Roman Catholicism

[Lady Crosstalk]

But it is okay for you to constantly cite Catholic sources.

A non-Catholic goes on a Catholic site and disagrees and they are not there very long. Banned.

That's what makes the RCC cultish. If they really felt that those in Christ who "believed doctrines of demons" were in need of teaching the "correct" doctrine, why would they ban them?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Then we should find AT LEAST one verse that actually says "Purgatory". What we do have is verses with Gehenna (the Lake Fire), Hades or Sheol/Hades, and Tartarus, all termed "hell" in the KJV (which was very unfortunate).

We can disregard Maccabees, since it only mentions praying for the dead (a practice of unbelieving Jews, not Christians). And your reference to 1 Cor 3:12-15 is A MISAPPLICATION of Scripture. The judgments of the works of Christians in a metaphorical fire is taught there. Wood, hay, and stubble are worthless works. Gold, silver, and precious stones are worthy works.

So let's focus on Matthew 5. Is that speaking about the afterlife, or is it about life on this earth and what is administered by judges on earth?

Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

This is about adversarial relations on earth. In modern parlance Jesus is saying it is better to come to an out-of-court settlement when there is a dispute. Otherwise, the tables might turned, and the accused might become the defendant, and then the judge would turn around and demand restitution.

What we can conclude is that there is absolutely NO SUPPORT for Purgatory in the Bible. But you must admit that is was a wonderful cash cow for the Catholic Church!

This is perhaps the most asinine argument you've had yet.
WHY should the word "Purgatory" be explicitly written in Scripture.

Where is the word "Trinity"??
The doctrine of the Trinity is THE central doctrine of the Christian faith - yet the WORD doesn't exist in Scripture.
Where is the word "Incarnation"??
Again - pone of the central doctrines of the Christian faith - yet the WORD doesn't exist in Scripture.

You say that we can simply "disregard" what s said in Maccabbees because it only talks bout praying for the dead. First of all - we can't "Disregard" ANY of God's Word. Also - praying for the dead PROVES that there are some awaiting release (Purgatory). The Orthodox Jews of today STILL pray for the dead.

As for your totally ignoring the text of 1 Cor 3:12-15 - BIG mistake.
This is perhaps the most vivid illustration of God's purgatorial Refiner's fire:
1 Cor. 3:12-15
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work.
If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

It CAN'T be Heaven because the person is "suffering".
It CAN'T be Hell because the person eventually "saved".
It is talking about a THIRD state - that of final purification (purgation).

As to your flawed view on Eph. 5 - you simply don't understand Scripture because you cherry-pick it instead of reading it in its proper CONTEXT.
Read the ENTIRE lesson - not just those few verses you plucked out. To truly understand a verse - you need to read what is being said BEFORE and AFTER the verse you cherry-picked.
Matt. 5:21-26
“You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’
But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

This passage is NOT talking about earthly courts in context. Otherwise - calling your brother a "fool" would not condemn you to Gehenna.

 

[CoreIssue]

This is perhaps the most asinine argument you've had yet.
WHY should the word "Purgatory" be explicitly written in Scripture.

Where is the word "Trinity"??
The doctrine of the Trinity is THE central doctrine of the Christian faith - yet the WORD doesn't exist in Scripture.
Where is the word "Incarnation"??
Again - pone of the central doctrines of the Christian faith - yet the WORD doesn't exist in Scripture.

You say that we can simply "disregard" what s said in Maccabbees because it only talks bout praying for the dead. First of all - we can't "Disregard" ANY of God's Word. Also - praying for the dead PROVES that there are some awaiting release (Purgatory). The Orthodox Jews of today STILL pray for the dead.

As for your totally ignoring the text of 1 Cor 3:12-15 - BIG mistake.
This is perhaps the most vivid illustration of God's purgatorial Refiner's fire:
1 Cor. 3:12-15
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work.
If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

It CAN'T be Heaven because the person is "suffering".
It CAN'T be Hell because the person eventually "saved".
It is talking about a THIRD state - that of final purification (purgation).

As to your flawed view on Eph. 5 - you simply don't understand Scripture because you cherry-pick it instead of reading it in its proper CONTEXT.
Read the ENTIRE lesson - not just those few verses you plucked out. To truly understand a verse - you need to read what is being said BEFORE and AFTER the verse you cherry-picked.
Matt. 5:21-26
“You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’
But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

This passage is NOT talking about earthly courts in context. Otherwise - calling your brother a "fool" would not condemn you to Gehenna.

Maccabbees
Is not God's word.

Trinity is taught in the Bible, purgatory is not. In fact it violates the Bible. You die and go to heaven or hell, no where else.

 

[BreadOfLife]

But it is okay for you to constantly cite Catholic sources.

Nope - I NEVER send anybody to a Catholic site to watch videos.
I ALWAYS articulate my point in my post.

A non-Catholic goes on a Catholic site and disagrees and they are not there very long. Banned.

No - most Catholic site that I know if will let ANYBODY stay as long as they don't attack and lie as YOU do.

You wanna do that - go over to CARM.org.
They have PLENTY of liars there - and you'd be MORE than welcome . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Maccabbees
Is not God's word.

WHO told you that Maccabees was not God's Word??

Trinity is taught in the Bible, purgatory is not. In fact it violates the Bible. You die and go to heaven or hell, no where else.

Purgatory is ABSOLUTELY taught - in 2 Macc. 42-46, Matt. 5:25-26, 1 Cor. 3:12-15, Matt. 12:32, Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59.

 

[CoreIssue]

Nope - I NEVER send anybody to a Catholic site to watch videos.
I ALWAYS articulate my point in my post.

No - most Catholic site that I know if will let ANYBODY stay as long as they don't attack and lie as YOU do.

You wanna do that - go over to CARM.org.
They have PLENTY of liars there - and you'd be MORE than welcome . . .

So you're dictating source material can only be in writing you want accept.

And who does the interpretation of what a lie is? Catholics like you.

 

[CoreIssue]

WHO told you that Maccabees was not God's Word??

Purgatory is ABSOLUTELY taught - in 2 Macc. 42-46, Matt. 5:25-26, 1 Cor. 3:12-15, Matt. 12:32, Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59.

And who besides Catholics say it is.

The Jews never made it a part of their Scriptures.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So you're dictating source material can only be in writing you want accept.

Not sure why you posted another video when I told you that I don't watch videos.
If you can't articulates your thoughts - then maybe a discussion forum is NOT the best place for you . . .

And who does the interpretation of what a lie is? Catholics like you.

No - I never accuse anybody of lying unless I can PROVE it - and I ALWAYS prove it with you.
A lie is something that is NOT true - patently false. There is no other definition.

 

[CoreIssue]

Not sure why you posted another video when I told you that I don't watch videos.
If you can't articulates your thoughts - then maybe a discussion forum is NOT the best place for you . . .

No - I never accuse anybody of lying unless I can PROVE it - and I ALWAYS prove it with you.
A lie is something that is NOT true - patently false. There is no other definition.

What arrogance to think I only post to you.

You do not prove anything except that you are in a Catholic cult.

You don't want to watch the videos the do not presume to refute others who do.

 

[Helen]

I already told you - I don't watch video links.
This is a DISCUSSION forum. If you can't articulate your thoughts here - DON'T send me to a video to do your talking.

I'll go toe-to-toe with you on ANY subject - but I won't be sent away to watch a video that does your talking FOR you. This is probably the reason why YOUR online forum died.

Totally agree.
I too did not watch the video's. After we had "Holybookends" on this Site there was a rule make about video flooding ( like he did) and long back to back copy and pasted articles.
To me it is a lazy way to "make your point"...because it isn't 'your point' , it's someone else's point!!!

The only videos I watch are Willy T's because his are never with an agenda.

I guess in time CoreIssues will post a thread/video's about all of our choices for walking with God. He hasn't got to mine yet..he will, I am sure.
I don't hide what I believe, and neither have the SDA, LDS, JW's etc...I am sure he can fit us all into some box .

 

[BreadOfLife]

And who besides Catholics say it is.

The Jews never made it a part of their Scriptures.

And this is where your total ignorance of History and Scripture comes in.
Allow me to educate you . . .

The Deuterocanonical Books were part of the OPEN Jewish Canon until the 2nd century.
These Books include
Baruch
Judith
Tobit
1 & 2 Maccabees
Sirach
Wisdom
Portions of Esther and Daniel

There are some TWO HUNDRED (200) quotes and references to these Books on the pages of the New Testament, showing that Jesus and the NT writers studied from these Books as Scripture. They REMAINED a part of the OPEN Jewish Canon up to and AFTER the Death, Resurrection and Ascension of Christ and Destruction of the Temple.

Still with me?? Let's move on . . .

During the 2nd Jewish Revolt around 130 AD, a rabbi named Akiva (Akiba) became the head of a rabbinical school located in the city of Jamnia. It was Akiva who decided that the Deuterocanonical Books did NOT belong in the canon and removed them. This is documented in a work called, Tosefta Yadayim.

Akiva ALSO promoted the idea of a "Messiah" during his time. A false messiah by the name of Simon bar Kokhba was the one promised in Numbers 24:7 who would defeat the Romans, rebuild the Temple, and rule as the king.

So - the Canon of Scripture that YOU adhere to is a POST Christ, POST-Temple Canon decided by a man who rejected Christ as the true Messiah and promoted his own FALSE messiah.,

Good job . . .

 

[Helen]

trinity is taught in the Bible, purgatory is not. In fact it violates the Bible. You die and go to heaven or hell, no where else.

Aren't you God's loving little ray of sunshine...

Sometimes I really wonder what you do see when you read your bible...

The WORD trinity is not in the bible.
Just as the WORD purgatory is not.
But , just like trinity the concept comes across loud and clear.

You talk often about "all your studies" ( as if none of the rest of us have spent decades in studies too)

How much time do you spend WITH GOD?
NOT with a bible in your hand , or other peoples videos etc..but just YOU, one to one with the Father?

Your posts do not ring like one who has " been with Jesus"...they are harsh, hard, and judgemental.
You may judge the "cults"...but you make judgements on the people in them too. You do not know people's heart, or how they seek the Lord.
You put them down, so the you feel elevated above them.
I sense no real "caring heart" for anyone.

Many years ago I learned the lesson..."Never trust a man who does not walk with a limp." ( ie Jacob, touched by God )

 

[BreadOfLife]

What arrogance to think I only post to you.
You do not prove anything except that you are in a Catholic cult.

You don't want to watch the videos the do not presume to refute others who do.

No - like I said before: If you can't articulate your thoughts in a discussion - then MAYBE a discussion forum is NOT for you.

MAYBE this is why your own online forum died the lonely death it did . . .

 

[Stranger]

Well the Bible is very clear that true believers are to depart from Babylon or any manifestation of Mystery Babylon. The RCC certainly qualifies as a part of Mystery Babylon, therefore true believers (including the Reformers) left the Roman Church, although some tried to remain within it and ultimately failed to effect any changes. The Reformers were also convinced that the Pope was the Antichrist (though that is not really the case).

Christians also should not forget that the RCC held the Council of Trent specifically to oppose all evangelical doctrines and to call those who held to Protestant doctrines anathema (accursed). The rulings of this Council are still valid for the RCC, as anyone who reads the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) will discover.

That occurs in (Rev. 18:4). That is well into the Tribulation period. The harlot represents apostate Christianity. That will include both Roman and Protestant. Babylon represents both the political and ecclesiastical aspects of the reign of anti-christ. That some people of God are still part of her shows what I have been saying. There are people of God found in the Roman and in the Protestant churches.

Stranger

 

[Enoch111]

...That occurs in (Rev. 18:4)...

True. But how did you forget 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 (which has been applicable to Christians since it was written)?

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Separation from false Christianity or heretical cults is a command. And Romanism or Roman Catholicism is plainly false Christianity. The Gospel has been corrupted, and salvation is through "the Church" and "the sacraments". The Five Solas have been rejected.

 

[Stranger]

There are many Christians within the RCC. However, I don't think the Vatican contains a lot of Christians--and historically, it doesn't often appear to have been led by Christians--including the leadership today.

Perhaps not. I don't know. But, remember, of the reformers who were part of the Roman church at one time, they were believers and in the Roman Church. Yes they did get out, but they were believers when they were in.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

True. But how did you forget 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 (which has been applicable to Christians since it was written)?

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Separation from false Christianity or heretical cults is a command. And Romanism or Roman Catholicism is plainly false Christianity. The Gospel has been corrupted, and salvation is through "the Church" and "the sacraments". The Five Solas have been rejected.

This is contrasting believers with unbelievers. (2 Cor. 6: 14). The believer in the Roman Church will not see himself as unequally yoked because the Roman Church is Christian. Is there false doctrine in the Roman church. You bet. Is there false doctrine in Protestant churches, yes, you bet there is today. So, I am not so quick to call the Roman Church a cult.

Stranger

 

[CoreIssue]

Aren't you God's loving little ray of sunshine...

Sometimes I really wonder what you do see when you read your bible...

The WORD trinity is not in the bible.
Just as the WORD purgatory is not.
But , just like trinity the concept comes across loud and clear.

You talk often about "all your studies" ( as if none of the rest of us have spent decades in studies too)

How much time do you spend WITH GOD?
NOT with a bible in your hand , or other peoples videos etc..but just YOU, one to one with the Father?

Your posts do not ring like one who has " been with Jesus"...they are harsh, hard, and judgemental.
You may judge the "cults"...but you make judgements on the people in them too. You do not know people's heart, or how they seek the Lord.
You put them down, so the you feel elevated above them.
I sense no real "caring heart" for anyone.

Many years ago I learned the lesson..."Never trust a man who does not walk with a limp." ( ie Jacob, touched by God )

The Bible doesn't even hint at purgatory.

The post on rings was simply saying wedding rings are not evil.

The Bible says love your enemies. But it does not say they cease to be's by loving.

It says defend the word of God and use it to correct, teach and rebuke.

You condemn anybody that does.

While got news for you, I do walk with a limp because of my back and leg. Wish I didn't but I do.

My time with God is between me and God, not me and you.

If I didn't care about others I would not be here.

So think about, what does the Bible say about bearing false witness against others, as you are doing with me.

 

[Enoch111]

So, I am not so quick to call the Roman Church a cult.

What about "the cult of Mary"? That was literally a cult, as even the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia states.

 

[CoreIssue]

No - like I said before: If you can't articulate your thoughts in a discussion - then MAYBE a discussion forum is NOT for you.

MAYBE this is why your own online forum died the lonely death it did . . .

If you can't deal with the evidence presented to you, regardless of the format, you don't belong here.

It is not your forum and you are not a moderator to set rules.

We have gone through this before. Thousands come to my website every month and read. I didn't create it to be debate only.