Revelation 17

[Heart2Soul]

Well I listened to about 40 mins of one of the vidoes about the 7 mountains of influence..
I get some bad vibes with it. His interpretation/meaning of some scripture does not sit well with me..the speaker thinks that the Gospel must be preached around the globe in order for the people to rule in the new millennium..that is completely wrong on a number of planes.. and the speaker thinks he is an apostle...I would not place much faith in his theories...I have not listened to all of it and there is much to view..

Until the next time Sis..may all be well with you and family..APAK

Thanks, brother...HiH was quick to point out the teaching of this person as a dominion believer...which I know nothing about....wait where have I heard that word....oh yeah, the Dominion Voting machine....
Anyway, I have been away from studying Revelation for awhile and now getting back in it and I need to understand Mystery Babylon alot better.....the Whore who sits in the city with 7 mountains..(most say it is Rome)....
And now to learn whether it is a religious establishment or a political or both.
And the only church that has been around since the beginning of the rise of the Roman Empire is the Roman Catholic Church...
Which brings us to 5 have fallen, 1 is, and 1 is to come.

 

[Heart2Soul]

"The woman is a one-world, idol worshiping religious system."

No. Not even close.

Agree

 

[Heart2Soul]

The Tower of Babel..

Failed once and will FAIL again
PRAISE GOD!

STAND STRONG IN THE FAITH
HUGS

You have done a little study on this already I see....lol...
Thanks for sharing it!

 

[Ziggy]

You have done a little study on this already I see....lol...
Thanks for sharing it!

Not yet..

Hugs

 

[Heart2Soul]

Not yet..

Hugs

Well thanks for contributing what you do know....let's study this further...
So Rome has to fall correct?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So I have been researching the city that sits on 7 mountains....most refer to Rome as that city.
But what I also found is an article that described horrible acts of punishment to those who were considered heretics...and this may or may not be true but it states that these methods of torture are still used today....I am kind of iffy about that....The Seven Mountains And Seven Heads | AgAir Update

But this article is very eye popping...makes you go hmmmm.and it is up to date with today's events and even includes Trump.
https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news...n/news-story/be825c6262f5e764a3c2cbd385442702

I have always believed the antichrist comes from a religious cult. How blind will the people be as it is soon coming upon us.

Well teh church may see the rise of the Antichrist, but we will not see him gain world control. We will be gone!

Dominionists are like any other heretical teaching within the greater body of Christ. It has some adherents. They are allegorists . and like all allegorists they have to reinterpret Scripture to fit their agenda! If they are saved- they will be raptured as well . But they will not see there vision come ot pass. Teh Bible teaches the opposite.

Too many believers look for a city with seven hills and forget the rest of the prophecy.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

People forget the rest of the prophesy. Mountains when used as here symbolically always refer to kings or kingdoms. I believe they are kings (rulers) for the simple fact that the beast is THE eighth and is of the seven. Also the ten horns were defined in Daniel as ten kings.

So the beast is the eleventh horn and eighth head. And He is the final culmination of the fourth beast as declared in Daniel 7. We have to put all these prophecies together to see the full picture of these beasts.

So don't look for a city- but 7 kingdoms (empires) or seven kings as the seven heads.

 

[Waiting on him]

mentations 1:1-7



The symbol begins as a city. The city is obviously Jerusalem, and it is portrayed as a widow. Then Jerusalem is depicted as a princess whose friends have deceived her. Her lovers have rejected her, and she has become a slave. However, the symbol that represents the city is still female. It has gone from widow to princess.

In verse 3, Jerusalem next morphs into Judah the nation. Judah is clearly twice referenced as "she" in the middle of the verse. Jerusalem and Judah are then referenced as "Zion," and in verses 4, 5, and 6, is again referred to as "her." In verse 6, Jerusalem becomes the daughter of Zion, whose beauty has faded and is counterpoised with male princes who are of no help to her. In verse 7, we return full circle to Jerusalem, and again it is referenced as "her" five times, and as "she" once. Clearly, a woman symbolizes a city, and the city, its nation.

Each one of these female symbols is depicting the same thing—Jerusalem and Judah—but from slightly different perspectives. But within the context, it is not depicting a church. Is there any parallel with the church here in Lamentations? Yes, but it is indirect, and at best vague and secondary. Israel is never referred to as a church in the Old Testament. Why? Because there was no church. It is not until the New Testament that the Bible suggests that a woman symbolizes a church, and that symbol is restricted to the "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16), which is important in reference to Revelation 17. Thus, when we understand Revelation 17, Babylon (the great woman, the harlot) cannot be the church under any circumstance.



John W. Ritenbaugh

 

[Waiting on him]

Revelation 11:8



That identification is pretty clear: Sodom—Egypt—Jerusalem, all in one hand, each describing the other. God is giving evidence here to solve the identity of the prostitute by comparing Israel to Sodom and Egypt. Sodom is noted in all of the history of mankind for its sexual sins, and Egypt is known to all biblical students of a harsh and exacting slavery of the Israelitish people.

These two stunning and dramatic comparisons are of Israel's immoral characteristics, so why not compare Israel to Babylon? He has already compared Israel to Sodom and Egypt. Could it get any worse? None of those is a beautiful comparison. Every one of them is putting Jerusalem and Israel on the spiritual and moral level that they deserve—to be compared to Sodom and to Egypt. God reserved His harshest judgments for those who should know better but waste their gifts in prideful self-indulgence.



John W. Ritenbaugh

 

[farouk]

mentations 1:1-7



The symbol begins as a city. The city is obviously Jerusalem, and it is portrayed as a widow. Then Jerusalem is depicted as a princess whose friends have deceived her. Her lovers have rejected her, and she has become a slave. However, the symbol that represents the city is still female. It has gone from widow to princess.

In verse 3, Jerusalem next morphs into Judah the nation. Judah is clearly twice referenced as "she" in the middle of the verse. Jerusalem and Judah are then referenced as "Zion," and in verses 4, 5, and 6, is again referred to as "her." In verse 6, Jerusalem becomes the daughter of Zion, whose beauty has faded and is counterpoised with male princes who are of no help to her. In verse 7, we return full circle to Jerusalem, and again it is referenced as "her" five times, and as "she" once. Clearly, a woman symbolizes a city, and the city, its nation.

Each one of these female symbols is depicting the same thing—Jerusalem and Judah—but from slightly different perspectives. But within the context, it is not depicting a church. Is there any parallel with the church here in Lamentations? Yes, but it is indirect, and at best vague and secondary. Israel is never referred to as a church in the Old Testament. Why? Because there was no church. It is not until the New Testament that the Bible suggests that a woman symbolizes a church, and that symbol is restricted to the "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16), which is important in reference to Revelation 17. Thus, when we understand Revelation 17, Babylon (the great woman, the harlot) cannot be the church under any circumstance.



John W. Ritenbaugh

@Waiting on him Ezekiel 16 also gives a picture of Zion unwashed, but beautifully transformed by blessings imputed by the Lord.

 

[Waiting on him]

Revelation 11:8



Babylon is called great (Revelation 14:8; 16:19) in the same way that Jerusalem, representing all of Israel, was called great (Revelation 11:8). When "great" is used in this manner in this kind of a context, it not complimentary. The word in the Greek is megas, and it literally means "big." It can mean big or great in size, magnitude, intensity, or rank, in either a good or a bad sense. It depends on the context. This is interesting, because when God symbolically dwelt in the Holy of Holies, Jerusalem was known by its citizens as the "Holy City."

Tradition tells us (especially through Josephus) that God departed His residence there shortly before AD 70. The "Holy City" title for Jerusalem does not come back into the story-flow of the book of Revelation until Revelation 21:2-3.

In Revelation 21, the title "Holy City" is once again going to be applied to Jerusalem, but until that time, when God dwells there, it is known as the "great" city. It is great just like Babylon in its anti-God, sinful influence and economic, political, and military power. But most certainly it is not great in holiness. Israel's conduct puts its place next to Sodom, Gomorrah, Egypt, and Babylon in great defiance against God, against His message and His messengers, and thus it lost its identification as "the Holy City" and became "great."



John W. Ritenbaugh

 

[Waiting on him]

@Waiting on him Ezekiel 16 also gives a picture of Zion unwashed, but beautifully transformed by blessings imputed by the Lord.

Yes spiritual Israel.

 

[Waiting on him]

Revelation 17:4



The elegant clothing, jewelry, and precious metals illustrate her wealth. It is a wealth as among nations, not merely a church. As a group, the Israelitish people, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, grew to control around 60% of the world's wealth at the height of their prosperity.

Nobody else on earth is in the position to influence, persuade, and guide as Israel is. Through the misuse of these gifts, Israel has risen to worldly greatness in terms of evil too. Despite its material greatness, it is unfortunately also spiritually great in its immorality, great in its confusion, great in its deviance from responsibility, great in its polluted influence—so great in its power only it can hold the Beast in check and make it do its bidding until God's time comes.

In recent history, Israel—represented primarily by the Joseph tribes—has brushed the world aside politically and economically. No other nation of people on earth today fits the characteristics given in Revelation 17 and 18.



John W. Ritenbaugh

 

[Waiting on him]

Revelation 17:5-7



It is interesting that God labeled this woman as a mystery. He goes on to say, through the angel, "I will show you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast." Revelation 17 and 18 contain many clues as to her identification.

Now the word mystery is Strong's #3466 in the combined Strong's Concordance and Vine's Expository Dictionary. The word is defined there as: "Mystery is that which denotes, not the mysterious (as with the English word), but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illuminated by His Spirit."

In other words, a "mystery"—in the biblical sense, in the Greek sense—is something that is unattainable by common human research but is revealed by God so that His children, His people, can understand.

This word then parallels Daniel 12:10, which says that at the end "the wise shall understand." Here we are, in the end-time, and God has revealed where Israel is. Israel is a mystery to those in the world. They do not believe, even though they are told. They do not believe that the people of Northwest Europe, the United States, Australia, South Africa, Canada, and New Zealand are the descendants of Israel. It just does not sink in. They can be presented with proof, not from the Bible, but from the world—from historical researches and such—and they still do not believe it. It is something that has to be revealed.

This revelation is not something that is just contained in words, but it is something that God gives to the heart and mind of His children so that they are desirous to believe it. And they do. It does not take a lot of brain power, but it takes instead a gift from God to believe, which His children will do.



John W. Ritenbaugh

 

[farouk]

@Waiting on him In terms of the duty of God's pilgrim, heavenly people today, the church, the priority is now to continue steadfastly in Acts 2.42 activities...

 

[Waiting on him]

Revelation 17:5



Now what about this statement that this woman is the mother of harlots? In the past we have referred to her harlot children as being the Protestant churches that revolted from the Catholic church; however, there is a weakness in this concept found in the Bible's use of the terms "daughter," "son," "harlot," and other similar terms.

God had Hosea physically act out what had happened to God in God's relationship with Israel. He says, "Plead with your mother" (Hosea 2:2). Who would be the mother of Hosea and all the people of Jerusalem? It would be Jerusalem, or in a larger context, Israel.

"Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife." This makes it clear that He is talking about all of Israel. God did not marry just Jerusalem; He married all of Israel. Does Israel only consist of men or women? No, both. We are beginning to see that the term "wife" can include both male and female people, depending on the context in which it appears. And, obviously, so does the word "children" indicate both male and female.

The word "daughter" also includes men, the word "son" also includes women, and the word "harlot" means both men and women. It does not mean just women, because Israel was made up of men and women. Children are made up of men and women. The Bible uses these terms interchangeably, and one gender almost always includes the other.

Consider Hosea 2:2-4 and Hosea 4:11-13. Were women the only ones who committed whoredom? No. The men committed whoredom too. And spouses? Was it only women who were committing whoredom? No. "Spouses" includes men and women who were sinning. Hosea 7:4 says they were all adulterers—male and female.

Daughters, in Ezekiel 16:44-48, includes everybody within the city.

Ezekiel 16:53-55 describes the Jews coming back to their former estate in Jerusalem. Was it only women who came back? Can we see the way "daughters" is used? It is being used in a collective sense.

In Lamentations 3:51, God also refers to all of Jerusalem's inhabitants, male and female, as "daughters." Why is this true? The Dictionary of Biblical Imagery, page 194, speaks about "daughters" or "daughters of":

The Hebrew idiom reflects a double metaphor common in the culture of the ancient Near East. A capitol city was personified as a woman, and the inhabitants of that city collectively as her daughter. Jerusalem remains distinct as she whose Husband is the One God, Yahweh. Thus her daughters, the collective inhabitants, depended on her for identity, but also shaped her future by their action.

Thus the terms "sons," "daughters," "children," "harlot," as well as other descriptive terms like "seed," "adulterers," and "liars" are used collectively without regard to specific gender when the sense of the term is "those showing the characteristics of." That is what a child does. A child shows the characteristics of its parents regardless if it is a male or female. And so the inhabitants of Jerusalem showed the characteristics of Jerusalem. That is why Hosea is told to write "they are all adulterers." Male and female.

Thus in Revelation 17, the city is Babylon (symbolically a woman) and is said to be the mother of harlots, which is used in the same way as "daughters"—that is, collectively, including the male gender; thus all of her offspring—male and female—are to be considered as harlots. It is not something limited to church denomination.



John W. Ritenbaugh

 

[Heart2Soul]

Revelation 17:5



Now what about this statement that this woman is the mother of harlots? In the past we have referred to her harlot children as being the Protestant churches that revolted from the Catholic church; however, there is a weakness in this concept found in the Bible's use of the terms "daughter," "son," "harlot," and other similar terms.

God had Hosea physically act out what had happened to God in God's relationship with Israel. He says, "Plead with your mother" (Hosea 2:2). Who would be the mother of Hosea and all the people of Jerusalem? It would be Jerusalem, or in a larger context, Israel.

"Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife." This makes it clear that He is talking about all of Israel. God did not marry just Jerusalem; He married all of Israel. Does Israel only consist of men or women? No, both. We are beginning to see that the term "wife" can include both male and female people, depending on the context in which it appears. And, obviously, so does the word "children" indicate both male and female.

The word "daughter" also includes men, the word "son" also includes women, and the word "harlot" means both men and women. It does not mean just women, because Israel was made up of men and women. Children are made up of men and women. The Bible uses these terms interchangeably, and one gender almost always includes the other.

Consider Hosea 2:2-4 and Hosea 4:11-13. Were women the only ones who committed whoredom? No. The men committed whoredom too. And spouses? Was it only women who were committing whoredom? No. "Spouses" includes men and women who were sinning. Hosea 7:4 says they were all adulterers—male and female.

Daughters, in Ezekiel 16:44-48, includes everybody within the city.

Ezekiel 16:53-55 describes the Jews coming back to their former estate in Jerusalem. Was it only women who came back? Can we see the way "daughters" is used? It is being used in a collective sense.

In Lamentations 3:51, God also refers to all of Jerusalem's inhabitants, male and female, as "daughters." Why is this true? The Dictionary of Biblical Imagery, page 194, speaks about "daughters" or "daughters of":

The Hebrew idiom reflects a double metaphor common in the culture of the ancient Near East. A capitol city was personified as a woman, and the inhabitants of that city collectively as her daughter. Jerusalem remains distinct as she whose Husband is the One God, Yahweh. Thus her daughters, the collective inhabitants, depended on her for identity, but also shaped her future by their action.

Thus the terms "sons," "daughters," "children," "harlot," as well as other descriptive terms like "seed," "adulterers," and "liars" are used collectively without regard to specific gender when the sense of the term is "those showing the characteristics of." That is what a child does. A child shows the characteristics of its parents regardless if it is a male or female. And so the inhabitants of Jerusalem showed the characteristics of Jerusalem. That is why Hosea is told to write "they are all adulterers." Male and female.

Thus in Revelation 17, the city is Babylon (symbolically a woman) and is said to be the mother of harlots, which is used in the same way as "daughters"—that is, collectively, including the male gender; thus all of her offspring—male and female—are to be considered as harlots. It is not something limited to church denomination.



John W. Ritenbaugh

Thank you for all this information and commentary.....so can you summarize as to what is the king/kingdoms whom 5 have fallen, 1 is, and 1 is yet to come?

 

[Ziggy]

Well thanks for contributing what you do know....let's study this further...
So Rome has to fall correct?

The world has to fall.

This is the days of Noah.
This is the days of Sodom and Gomarrah.

By water and by fire...

The world is Babylon.. to be destroyed.

It will crash and burn.. with Holy Water and Firey Judgment.
It will be cleansed and tried in the fire.
And the meek shall inherit the earth.
And God will live among us.
In Spirit and in Truth.

Have Faith.

 

[Base12]

...Egypt is known to all biblical students of a harsh and exacting slavery of the Israelitish people.

Yes. Excellent.

@Heart2Soul What does that Mountain look like @ 1:48?

Understand that, and understand what Mountains symbolize in the Bible.

She "sits" on them....

Jeremiah 3:2 (Contemporary English Version)
"Just try to find one hilltop where you haven't gone to worship other gods by having sex. You sat beside the road like a robber in ambush, except you offered yourself to every passerby. Your sins of unfaithfulness have polluted the land."

Jeremiah 3:2 (NET Bible)
"Look up at the hilltops and consider this. You have had sex with other gods on every one of them. You waited for those gods like a thief lying in wait in the desert. You defiled the land by your wicked prostitution to other gods.

Jeremiah 3:2 (New Living Translation)
“Look at the shrines on every hilltop. Is there any place you have not been defiled by your adultery with other gods? You sit like a prostitute beside the road waiting for a customer. You sit alone like a nomad in the desert. You have polluted the land with your prostitution and your wickedness.

The tip of Mount Sinai is where the 'Seed' (the Word of God) came down from...

Exodus 32:15
"And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written."

The Lawgiver is between the feet... lol.

I am not trying to be vulgar here. You want the answer and it is right there in your Bible.

The Seven Mountains are not some 'mountain range' that can be found on a map.

The Seven Mountains are *SEVEN LOVERS* that the Harlot 'sits' on in order to produce the Seven Kings.

See that? The Seven Mountains rise and fall over long periods of time. They are not in one place geographically.

The Harlot 'sits' on many 'Waters'...

Now do you folks here understand what the Waters are?

Revelation 17:15
"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

Does this next verse help?

Isaiah 23:3
"And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, is her revenue; and she is a mart of nations."

This next verse should make it plain as day...

Galatians 4:24 (New American Standard Bible)
This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

Children proceed from the top of the 'Mountain'.

Oh well. I guess Christians just aren't ready to understand the Kingdom of God Within.

 

[Waiting on him]

Revelation 17:5



In Revelation 17:5, "harlot" is to be understood as including men too, involved in what the Bible specifies as "harlotry," something that in normal circumstances would only be said of a female, but biblically includes both men and women. Therefore, "MOTHER OF HARLOTS" specifically refers to unfaithfulness within a covenant relationship with God, not a specific human sexual sin.

The Protestant churches that revolted from the Catholic Church were certainly not unfaithful to God as churches. Neither was the Catholic Church unfaithful to God as a church. Why? Because they never entered into a covenant with Him! They were never His church! But the citizens of the nations of Israel were certainly unfaithful to God within a covenant relationship.



John W. Ritenbaugh

 

[Waiting on him]

Revelation 17:5



In the past, we have been taught that this refers to the Roman Catholic Church. Yet, does this truly refer only to a church, or is it something more politically, economically, and militarily powerful and influential? Notice her identification contains the name "Mystery." (I Corinthians 2:7-9 also uses this term.)

A biblical mystery is something that God must reveal for one to understand. It is not something right on the surface that anybody looking into Revelation can stumble across and quickly understand. This Woman's identification is not something easily seen. Of "mystery," William Barclay's The Letters to the Corinthians says: "The Greek word musterion means something whose meaning is hidden from those who have not been initiated, but crystal clear to those who have" (p. 26). Thus, commentaries are of virtually no help in identifying the Woman of these chapters.

Protestant biblical commentators pay little or no attention to the end-time twelve tribes of Israel. To them, that Israel does not exist! Conversely, evangelical writers and a few mainstream groups focus exclusively on the tiny nation of Israel in the Middle East. However, the Mystery Woman of Revelation 17 and 18 is much more than what that nation displays.

Commentators wholly disregard God's promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to make Israel into a populous, powerhouse nation both physically and spiritually—promises that affect both race and grace. Ignoring the race aspect altogether, they teach that the promises of grace were fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

However, God, as a blessing to His church, revealed the knowledge of the end-time location of Israel to Herbert Armstrong through other men who were seeking to find the "lost ten tribes." God did this so the church can make better sense of what is happening regarding the fulfillment of prophecy as the return of Christ approaches. In Daniel 12:10, God promises that the wise would understand, and the wise are those who keep the ways of the Lord (Hosea 14:9).

Almost all Protestants claim, as Herbert Armstrong did, that the Woman is the Roman Catholic Church, against which they have a prejudice. But Revelation 17 and 18 are a continued revelation of the same Woman, Israel, who appears in chapter 12!



John W. Ritenbaugh