Right Doctrines-Beliefs of the true NATURE of God and his Son is a BIG DEAL!

[APAK]

@APAK Methinks mostly the real question of your OP has been missed by more than one in favor of another Trinity or not debate.

It has to start somewhere. Either I came out very timid and mild, and unclear of my view, and it would have ended up the same way, or pushed too hard that I would seem like a dictator and still it would end up the same way later on.......Maybe some crumps of common truth can escape onto the public table of review....

 

[Wrangler]

Are there not at least two divine persons revealed in the Bible? Absolutely. John 1:1 and Hebrews 1:8,9 make this perfectly clear.

No. The Bible says over 5,000 times that God is the Father alone. There is a total of ONE divine person in Scripture.

It is not surprising that in the face of 1,000’s of times Scripture is explicit about God being one alone that trinitarians rely on the more vague and figurative verses, imposing their doctrine onto unitarian text.


Joel 2:27
The Voice

27 Return to Me and you will know that I live among My people Israel
and that I, the Eternal One, am your God and there is no other.

 

[amadeus]

It has to start somewhere. Either I came out very timid and mild, and unclear of my view, and it would have ended up the same way, or pushed too hard that I would seem like a dictator and still it would end up the same way later on.......Maybe some crumps of common truth can escape onto the public table of review....

Yes... I understand!

I would like to hear more from people on the OP in particular. Many of them are either not reading it, or not understanding it, or simply wanting to do their own thing... Maybe it will still happen?

 

[Wrangler]

@APAK Methinks mostly the real question of your OP has been missed by more than one in favor of another Trinity or not debate.

The irony is that I don’t think ones belief in God’s nature has any bearing on salvation. I find no Scripture requiring such a doctrinal purity test.

Trinitarians are the ones who confuse the importance of recognizing Jesus is Gods Anointed with Gods nature. These are very different points and it is sad they aim to confound these radically different points.

For instance, I’ve asked pastors about Gods nature and got no response, starting with what was missing from God’s existence that was made whole by his act of Creation?

 

[amadeus]

The irony is that I don’t think ones belief in God’s nature has any bearing on salvation. I find no Scripture requiring such a doctrinal purity test.

I certainly agree with this and I know a some Trinitarians who do as well... but as you already know, many do not.

Theology is important, but God is, I believe, more interested in what we do with what we do have... than in how accurate our beliefs/doctrines are.

Trinitarians are the ones who confuse the importance of recognizing Jesus is Gods Anointed with Gods nature. These are very different points and it is sad they aim to confound these radically different points.

We can and often do have different beliefs on these things, but they are beliefs.

People too often insist they are facts to be known and anyone who does not know them the right way [their way?] is damned eternally. There are to be sure several shades of such beliefs but the extremes can at times be quite harsh. Charity is often unknown!

For instance, I’ve asked pastors about Gods nature and got no response, starting with what was missing from God’s existence that was made whole by his act of Creation?

Where I attended church services for many years, open public discussion of Oneness versus Twoness versus Threeness was allowed, but they had some other problems which were worse.

After having to leave that place in 2018 while searching and visiting other places I actually found a pastor of a Trinitarian church who would discuss the subject with me a little... Before it proceeded further along came the lockdowns in 2020 and I have visited no more assemblies at all.

At age 78 with a severely immune-compromised wife I am believing that for the moment it must be God's will for me to not attend anywhere. So offline discussions for me are unlikely. Some Trinitarians on this forum will say I have no hope unless I change. I see at the moment no hope of me changing in their direction.

 

[APAK]

I certainly agree with this and I know a some Trinitarians who do as well... but as you already know, many do not.

Theology is important, but God is, I believe, more interested in what we do with what we do have... than in how accurate our beliefs/doctrines are.

We can and often do have different beliefs on these things, but they are beliefs.

People too often insist they are facts to be known and anyone who does not know them the right way [their way?] is damned eternally. There are to be sure several shades of such beliefs but the extremes can at times be quite harsh. Charity is often unknown!

Where I attended church services for many years, open public discussion of Oneness versus Twoness versus Threeness was allowed, but they had some other problems which were worse.

After having to leave that place in 2018 while searching and visiting other places I actually found a pastor of a Trinitarian church who would discuss the subject with me a little... Before it proceeded further along came the lockdowns in 2020 and I have visited no more assemblies at all.

At age 78 with a severely immune-compromised wife I am believing that for the moment it must be God's will for me to not attend anywhere. So offline discussions for me are unlikely. Some Trinitarians on this forum will say I have no hope unless I change. I see at the moment no hope of me changing in their direction.

You show hope, faith and charity in your words amadeus, and that's not to just butter you up...the direction I see you are on is on track having salvation in your clenched your hands.

 

[amadeus]

You show hope, faith and charity in your words amadeus, and that's not to just butter you up...the direction I see you are on is on track having salvation in your clenched your hands.

I am not without hope and faith in God my friend. I was only expressing here what a few others on this forum seem to believe about me simply because I have never yielded on a few doctrines which according to them I must change in order to be saved at all.

Fortunately, while the moderators may be Trinitarian, they do have a more open view point.

For me, for many years now, God has been my number one priority above everything else in my life. I took early retirement from my secular job more than 20 years ago because of God. I have stumbled since then, but I have always gotten back up moved forward toward the Light once more.

A bigger danger that I see than Trinity versus the Oneness of God view is OSAS. Too many get so entrenched in it that they then get complacent in their walk with God to the point where they are really in delusion without real hope at all. That God has let me see a few exceptions to that means there is still hope for more... to become like me? No, to become like Him.

 

[APAK]

I am not without hope and faith in God my friend. I was only expressing here what a few others on this forum seem to believe about me simply because I have never yielded on a few doctrines which according to them I must change in order to be saved at all.

Fortunately, while the moderators may be Trinitarian, they do have a more open view point.

For me, for many years now, God has been my number one priority above everything else in my life. I took early retirement from my secular job more than 20 years ago because of God. I have stumbled since then, but I have always gotten back up moved forward toward the Light once more.

A bigger danger that I see than Trinity versus the Oneness of God view is OSAS. Too many get so entrenched in it that they then get complacent in their walk with God to the point where they are really in delusion without real hope at all. That God has let me see a few exceptions to that means there is still hope for more... to become like me? No, to become like Him.

The last doctrine(s) you mentioned of OSAS or OSNAS is an area fraught with hidden dangers. It can delude one into believing they are saved and they are really not. The real presence and being in the state of salvation is based on the condition of the heart that the Spirit only knows, and that person possessing it. Even if one attempts to judge another's salvation status based just on the volume and the array of fruits of the Spirit someone displays, this still is not a dependable litmus test for someone being saved or not. Paul speaks of examining oneself, independently, from time to time, to see if we are in Christ..in the Spirit. ..it is a personal issue.

Then directly associated and influencing this doctrine is another, the doctrines of 'free' will, constrained 'free' will or no 'free' will. This (free) will doctrine is the key to unlocking the doctrine of OSAS/OSNAS. And what does scripture say about our will? Based on our conclusions for our 'will, do we then interpret scripture of salvation based on it, as being permanent, semi-permanent or never really assured? Can we truly be unsaved if we were once truly saved?!

I'm actually working on this subject as one of my many topical studies in a book I am writing....500 pages thus far.

 

[quietthinker]

1. Your preferences are based on your personal interpretations of Scripture.
Peter warned against this (2Pet 1:20). And the splintering of Protestantism into tens of thousands of groups all claiming their contradictory "truths" shows the wisdom of Peter's warning.

2. Trinitarianism is Biblical.

3. Catholics do not worship idols or Mary.

whatever gets your attention and maintains it becomes your object of worship.

 

[amadeus]

The last doctrine(s) you mentioned of OSAS or OSNAS is an area fraught with hidden dangers. It can delude one into believing they are saved and they are really not. The real presence and being in the state of salvation is based on the condition of the heart that the Spirit only knows, and that person possessing it. Even if one attempts to judge another's salvation status based just on the volume and the array of fruits of the Spirit someone displays, this still is not a dependable litmus test for someone being saved or not. Paul speaks of examining oneself, independently, from time to time, to see if we are in Christ..in the Spirit. ..it is a personal issue.

Then directly associated and influencing this doctrine is another, the doctrines of 'free' will, constrained 'free' will or no 'free' will. This (free) will doctrine is the key to unlocking the doctrine of OSAS/OSNAS. And what does scripture say about our will? Base on our conclusions for our 'will, do we then interpret scripture of salvation based on it, as being permanent, semi-permanent or never really assured? Can we truly be unsaved if we we once truly saved?!

I'm actually working on this subject as one of my many topical studies in a book I am writing....500 pages thus far.

I understand and pretty much agree with what you have written. The problem as always is in communication. Too many people do not read the Bible at all. Too many who do read the Bible unable or unwilling to move outside what they already believe, be it right or wrong.

However, if a person really believes and trusts God first, will God not keep him? Believing that He will, I try not to pressure people. God knows where they are. Who else needs to know?

We can and should help other people, but if they refuse our help, we cannot force them to receive what we are offering.

 

[Enoch111]

Trinitarians are the ones who confuse the importance of recognizing Jesus is Gods Anointed with Gods nature.

Why did you stop short right there? GOD'S NATURE = BEING FULLY GOD

Now if Jesus (the Word) is God (which He is) then that is already two divine persons in the Godhead. So why should there be an issue with three divine persons in the Godhead?

So what it all boils down to is this: (1) Satan blinding the minds of many to the truth and/or (2) willful resistance to the truth.

What Anti-Trinitarians fail to grasp is that unless Christ was and is God, He could not have paid for the sins of the whole world. Which means that you could not be saved.

 

[Taken]

Whatever your biased perceptions, Catholics do not worship Mary - unless of course you have invented your own personal definition of worship; just as you have invented your own pick and mix theology.

Then you should not have started bashing the Catholic Church.

You Choosing the words...
”biased perceptions”...
“Invented theology”...
“Personal definition of worship”...
“Bashing the Catholic Church”...

Does not change the Facts.
Scripture is Full of...DO THIS...DO NOT DO THAT.
DO NOT....MAKE IDOLS
DO NOT....BOW DOWN TO (Worship) IDOLS
DO NOT....MAKE the created equal to the Creator.

Yes a Catholic DOES SAY, they DO NOT “REGARD” Mary (the Created), EQUAL to the Lord Jesus (the Creator)...
* BUT THEN the Catholic Church DOES...teach, preach, encourage:
CatholicS TO Exalt Mary (the created) IN THE SAME MANNER they EXALT ‘and’ HONOR the Lord (Creator).

* IDOLS of Jesus....
....Idols of Mary.
* BOW DOWN (worship) Jesus’ IDOL...
...Bow down (worship) Mary’s idol.
* PRAY TO Jesus...
...Pray to Mary...
* Jesus IS the Refuge, Advocate, Intercessor...
...Mary is the refuge, advocate, intercessor.
* Jesus always WAS and IS without Sin.
...Mary always was and is Without sin.
* Songs of Praise unto Jesus.
...Song of praise unto Mary.
(ETC.)

THOSE ARE Catholic FACTS ^^^^.

IN WHAT “REGARD”, “MANNER” “ACTS” “IS” Christ the Lord Jesus (the Creator and Maker) “HELD UP HIGHER” (by Catholics) than MARY (the Created and Made) ?

What you call bashing IS precisely Disagreement and Criticism of what Scripture says PRECISELY TO NOT DO, and your Catholic Church says PRECISELY TO DO.

I gave a brief list of “SAME” ACTS, Catholics DO to EXALT Jesus “AND” Mary.

Please DO TELL...”the DIFFERENCES” of a Catholics “ACTS” to EXALT Jesus, that “DIFFER” From the “ACTS” of a Catholic to EXALT MARY.

 

[Davy]

There are many various doctrines and beliefs that incorporate what we call Christianity today. There were already many different beliefs being formed after Pentecost concerning the 'way' and the word of God. Nothing changes. Nothing is new today. The real difference is that today, these doctrines and beliefs have just been refined and formally categorized and recognized over time and called denominations, groups and sects. The roots of them ALL go back to the 1st -4th centuries AD.

The ones I chose to believe in and have been driven into over the course of my lifetime, I believe by the Spirit of truth, are those that are the same or very similar to the teachings laid out by Christ and his apostles and disciples - concerning the nature of God and his Son!

All other religious subjects are subordinate to it IMO.

If we could just agree on this one area it would greatly harmonize the Body of Christ.
Unfortunately this will not happen...for another subject.

Before listing the pros and cons on my very short cherry-picked list from other denominations, sects and groups of Churches, I would say I firmly believe there are born-again, converted folks in all of them. Some more that others however.

There are the Jehovah Witnesses that I love for their stance on being non-Trinitarian. They are also great as Bible Study and interpretation of the Bible.

I still have not reconciled their Michael though as being a reborn Christ from scripture. And then their novel translation of John 1:1 to make it fit as a god. The word being divine (of of divinity) would be more accurate, without the def. article in front of 'theos.'

There is the LDS group that are marked by their adherence to the Saturday Sabbath worship Day, and their strong anti-RCC stance. I like them not for these so much, only for some of them being 'still' non-Trinitarian, as its founder once was I believe.

Then there is the RCC - I dislike most of what they stand for as they invented Trinitarianism, and the worship of idols and Mary, and more. I was raised in their presence and this 'made' me turn to Christ later, in a personal way.

Then there are the various denominations of Protestantism. They still follow the RCC view of the nature of God and his Son, that I consider a critical err.

The closest I gravitate to are the true NT monotheists, the Christadelphians and the BIBLICAL Unitarians. They hold the close true doctrines and beliefs of God the Father and his Son. They are the 'best' at Bible Study. I do disagree with some of their lesser doctrines however. I disagree with their Eschatology as being Futurists and Pre-millennialists, like many Christians. I was draw 40 years ago to this Futurist mode and found it was very difficult to reconcile it with scripture. I also disagree with these two groups' and their emphasis of actual immersion and submersion in water as an essential ingredient for spiritual baptism for salvation. And yet before I found these two groups, I was already 'immersed' in a Baptist church as the outward sign of my faith and belief in Christ as I died to sin and death and rose with him to new life.

Well then, how important is the nature of God and his Son to you, even for your salvation?!

The thread is meant to discuss the NATURE of God and his Son. Deviations are permitted of course, that help facilitate and infuse and edify each believer as necessary.

The floor is open to your thoughts and comments.

Thank you,

Blessing to all

APAK

Really the matter is NOT open for discussion, because God's Word declares three Persons in The Godhead. So either one believes God's written Word, or they don't. And why would any true Christian want to hang out with a deceiver that doesn't keep God's Word as written.

 

[Mungo]

whatever gets your attention and maintains it becomes your object of worship.

Making up your own definition of worship.
You can claim anything doing that.

 

[APAK]

I understand and pretty much agree with what you have written. The problem as always is in communication. Too many people do not read the Bible at all. Too many who do read the Bible unable or unwilling to move outside what they already believe, be it right or wrong.

However, if a person really believes and trusts God first, will God not keep him? Believing that He will, I try not to pressure people. God knows where they are. Who else needs to know?

We can and should help other people, but if they refuse our help, we cannot force them to receive what we are offering.

And the thing is, some folks need more disciple in their walk...imo..and that includes really getting into scripture from different and FRESH angles to make a meal of it. To just even accomplish one new experience and where a light bulb suddenly comes on. To get out of our comfort zone, spiritually thinking. The Spirit is talking and we must listen for the voice when it happens. It is the transmission from God to our hearts into our minds. Yes, God always knows our current status and we should believe that he does. And then wait on him to provide his will, however small the tug on our heart is from him. We must make it a habit...to know when he is calling us...disciple and training is essential else folks will just stay with what they currently know of the NATURE of the Father and his Son, by/from their same teachers, and will not progress further, to the 'meat' of the word of truth.

 

[APAK]

Really the matter is NOT open for discussion, because God's Word declares three Persons in The Godhead. So either one believes God's written Word, or they don't. And why would any true Christian want to hang out with a deceiver that doesn't keep God's Word as written.

I guess you have gained this knowledge truly from the Spirit of truth inside of you Davy?

 

[Mungo]

I guess you have gained this knowledge truly from the Spirit of truth inside of you Davy?

And do you get your opinions straight from the Spirit of truth?
I note that in the12 post you have made in this thread you only quote Scripture in one. The rest, including the OP, is just your opinions.

 

[APAK]

And do you get your opinions straight from the Spirit of truth?
I note that in the12 post you have made in this thread you only quote Scripture in one. The rest, including the OP, is just your opinions.

Let's do scripture then if you want Mungo. no worries

 

[amadeus]

And the thing is, some folks need more disciple in their walk...imo..and that includes really getting into scripture from different and FRESH angles to make a meal of it. To just even accomplish one new experience and where a light bulb suddenly comes on. To get out of our comfort zone, spiritually thinking. The Spirit is talking and we must listen for the voice when it happens. It is the transmission from God to our hearts into our minds. Yes, God always knows our current status and we should believe that he does. And then wait on him to provide his will, however small the tug on our heart is from him. We must make it a habit...to know when he is calling us...disciple and training is essential else folks will just stay with what they currently know of the NATURE of the Father and his Son, by/from their same teachers, and will not progress further, to the 'meat' of the word of truth.

Yes, every believer needs to be growing for as long as he has time. In this way, the new man is unlike the old man. The old man is already dead or dying. We want to kill him off sooner rather than later. The new man must continue to grow. The stand still is to stagnate, which is to die! My flesh is old, having just completed my 78th year, but not so the new men who fed properly with the flesh and blood Jesus never dies! Rather he grows stronger and closer to God... or he should. If he is not doing that, what else is there but death?

 

[amadeus]

I guess you have gained this knowledge truly from the Spirit of truth inside of you Davy?

Presumed or believed ATs [Absolute Truths] can be stumbling blocks hindering or stifling growth. Did not Jesus grow?

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52