish revolt in A.D. 132-135 resulting in the diaspora, various persecutions through the centuries of the Jews designed to wipe them out and even culminating in the Holocaust which led to the re-formation of Israel! However, that did not stop Satan, and there have been numerous wars designed to drive the Jews into the sea and even now, Iran is preparing to obliterate Israel.

I put it to you that Satan has been pursuing the woman Israel for just "two days" - which is a short time for an immortal being.

3. The Great Tribulation ends with the Day of the Lord. Thus 'who is like God?' does not come immediately with the midpoint abomination until the end of the great tribulation as you put it, but He only comes after the Great Tribulation has decimated the Elect to some number as God the Father has determined (under the fifth Seal). And rather than stand for Israel, we find in OT prophecy concerning the Day of the Lord that the Lord tramps out His Wrath upon Israel for her many sins, first and foremost being the killing of the vine owner's son and her continual rejection of His Lordship since.

 

[Poppin]

Christians are not much aware of how severe the climax of the prophecies of Daniel really were.
I wasn't until settling in with Daniel and history to see what happened.


basic introduction:
http://www.josephus.org/causeofDestruct.htm#chariots

"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence"
(Josephus A.D. 75 - Jewish Historian, Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

And we have Eusebius:

"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities"
(Eusebius of Caesarea A.D. 325, Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8).

Josephus is here (gutenberg):

Title: The Wars of the Jews or History of the Destruction of Jerusalem
Author: Flavius Josephus
Translator: William Whiston
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2850/2850-h/2850-h.htm

I believe sooner or later we must consider History.
There has been a considerable effort made at blurring history, but I believe it is responsible for us to know it as best we can.
What we each do with the information is entirely up to us.
I personally believe it is good, and refreshing to find some balance with the new interpretations we have known broadly as futurism, for it seems that once we take the futurist position, virtually nothing is actually fulfilled. Once we start to deconstruct futurism as we know it now (ex; Premillennial Dispensationalism), we see that every critical event prophesied to happen specifically concerning Jesus and His works ends up "interrupted" inexplicably.

Just my 2 cents :unsure:

God Bless you all
Poppin