Revival is the Baptism By fire

[marks]

because it is talking about the fire of the Holy Spirit

Keep in mind that you are reading this in. The text doesn't say "He will baptize the saints with the Holy Spirit and the sinners with fire." This would be changing the object of the action in mid sentence, and with no qualifiers, which creates a very unnatural reading.

I know you're attempting to use the surrounding context as your proof, but the internal context of the verse itself argues strongly against it.

Matthew 3:5-12 KJV
5) Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6) And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

I'm still thinking the evidence here is with the eternal kingdom and the lake of fire.

John is addressing the Pharisees and Sadducees, who do not have the fruit of repentance. So John is not saying that Jesus will baptize them necessarily in the Holy Spirit, I think he's saying generally to the people, Jesus will do these things, baptize in the Spirit, and baptize in fire.

Are you wheat, or are you chaff? A good tree, or a bad tree? Will you be gathered, or will you be burned?

Much love!

 

[theefaith]

The Baptism by fire leads to God's love being perfected in us...(1 John 2:5)

it’s is the Christian initiation sacrament of baptism
Includes the fire

promise of God is a sacred oath
Also called a sacrament

Acts 2:38-39 “this promise”
Refers to ez 36:25-27
Baptism with new heart to receive the love of God and the spirit

 

[theefaith]

The Holy Spirit is our teacher. (John 16:13)

that applies to the apostles who are commanded by Christ to teach you “the nations” and baptize you! Matt 28:19
Can you also baptize yourself?
Lk 1:4 must be instructed by the church of the apostles acts 2:42
Acts 8 the eunuch had scripture God sent an apostle to teach him
Btw how does the eunuch know about baptism?

 

[theefaith]

1 Corinthians 2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

In the church of the apostles
Acts 2:42
Who’s doctrine?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Matthew 3:5-12 KJV
5) Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6) And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

I'm still thinking the evidence here is with the eternal kingdom and the lake of fire.

Much love!

Again Mark, internal context of verse 11 argues blatantly against this interpretation. It is abusing the Greek to change the object of a verse in mid sentence with no qualifiers present, and I'm presuming you know this. The fire of the Holy Spirit burns away spiritual impurities in the saints of God. The wicked, however, must be cast into the Lake of Fire, precisely because they will not allow Him to burn away their spiritual impurities.

But as you wish. I'm just telling you that if you stop and actually look at the verse a little more objectively, you will know that such a reading is highly unnatural, given the way NT Greek operates.

 

[theefaith]

1 Tim 3:15 the church is the pillar of truth
Christ and his church are one acts 9:4
The apostles have the same mission ministry power and authority as Christ Jn 20-21-23 as the father sent me, I send you
We must obey what crist has commanded the apostles Matt 28:29-20

 

[marks]

Again Mark, internal context of verse 11 argues blatantly against this interpretation. It is abusing the Greek to change the object of a verse in mid sentence with no qualifiers present, and I'm presuming you know this. The fire of the Holy Spirit burns away spiritual impurities in the saints of God. The wicked, however, must be cast into the Lake of Fire, precisely because they will not allow Him to burn away their spiritual impurities.

But as you wish. I'm just telling you that if you stop and actually look at the verse a little more objectively, you will know that such a reading is highly unnatural, given the way NT Greek operates.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you that there is a good case to make if you are only looking at that particular verse. If that were the entirety of John's comment I'd likely think the same way, likely citing "Kai" being explicative. However, I think there is a better case to be made when you take the surrounding context, and in particular - Who is John addressing? He addresses the group . . . plural "you" . . . which includes both those with and without the fruits of repentance.

Those without repentance aren't going to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, but they will be cast into the fire.

Do I think of this "as I wish"? Am I being not objective? Or am I just arriving at a different opinion? I just happen think it more fits the immediate context, and more fits with what else I read in the Bible.

I find baptism in the Bible as it relates to the Christian to be one baptism, that being into Christ, which is the same thing as baptized in the Holy Spirit, as, for instance, Romans 8 treats these interchangeable. I just don't see this passage as teaching a second baptism that will accomplish what the first baptism "fails" to accomplish.

Of course we are purifed, renewed, transformed. The only other place "baptism in fire" appears is the parallel passage in Luke:

Luke 3:15-17 KJV
15) And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
16) John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

This shows the exact same parallelism.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

I find baptism in the Bible as it relates to the Christian to be one baptism, that being into Christ, which is the same thing as baptized in the Holy Spirit, as, for instance, Romans 8 treats these interchangeable.

Yes, and I think this colors your interpretation of Matthew 3:11, improperly I'm afraid.

Who is John addressing? He addresses the group . . . plural "you" . . . which includes both those with and without the fruits of repentance

Bah. He's addressing the saved in this verse throughout.
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

God bless,
- H

 

[marks]

Yes, and I think this colors your interpretation of Matthew 3:11, improperly I'm afraid.

I would sooner say harmonizes. But we do like to color our language, don't we?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Bah. He's addressing the saved in this verse throughout.

Luke 3:15-17 KJV
15) And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
16) John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Matthew 3:7-12 KJV
7) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Much love!

 

[Curtis]

what is?

did Christ not found a church?

on Peter and the apostles and their successors?

Peter was never in the Roman Catholic Church, as the Bible proves.

The church was never founded on Peter and if it were, the RCC isn’t it.

All congregations that follow the Bible accurately are part of the church of Christ.

 

[theefaith]

Peter was never in the Roman Catholic Church, as the Bible proves.

The church was never founded on Peter and if it were, the RCC isn’t it.

All congregations that follow the Bible accurately are part of the church of Christ.

Please enlighten us
Scripture verses please

according to scripture there is only one church founded by Christ on Peter matt 16:18 jn 16:13

 

[marks]

Acts 1:4-8 KJV
4) And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5) For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

In this fulfillment, Jesus tells the disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but says nothing about the baptism with fire. And even though there was the appearance of tongues of fire above their heads, nothing in said of baptism in fire.

And the "fiery trial" sounds picturesque, yet it is by blood most things are purified, those that cannot be purified are broken or burnt. Being
baptized into the Spirit, we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds. This is to train us to live by faith and not by sight. Living by faith brings walking in the Spirit, walking in the Spirit brings everything else as God gives it.

And the fiery trial is there to prove the genuineness of our faith, so that we will live by that faith, rejecting that which is 'burned away'. But in fact we are already crucified to our flesh, separated in the newness of justification/new creation. We have to be trained to live that way, by coming to think that way.

Do we need a "second baptism" to "revive us to life" again? Or is the Holy Spirit continually working, ceaselessly, to transform us, we who are alive in Christ? I don't think He ever stops.

Much love!

 

[marks]

the fires you spoke of were not unquenchable fire. And there was no baptism involved.

You're right. No baptism, and not unquenchable. These are good details to notice and pay attention to.

This wording appears in 4 places only in the New Testament,

Mark 9:43 KJV
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:45 KJV
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Matthew 3:12 KJV
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Luke 3:17 KJV
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Much love!

 

[GTW27]

Yes, and I think this colors your interpretation of Matthew 3:11, improperly I'm afraid.


Bah. He's addressing the saved in this verse throughout.
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

God bless,
- H

Blessings in Christ Jesus. You are correct on your interpretation. I say this not because of languages studied(for I have not studied) but because experience trumps personal interpretation. He indeed baptizes with The Holy Spirit and Fire. And He was eager to do this. Even in the old, the prophets burned with this fire until they spoke.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Luke 3:15-17 KJV
15) And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
16) John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Matthew 3:7-12 KJV
7) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Much love!

I said the verse, Mark, not the passage, LoL. We disagree. Let it go.

Blessings in Christ Jesus. You are correct on your interpretation. I say this not because of languages studied(for I have not studied) but because experience trumps personal interpretation. He indeed baptizes with The Holy Spirit and Fire. And He was eager to do this. Even in the old, the prophets burned with this fire until they spoke.

Yes, I think the differences in opinion here boil down to personal experience. I have read some commentators (there are probably several) that interpret it properly who are not even charismatic, but I think that's where the rub is in this particular conversation. Charismatics know the power of God and thus easily relate to the full expression of v.11. And it's actually not an unimportant matter to understand accurately. How can one know not to extinguish the fires of the Holy Spirit if they don't even recognize when it's being mentioned in scripture?

I don't suppose that line of questioning will get a positive reaction, and at this point I sometimes get remarks about how "arrogant" or "prideful" I am to say such a thing (not that it's the end of the world. I've gotten used to it). But I'm simply following the conversation out. The fire of God needs to be welcomed and sought after by the church through prayer and fasting, not explained away through interpretations that obscure its importance.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[David H.]

In the church of the apostles
Acts 2:42
Who’s doctrine?

Your Catholic apologetics is so predictable.

 

[David H.]

The fire of God needs to be welcomed and sought after by the church through prayer and fasting, not explained away through interpretations that obscure its importance.

Well said.

 

[theefaith]

Acts 1:4-8 KJV
4) And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5) For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

In this fulfillment, Jesus tells the disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but says nothing about the baptism with fire. And even though there was the appearance of tongues of fire above their heads, nothing in said of baptism in fire.

And the "fiery trial" sounds picturesque, yet it is by blood most things are purified, those that cannot be purified are broken or burnt. Being
baptized into the Spirit, we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds. This is to train us to live by faith and not by sight. Living by faith brings walking in the Spirit, walking in the Spirit brings everything else as God gives it.

And the fiery trial is there to prove the genuineness of our faith, so that we will live by that faith, rejecting that which is 'burned away'. But in fact we are already crucified to our flesh, separated in the newness of justification/new creation. We have to be trained to live that way, by coming to think that way.

Do we need a "second baptism" to "revive us to life" again? Or is the Holy Spirit continually working, ceaselessly, to transform us, we who are alive in Christ? I don't think He ever stops.

Much love!

we only need Christian sacrament of baptism in the name of the father and of the son and the HS (usually as infants) and then the sacrament of confirmation

 

[GTW27]

What is holding everything back. I believe, and so I have. So it is with a little child. Many claim to have, but have not. These I see, because He promised to give us eyes to see. And then there are those that have, the early church had, because they believed, as do my brothers and sisters. It is my Fathers desire that we believe. Believe The Words that He has spoken. It is also His desire that His Children receive all that He has promised them. And what has He promised. An example: It has been said, that he who believes shall speak in new tongues. I believed it was His will for me to have this gift(The Gift is Him) so I went and asked for it. Then, I thanked Him for it(faith or I believed His Words). In less than a minute, He made it come to pass. "I came to cast fire upon the earth: and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!" It is His Fire, and when we believe(have faith) He ignites it as He sees fit. The enemy has sown a seed of doubt which has taken hold of many, it is time to believe and let The Lord do the rest. Like a child, one day I asked The Lord, so how did You walk on water? And there was a pause, and He said," My son, I believed, and so I walked."