Revelation X111 by Ephraim

[Super Kal]

(Christina;60891)
Just wanted to make a quick note here for all you that have followed the reformers view of the End Times and all things being Accomplished by 70 A.D. whether you agree with my view or not isn't the question. These were very learned men that interrupted scripture to the best of their abilities but they could not interpret what God himself had Closed . Close up the Book Daniel were Gods Words. Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. These scholars for nearly 2000 years were trying to interpret a closed book, to understand future prophecy for a Land and a peoples that no longer existed at the time, There was no Land of Israel with a Jewish people living in it. Since there was no Jewish State no Land of Israel these scholars could only assume that 70 AD was the fulfillment of these things. Suddenly in 1948 this changed and we had to go back to the scripture to see where this was written. Suddenly the Book was open and new things were revealed that had been there all along they just hadnt understood them as God had not given them/us the Wisdom yet.Most of the reformers lived and died hundreds of years before 1948 very few could possibly understand the prophecy for a Land and people that did not, had not, existed as a whole for 1000's of years. So before you just buy everything they said think on these things. They did the best Gods wisdom allowed them to do, but Just as many of the scholars that lived in Old Testament times didnt fully understand the Time of Grace and the opening of that Grace to the gentile World through Jesus Christ. The reformers did not fully understand the Latter Days and the restoration of the state of Israel and the End of the Time of the gentiles.
I'm sorry, but this is where you're wrong again, christina... Reformers did not see the Preterist view of the Book of Revelation. Preterism was first created by the Jesuit Order by the Jesuit priest Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613) in his book "Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalpysi", which was published in 1614.While I agree with you that the book of Daniel had been closed up, the Protestant Reformers believed on the basis of Historicism... not Futurism or Preterism.

 

[Christina]

You maybe technically correct but that doesn't change anything which is why I said "These scholars for nearly 2000 years" There still was no Jewish State of Israel the book was stil sealedThe book of Daniel is connected by the Word to Rev. they are meant to be used to help interpret each other one is Old testament view one is new testament view but the fact its said in Rev. that the Event of the Abomination Of Desolation as spoken by Daniel and the timeline Daniel lays out connects the two books therefore one could not be understood/unlocked completely without the other.And it isnt futurism its understanding dispensations of God the fact one chooses to only understand some of them and try to make Gods Word squeeze into times that it was not meant to will leave you without answers.

 

[tim_from_pa]

I'm sorry, but this is where you're wrong again, christina... Reformers did not see the Preterist view of the Book of Revelation. Preterism was first created by the Jesuit Order by the Jesuit priest Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613) in his book "Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalpysi", which was published in 1614.
Christina with a Preterist view? Do cats fly?

Are you a Preterist? You are coming across like one from some of the statements you are making especially about Israel.
Is Jesus King? Of what nation? Who is the leader of the political state of Israel?Now that's a fine kettle of fish. Answering a question with a question.Reminds me of the joke where someone asked a Jew, "How comes Jews answer questions with a question?" To which the Jew replied, 'Why shouldn't we?"

 

[Christina]

(tim_from_pa;60907)
Christina with a Preterist view? Do cats fly?

You called that one right Timheaven forbid

 

[Super Kal]

I NEVER said Christina had a preterist view... EVER.she just didn't have her facts straight.

 

[Jordan]

(Christina;60908)
(tim_from_pa;60907)
Christina with a Preterist view? Do cats fly?

You called that one right Timheaven forbid XD! Couldn't resist. But I agree... Christina with a Preterist view?

 

[Super Kal]

(Christina;60901)
You maybe technically correct but that doesn't change anything which is why I said "These scholars for nearly 2000 years" There still was no Jewish State of Israel the book was stil sealedThe book of Daniel is connected by the Word to Rev. they are meant to be used to help interpret each other one is Old testament view one is new testament view but the fact its said in Rev. that the Event of the Abomination Of Desolation as spoken by Daniel and the timeline Daniel lays out connects the two books therefore one could not be understood/unlocked completely without the other.And it isnt futurism its understanding dispensations of God the fact one chooses to only understand some of them and try to make Gods Word squeeze into times that it was not meant to will leave you without answers.
while the Bible does speak of "dispensations of grace", it was John Nelson Darby, Edward Irving, and E.W. Bullinger were the ones that added to the word fo God by creating Ultra-Dispensationalism... these men never read Galatians 3:26-29it's modern dispensationalism that says that the churches of Revelation are supposedly talking about 7 different church agesnow the only thing I agree on is a millennial reign with Christ... there is nothing symbolic about it, nor in 70 AD, was there a "symbolic" resurrection

 

[Jordan]

(Super Kal;60916)
(Christina;60901)
You maybe technically correct but that doesn't change anything which is why I said "These scholars for nearly 2000 years" There still was no Jewish State of Israel the book was stil sealedThe book of Daniel is connected by the Word to Rev. they are meant to be used to help interpret each other one is Old testament view one is new testament view but the fact its said in Rev. that the Event of the Abomination Of Desolation as spoken by Daniel and the timeline Daniel lays out connects the two books therefore one could not be understood/unlocked completely without the other.And it isnt futurism its understanding dispensations of God the fact one chooses to only understand some of them and try to make Gods Word squeeze into times that it was not meant to will leave you without answers.
while the Bible does speak of "dispensations of grace", it was John Nelson Darby, Edward Irving, and E.W. Bullinger were the ones that added to the word fo God by creating Ultra-Dispensationalism... these men never read Galatians 3:26-29it's modern dispensationalism that says that the churches of Revelation are supposedly talking about 7 different church agesnow the only thing I agree on is a millennial reign with Christ... there is nothing symbolic about it, nor in 70 AD, was there a "symbolic" resurrection Nobody said that Revelation 2 and Revelation 3 has 7 different church ages. These are types of churches. And Galatians 3:26-29...Verse 29 said IF, as in IF you follow Christ...

 

[Christina]

(Super Kal;60912)
I NEVER said Christina had a preterist view... EVER.she just didn't have her facts straight.
I dont know how saying that scholars for 2000 years didnt see what was closed and that Israel as a nation didnt exsist for them is having the facts wrong but if you think so

And I dont see what Galations has to do with disproving any of this ???????????And yes Bulinger said this it was when knowledge was starting to increase in fact I believe you will find that knowledge increased more in 20th century then ever before in History of the World, after 2000 years, This has been my point.God was begining to open up wisdom first to the few and then to the many.Thats the way he works. If you want to stick with the ones that interpted it all when they didnt have this wisdom, from God, as knowlegde hadnt increasedand the time, had not yet come, your choice

 

[Super Kal]

and I guess that's your excuse for dispensationalism... you know, modern day Evangelicals can also play that card, too, and claim that the pre-trib rapture is a way of God beginning to open up people's minds...do some research on the teachings and doctrines that you follow, christina...dispensationalists say that God was to have a kingdom on this earth... when Christ died, He had to go to another plan...go read John 8:28-38 again, and tell me what Christ says..."Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."dispensationalism is a false doctrine... just like salvation through works is a false doctrine, just like a pre-trib rapture is a false doctrine...many lies were conceived in the creation of the Scofield Reference Bible... many thigns were added...the man wasn't even a bona fide Bible Scholar.

 

[tim_from_pa]

When one reads about dispensationalism, there seems to be as many views on that as there are opinions on a board like this.I only know that the story of the bible is like building a house. First the foundation, then the beams, outer shell and room, and finally the finishing touches. Each relate to the other and when one is past, the next has to build on it.Dispensationists seem to see the church as a parenthetical era where a vast number of Gentiles are saved and only a few Israelites while Israel is put "on hold".I do not see it that way at all. I only see the church age for the purpose it was intended, not a dealings with certain people.That is because of my British-Israel beliefs. The so-called Gentiles are actually Israelites (unbeknownst to themselves) that have been scattered and formed other nations as the Abrahamic covenant teaches and the Jews that did not accept the gospel are just "some of the branches" broken off as the apostle Paul taught in Romans 11. A careful reading of Romans 9-11 shows that Paul was speaking about more than just Jews and Gentiles. He also had the Israelites in mind as well. When Paul stated,blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.Paul was not saying that Israel would be blind until God saved the required number of Gentiles. Rather, Paul was alluding to Genesis 48:19 where Israel would be partly blind until they became a multitude of nations. Another translation is "the fullness of the nations" or "fullness of the Gentiles". This Genesis prophecy pointed to a time when Ephraim would become many Gentile nations and in turn this is how the gospel would be spread. And "in this manner all Israel would be saved". It was not of Judaism. And likewise "Not all of Israel are of Israel" In other words, there are more Israelites than the failed Jews that did not believe the gospel---- there were lost Israelite Gentiles that would be the faith (as opposed to works) branch that would be the fulfillment of the promises.So, the church age is the location and manner that God now deals with Israel.In the end, they all will be gathered to their land again and joined with the Jew for the millennial Kingdom.

 

[Christina]

(Super Kal;60927)
and I guess that's your excuse for dispensationalism... you know, modern day Evangelicals can also play that card, too, and claim that the pre-trib rapture is a way of God beginning to open up people's minds...do some research on the teachings and doctrines that you follow, christina...dispensationalists say that God was to have a kingdom on this earth... when Christ died, He had to go to another plan...go read John 8:28-38 again, and tell me what Christ says..."Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."dispensationalism is a false doctrine... just like salvation through works is a false doctrine, just like a pre-trib rapture is a false doctrine...many lies were conceived in the creation of the Scofield Reference Bible... many thigns were added...the man wasn't even a bona fide Bible Scholar.
It makes no difference what label you want to put on it God has a plan and he wrote it down for us and just like all plans there is a process it follows. for Example:God put a stupor on Jews opened salvation to the gentiles this is called the time of the gentiles, the age of grace,the church age ect. ... This time will End ? Daniels 70th week will occur we call it the 7 year tribulation period (week) and it Ends with the return of Christ this is Gods plan you can say anything you want call it whatever you like but it will come to pass. Now just because you cant see it or dont like it doesnt mean a thing you want to think God ended it all in 70 AD and just left us to entertain him for 2000 years with no plan til he gets board and decides to just End it go ahead. But God is perfect he has an exact plan and he fore told us what it was. You have not a biblical leg to stand on all you have is mens Words the Bible says different. You can hunt for the occasional scripture to support you. But if you follow what God laid out he very clearly has a plan. God is not the author of confusion he is very exact he even knows the number of hairs on your head he laid out a whole book of numbers and days and ages if you think he just stopped at 70 AD because you dont get it. You would be mistaken.

 

[Christina]

Super Kal I dont even think you get what dispensation is if you did you couldnt deny it. It is in its essence how God manages his Household (church) if you cant see that his system of mangement changed between the Old testament Law and Jesus Christ for example you are truly blinded or in denial. "Dispensational Theology can be defined very simply as a system of theology which attempts to develop the Bible's philosophy of history on the basis of the sovereign rule of God. It represents the whole of Scripture and history as being covered by several dispensations of God's rule.""A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect to his obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.The dispensations are a progressive and connected revelation of God's dealings with man, given sometimes to the whole race and at other times to a particular people, Israel. These different dispensations are not separate ways of salvation. During each of them man is reconciled to God in only one way, i.e., by God's grace through [faith in] the work of Christ that was accomplished on the cross and vindicated in His resurrection. Before the cross man was saved in prospect of Christ's atoning sacrifice, through believing the revelation thus far given him. Since the cross man has been saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ in Whom revelation and redemption are consummated.On man's part the continuing requirement is obedience to the revelation of God. This obedience is a stewardship of faith. Although the divine revelation unfolds progressively, the deposit of truth in the earlier time-periods is not discarded; rather it is cumulative. Thus conscience (moral responsibility) is an abiding truth in human life (Rom. 2:15; 9:1; 2 Cor 1:12; 4:2), although it does not continue as dispensation. Similarly, the saved of this present dispensation are 'not under law' as a specific test of obedience to divine revelation (Gal. 5:18; cp. Gal. 2:16; 3:11), yet the law remains an integral part of the Holy Scriptures which, to the redeemed, are profitable for 'training in righteousness' (2 Tim. 3:16-17; cp. Rom. 15:4).The purpose of each dispensation, then, is to place man under a specific rule of conduct, but such stewardship is not a condition of salvation. In every past dispensation unregenerate man has failed, and he has failed in this present dispensation and will in the future. But salvation has been and will continue to be available to him by God's grace through faith.

HISTORICAL EVIDENCE OF DISPENSATIONALISMThere is evidence from early church writers of dispensational thinking. Writings of Justin Martyr, (A.D. 110-165)Iranaeus (A.D. 130-200)Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 150-220)Augustine (A.D. 354-430)Pierre Poiret (1646-1719)John Edwards (1637-1716)Isaac Watts (1674-1748)John Nelson Darby (1800-1882)C.I. Scofield (1843-1921)Lewis Sperry Chafer Charles RyrieDwight PentecostJohn WalvoordC) THE MEANING OF THE WORD DISPENSATIONThe word which is translated dispensation in the New Testament is oikonomia, from which the English word economy is derived. The New Testament word is a combination of two words - oikos, which means house and nemo, which means to dispense, manage, or hold sway. 11 Thus, the word literally means house dispensing or house managing.It 'relates primarily to household administration.'12English word dispensation sometimes refers to 'the system by which things are administered' and 'the divine administration of conduct of the world.' Theologically it is 'A religious order or system, conceived as divinely instituted, or as a stage in a progressive revelation, expressly adapted to the needs of a particular nation or period of time.'Seems to me this is undeniable fact of History and scripture What you are really dening is the End times When God again changes the Way he manages his(house) church.Well thats alot of scripture to deny. You got start at Gen.. go through Rev. to deny all thats said about this.

 

[Follower]

(tim_from_pa;60932)
Dispensationists seem to see the church as a parenthetical era where a vast number of Gentiles are saved and only a few Israelites while Israel is put "on hold".
Increasingly, Dispensationists are seeing the church as a separate, parallel dispensation to a jewish dispensation. And, the Christians get to be God's stepchildren.
That is because of my British-Israel beliefs. The so-called Gentiles are actually Israelites (unbeknownst to themselves) that have been scattered and formed other nations as the Abrahamic covenant teaches and the Jews that did not accept the gospel are just "some of the branches" broken off as the apostle Paul taught in Romans 11.
I don't know where the lost tribes ended up. But, my ignorance belays one of the many absurdities of the idea of God is resorting the Israelites in modern Israel. The people of these tribes don't know who they are so that they would know to pack their bags for the move.It could well be that your British-Israel beliefs are correct as far as that goes. But, the Branches of Romans 11 are there by faith, not race.
blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.Paul was not saying that Israel would be blind until God saved the required number of Gentiles.
Of course, it doesn't mean that. I'm almost surprised that I haven't seen anyone use this verse to claim that all gentiles will be saved (I know there are people who hold this view).

 

[Jordan]

(Follower;60967)
(tim_from_pa;60932)
Dispensationists seem to see the church as a parenthetical era where a vast number of Gentiles are saved and only a few Israelites while Israel is put "on hold".
Increasingly, Dispensationists are seeing the church as a separate, parallel dispensation to a jewish dispensation. And, the Christians get to be God's stepchildren.Stepchildren? There is NO such thing as a step-child when it comes to God. It's only a human term for a human parent...

 

[tim_from_pa]

(Jordan;60969)
Stepchildren? There is NO such thing as a step-child when it comes to God. It's only a human term for a human parent...
Yeah, that knocked the socks off of me as well. Where did that idea of stepchildren come from?The bible talks about adoption because we are from Adam's race but then transferred to the race of Christ and adoption literally means "placing as a son".

 

[Jordan]

(tim_from_pa;60974)
(Jordan;60969)
Stepchildren? There is NO such thing as a step-child when it comes to God. It's only a human term for a human parent...
Yeah, that knocked the socks off of me as well. Where did that idea of stepchildren come from?The bible talks about adoption because we are from Adam's race but then transferred to the race of Christ and adoption literally means "placing as a son"."The race of Christ" is the race of Adam.

Luke 3:23 - Luke 3:38 And how do you know if we are of Adam's race?

We could be of the race of Genesis 1:26-28.

 

[tim_from_pa]

(Jordan;60982)
"The race of Christ" is the race of Adam. Luke 3:23 - Luke 3:38 And how do you know if we are of Adam's race? We could be of the race of Genesis 1:26-28.
That's true, too. I see where you are coming from. I contrasted the flesh race from the Spirit.

 

[Super Kal]

(Christina;60961)
Super Kal I dont even think you get what dispensation is if you did you couldnt deny it. It is in its essence how God manages his Household (church) if you cant see that his system of mangement changed between the Old testament Law and Jesus Christ for example you are truly blinded or in denial. "Dispensational Theology can be defined very simply as a system of theology which attempts to develop the Bible's philosophy of history on the basis of the sovereign rule of God. It represents the whole of Scripture and history as being covered by several dispensations of God's rule.""A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect to his obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.The dispensations are a progressive and connected revelation of God's dealings with man, given sometimes to the whole race and at other times to a particular people, Israel. These different dispensations are not separate ways of salvation. During each of them man is reconciled to God in only one way, i.e., by God's grace through [faith in] the work of Christ that was accomplished on the cross and vindicated in His resurrection. Before the cross man was saved in prospect of Christ's atoning sacrifice, through believing the revelation thus far given him. Since the cross man has been saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ in Whom revelation and redemption are consummated.On man's part the continuing requirement is obedience to the revelation of God. This obedience is a stewardship of faith. Although the divine revelation unfolds progressively, the deposit of truth in the earlier time-periods is not discarded; rather it is cumulative. Thus conscience (moral responsibility) is an abiding truth in human life (Rom. 2:15; 9:1; 2 Cor 1:12; 4:2), although it does not continue as dispensation. Similarly, the saved of this present dispensation are 'not under law' as a specific test of obedience to divine revelation (Gal. 5:18; cp. Gal. 2:16; 3:11), yet the law remains an integral part of the Holy Scriptures which, to the redeemed, are profitable for 'training in righteousness' (2 Tim. 3:16-17; cp. Rom. 15:4).The purpose of each dispensation, then, is to place man under a specific rule of conduct, but such stewardship is not a condition of salvation. In every past dispensation unregenerate man has failed, and he has failed in this present dispensation and will in the future. But salvation has been and will continue to be available to him by God's grace through faith.

HISTORICAL EVIDENCE OF DISPENSATIONALISMThere is evidence from early church writers of dispensational thinking. Writings of Justin Martyr, (A.D. 110-165)Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 150-220)Augustine (A.D. 354-430)Pierre Poiret (1646-1719)John Edwards (1637-1716)Isaac Watts (1674-1748)
http://home.flash.net/~thinkman/articles/dispen.htmhttp://www.geocities.com/pvrosman/Dispensa...he_Origins.htmlhttp://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/disp.htmlhttp://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/disp/disp2.html... even a Catholic can see that it's a lie...
Iranaeus (A.D. 130-200)John Nelson Darby (1800-1882)C.I. Scofield (1843-1921)Lewis Sperry Chafer Charles RyrieDwight PentecostJohn Walvoord
congratulations... you just used the major people in history who've spread a lie about a pre-trib rapture to try and prove another lie...and just to let you know, Scofield was not, I repeat, not, a Bible scholar of any kind.
C) THE MEANING OF THE WORD DISPENSATIONThe word which is translated dispensation in the New Testament is oikonomia, from which the English word economy is derived. The New Testament word is a combination of two words - oikos, which means house and nemo, which means to dispense, manage, or hold sway. 11 Thus, the word literally means house dispensing or house managing.It 'relates primarily to household administration.'12English word dispensation sometimes refers to 'the system by which things are administered' and 'the divine administration of conduct of the world.' Theologically it is 'A religious order or system, conceived as divinely instituted, or as a stage in a progressive revelation, expressly adapted to the needs of a particular nation or period of time.'Seems to me this is undeniable fact of History and scripture What you are really dening is the End times When God again changes the Way he manages his(house) church.Well thats alot of scripture to deny. You got start at Gen.. go through Rev. to deny all thats said about this.
of course it seems to you, christina... but anyone can go into the Bible with a preconceived thought and find anything they want and say that it's true because the Bible supposedly says it's true...I can deny it, christina, because it's a false doctrine... the word of God is supposed to flow harmoniously within itself, is it not?...[url="http://www.againstdispensationalism.com/95theses.shtml]http://www.againstdispensationalism.com/95theses.shtml[/url] “Those who are anti-Semitic will go to eternal damnation.” (John Hagee)sounds like a "holier than thou" attitude to me...

 

[Christina]

I just re posted the article as it was I wasn't endorsing any of these people necessarily I posted it for you not for myself, I dont need mens writings to tell me what Gods Word says. You can find articles for or against anything thats why you Must know Gods Word deeper than the milk. You also cant argue with what Words mean to suit yourself when ever you dont like their meaning.And Iranaeus (A.D. 130-200) is nothing of the kind he was never a rapture believer the rapture theroy didnt even exist. In fact he learned from Poly carp who was the Bishop of one of the two churches God was pleased with you should read more of him you would be better off ...amazing he believed in dispensations and hes about as close as you can get to talking to the Apostels themselfs pretty amazing that the students of the apostels knew this. Then its pretty much lost until the latter days draw nearer just as Daniel was told. I agree Darby was involved in the Rapture but not til later and that doesnt mean he knew nothing, he like all men, was just not always rightI also dont agree with all Scofield ...but the difference is I can read it and discern fact from fiction based on scripture you just accept what ever you read from what ever man you decide you are going to believe this week. Once you know Gods truth you can read any writing of men, apocryphal writtings or others and know where its wrong and doesn't fit Gods Word its called discernment and God tells you to have it You gain it by studying the Word of God not men Its pretty amazing to me that a few months ago you had few answers and now you think you have them all.But like I said, stay in your believe and denial you will soon see for yourself. You arent required to believe me its God you need to listen to instead of men