Robots and Will Worshipers

[dev553344]

Yes, thank you. You do not believe in the Determinism defined in this thread.

So when you say you believe in a combination of Determinism and Free Will, you mean you do not believe in Determinism.

Is that all correct?

No I don't beleive the following is correct:

de·ter·min·ism
/dəˈtərməˌnizəm/

Learn to pronounce

noun
Philosophy
noun: determinism
the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

 

[Rudometkin]

No I don't beleive the following is correct:

de·ter·min·ism
/dəˈtərməˌnizəm/

Learn to pronounce

noun
Philosophy
noun: determinism
the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

I asked you if I had your position correct and you said no. So was I wrong? where? Or were you ignoring the question and addressing something else?

Then you shared what you don't believe. I appreciate you sharing more of what you believe and don't believe, but the "following" which you clarified your non-belief on isn't dealing with what I wrote. So I'm finding it difficult to communicate with you on basic terms.

I'm trying to establish some basic understanding between us. Is what I wrote about your view, correct?

Then, do you believe that Determinism (as defined in this thread) implies that individual human beings have no free will and therefore cannot be held morally responsible for their actions? I don't.

 

[Rudometkin]

What I believe he intends to convey is that God gave man the ability to choose for himself what he wants to believe and do.
God is all powerful and if He chooses He could easily control everything that happens here on earth. But that's defeating the purpose of allowing free will isn't it....and in order to claim that He judged each man fairly on judgment day indicates that He had to step back while mankind made his own decisions.
He did converse with man through the Holy Spirit to send messages....but it is still man's choice to hear the message and be obedient to it or reject it and disobey His instructions.
Obedience brings a reward...
Disobedience brings punishment.
If you are a boss of a company that uses hired help to operate the business then you enter into an agreement which explains what the company expects from the employee and what the reward is for meeting those expectations....and contrary to this is what happens if the employee does not meet expectations and what the punishment is.
It's like to be fair and just it is essential to know all the rules.

Thanks for the helpful interpretation. Considering Devin's like on your post, I figure it's at least close to, if not totally accurate

 

[dev553344]

I asked you if I had your position correct and you said no. So was I wrong? where? Or were you ignoring the question and addressing something else?

Then you shared what you don't believe. I appreciate you sharing more of what you believe and don't believe, but the "following" which you clarified your non-belief on isn't dealing with what I wrote. So I'm finding it difficult to communicate with you on basic terms.

I'm trying to establish some basic understanding between us. Is what I wrote about your view, correct?

Then, do you believe that Determinism (as defined in this thread) implies that individual human beings have no free will and therefore cannot be held morally responsible for their actions? I don't.

You're really not making any sense.

 

[Rudometkin]

I'm trying to establish some basic understanding between us. Is what I wrote about your view, correct?

You're really not making any sense.

As you find the simple message above to be nonsensical, I figure you can't have a meaningful discussion with me. Thanks for your time.

 

[Rudometkin]

And you are arguing against what scripture says. No, God does not ultimately cause everything. Nowhere does scripture make that claim. Yes, he is the ultimate authority, but as that authority, he can choose to give as much freedom to his creation as he pleases. He did not in any way cause his children to sacrifice their kids to idols (actually to demons) and he said so. But you want to argue with him about it.

If God isn't the ultimate cause of everything, then things have happened which do not have God's creation in the beginning as a starting point.

Who else do you believe creates alongside God?

Isaiah 45:5-6
I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

 

[Rudometkin]

Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? (Isaiah 45:9)

This verse specifically speaks against people who are aware of God yet question God's involvement in His work. Free Willers do this. Free Will is the notion that God has no hands working the man's will.

 

[Timtofly]

You believe man has power to think which is not controlled by God, but you believe God controls all things.

This is a logical contradiction.

If we are going to speak in simple and direct terms, then we should say you really don't believe God controls all things. Is that correct?

Even determinism is a logical contradiction in itself. Why would God determine that which is contrary to God's ultimate determination?

God is in full control, and humans have a limit to free will, and God limits what is determined. That is being totally in control. Not that total control is constantly in control. Creation was designed to run itself without control. Also there is nothing humans can do to literally remove God's control.

There is a distinction between destroying earth and destroying the earth beyond God's control to restore the earth. But God did not drive the control that destroys. God did create that which would destroy. It is debatable if that was on purpose or not.

Out of control cannot be equated to full control or lack there of. It is humans who think things are out of control, not that they are.

The contradiction has to be built into every thing that is known as omni or all. Without limits would apply to full control and any limit is part of that control. It seems rather simple if you view God as He claims: "I change not". Not being able to change is this assumed contradiction in the no limits of omni/all prefex. Creation is all about change. Since God claims perfection, then God cannot change to evil or corruption, only creation can. Since God claims control, God cannot change to no control. Yet we see most of creation is a controlled balance, and humans with free will, can change that control. Not utterly change it, but enough to damage and destroy natural control.

Because God cannot change, but creation can, God cannot be in a position of not in control of everything, yet still not control everything, because change is the point of not being in control, even if one knows the outcome. Once a change is realized, there is still full control. Nor can any change remove God's full control. And this change is going on in the trillions, every trillionth of a second. Or any larger amount one can fathom. In fact change is constant and God is still fully in control. There is a finite limit to change, and change itself is not infinite.

So the contradiction to total control is change itself. Change is the freedom to exist seemingly without control. Most change is just replication of a previous state. If change is not viable, that path ceases. God is still in control.

Control is not predicated on human thought. There is a point thoughts are randomn. I would point out no thought is original by human means. God does not need to control thoughts, because thought is part of constant change. Even thoughts though, do not produce change. Thoughts are the product of necessity and the constant change of creation itself. The only way to reduce the randomness of thought is the phenomenon of education. Humans themselves can control thoughts and produce a range of thoughts that will seemingly constantly suit the current trending needs. Give or take the interaction of billions of humans with each other. And other random factors of change that pop in and out of this ongoing phenomenon of thinking.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Then, do you believe that Determinism (as defined in this thread) implies that individual human beings have no free will and therefore cannot be held morally responsible for their actions? I don't

This is interesting...
The verse that came to mind was:

But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Where believers of free will are often accused of being "will worshipers" because they argue that they have power to think on their own apart from God, believers of determinism are often accused of believing that men are just "robots" because they argue that God controls everything the man does. These are common terms within this Christian controversy.

Discuss support and implications of the two opposing doctrines regarding 'Free Will' and 'Determinism' below.

Free Will: Man has the power to think on his own apart from God.

Determinism: God controls all things.

I wonder why it would be phrased as "the power to think on his own" rather than as...the power to make choices...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

One more thought. Are men born knowing right from wrong or are they taught it through reward/punishment?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don't think it's either/or. God made man with a will to choose between obeying Him or not, but God is also sovereign. This doesn't mean that God controls everything man does, but that God's ultimate plans will be accomplished--come hell or high water.

I didn't have the free will to begin choosing to have the obedience of trust until after I was given sight. And even then, my feet have slipped from trust and into worry.
And in my own defense, a strong memory is finding out Santa didn't exist and feeling betrayed at being lied to. Why should I have believed God existed then, when they had already lied to me about Santa, the bunny and the tooth fairy?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sister, this position makes you both a will worshipper AND a robot. You're a will-worshipping robot.

I don't know if I could face God like that.

Hah! Can any man in here be a will worshiper seeing as how his will has brought him so much misery so many times...?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

. If I'm a robot, I'm too busy working towards being the best darn robot I can be to waste much time debating it.

This could actually be a pretty apt description of me BEFORE I met God...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

God gave man a a free will.
You can do as you like.

Hmm...is man able to truly have free will to obey or not when the human heart is the most deceitful of all things and desperately wicked?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You know, that joke is really bad so that means your sense of humor is...just like mine! Lol! The worse, the better. Have you heard this one? "Time flies like an arrow but fruit flies like a banana." Later, gator.

Oh...haha!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That you think God can be a liar hints at the amount of reverence you have for Him.

Oh for Pete's sake. Are you serious?? This is ugly. Do you really think the man was saying:God is a liar??

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm seeing red flags in your discussion style.

Uh...yeah!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh good grief I just realized this thread is from 2020. Talking to my foolish SELF!! LOL.
I'm not going to bother with anymore pages. It was started in the wrong spirit for sure.
Sorry for unintentionally bringing it to the front.

 

[Curtis]

Calvinism is an insult to Gods character and nature, making him a sadistic monster.

In Calvinism, God causes every single thing that happens, without exception.

Think of the most horrific evil events you know of - god caused them all..

It gets worse. God not only causes every single thing that happens, he controls every single thought, without exception, too.

Thus the evil perverse and twisted desire and thought of the pedophile who abducts, brutally rapes, then kills a young child, thought the thoughts he did, and had the desire and lust for children, because god caused him to have such thoughts and desires, and caused him to kill the child after raping them.

The holocaust? God caused it.

The god of Calvin caused Lucifer to rebel, turn evil, and lie - making god the father of lies, not Satan.

God commanded Adam not to eat the fruit, then caused him to disobey and break His command, then punished him for breaking that command - making god the author of sin.

Reading Calvin trying to explain away the obvious fact that if god causes every action, thought, and event, it makes him responsible for all sin, causes one to realize just how ridiculous those doctrines really are.

And after trying to explain away the obvious fact that his doctrine makes god the original and biggest sinner in the universe, John Calvin’s conclusion is that god has a secret will we cannot ever understand, and should not question.