Romans 11:25-27. New prophecy about the future or old prophecy about an ongoing reality?

[jeffweeder]

Of course all are saved by one Gospel. As Paul has said, during this time of Gentiles, Israel is in blindness. God is dealing with the Gentiles, although a handful of Jews are being saved.

But God will save all of Israel and use the Gentiles to do it. Do you have an objection to God saving all of Israel?

Did you look into the Greek word translated blindness?
It means stupidity not vision loss.

Many Israelites have come to faith and will continue to till the end, so Israel is not struck with vision loss.
Will every last Israelite on the planet be saved right at the end? I hope so, but they must come to repentance first just like every other saved Israelite has. Why would the final generation be shown any special favor?

 

[Charlie24]

Did you look into the Greek word translated blindness?
It means stupidity not vision loss.

Many Israelites have come to faith and will continue to till the end, so Israel is not struck with vision loss.
Will every last Israelite on the planet be saved right at the end? I hope so, but they must come to repentance first just like every other saved Israelite has. Why would the final generation be shown any special favor?

Paul was brought to faith the same way! It's nothing strange that God will do to bring all of Israel into Covenant.

Christ has a reason for the way Paul was brought to faith, the same reason He will do the same with all of Israel.

Why God chose this way I can't say! Although I do believe it has something to do with stiff-necked way of the Jew, to be quite frank.

 

[covenantee]

Here lies the problem with you guys! You think that since a handful of Israel are in this everlasting covenant that the promise is kept.

The Scripture plainly tells us that all of Israel will be saved, and that will be when God has kept His promise to Abraham.

They will all, every single one of them, as God said, "all of thee" will come under the covenant in Christ's Blood.

Then will the condition be met for the everlasting land promise.

So Christ is not the Heir of all things?

Who is?

Have you told Him?

 

[Charlie24]

So Christ is not the Heir of all things?

Have you told Him?

Come on man, what is this?

So you as a Gentile don't have the same promises of God as His chosen have, your going sarcastic?

 

[covenantee]

Come on man, what is this?

So you as a Gentile don't have the same promises of God as His chosen have, your going sarcastic?

Simple question.

Is Christ the Fulfillment of Hebrews 1:2, or isn't He?

 

[jeffweeder]

Paul was brought to faith the same way! It's nothing strange that God will do to bring all of Israel into Covenant.

Christ has a reason for the way Paul was brought to faith, the same reason He will do the same with all of Israel.

Why God chose this way I can't say! Although I do believe it has something to do with stiff-necked way of the Jew, to be quite frank.

Good point about Paul's conversion. Boy did he have to suffer though.
I wonder why all gentiles can't be saved if God does not show favoritism.

 

[Charlie24]

Simple question.

Is Christ the Fulfillment of Hebrews 1:2, or isn't He?

Of course, by way of what He did in His death, burial, and resurrection to reconcile man.

You are a co-heir, if it be you are in Christ, so what's the problem?

Cannot Christ do what He will with His inheritance?

Cannot Christ keep the promise His Father made with faithful Abraham?

 

[Charlie24]

Good point about Paul's conversion. Boy did he have to suffer though.
I wonder why all gentiles can't be saved if God does not show favoritism.

I don't know! But I do know this, they (the Jews) are His chosen and we had better not ever forget that!

 

[covenantee]

Of course, by way of what He did in His death, burial, and resurrection to reconcile man.

You are a co-heir, if it be you are in Christ, so what's the problem?

Cannot Christ do what He will with His inheritance?

Cannot Christ keep the promise His Father made with faithful Abraham?

Certainly. And Who is the Heir and Fulfillment of all of those promises, according to the Scriptures I've cited?

 

[covenantee]

I don't know! But I do know this, they (the Jews) are His chosen and we had better not ever forget that!

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Here lies the problem with you guys! You think that since a handful of Israel are in this everlasting covenant that the promise is kept.

The Scripture plainly tells us that all of Israel will be saved, and that will be when God has kept His promise to Abraham.

They will all, every single one of them, as God said, "all of thee" will come under the covenant in Christ's Blood.

Then will the condition be met for the everlasting land promise.

I don't wish to underestimate the depth of this disagreement, but things have changed since the Early Church. At that time, when Jesus had come the 1st time, it was the beginning of a long age of punishment for Israel. It is often disputed, but the words of Jesus, I believe, are undisputable...

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled....
32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Sadly, these words have been a cause of endless debate throughout many centuries. But times have changed. When Jesus 1st gave this prophecy, Israel was entering into a period of judgment, while at the same time a new age would begin for Gentile Christians in the area of the Roman Empire.

The nation Israel, with the exception of a few Christians, rebelled against Christ and lost their temple religion, as well as their homeland. And they entered into the Jewish Diaspora, to last in effect until the end of the age.

Actually, the present age is biblically defined by this period of Jewish punishment. The end of this age is defined, by Jesus, as the end of Jewish punishment and the salvation of the nation Israel.

The salvation of "all Israel" refers not to the salvation of every individual in Israel, but rather, to the salvation of an entire nation, as opposed to the deliverance of just a remnant. This is a political salvation, as well as a Christian salvation. The nation will turn to Christ at his coming, and Israel, as a nation, will never again fall under national punishment.

This is often confused as a claim that every individual in the nation will get saved, spiritually. This is *not* what the words mean! This is a well-worn concept in the Prophets that Israel goes through changes, from one generation to another, falling away and then returning, coming under punishment, and then being restored. At times the nation was just partially delivered. But this promise involves the hope of a full national deliverance, to last for all time.

In the early Church Christians, after a few centuries, began to give up hope in this promised restoration of Israel. Jesus' statements, and Paul's statements on this were either ignored or reinterpreted, giving rise to "Replacement Theology." Of course, it wasn't called that, because "Israel" came to be viewed as the new name for the predominantly Gentile Church. Jewish Christians were not cast out of the Church, but the idea of a full nation being saved was discarded because of Israel's experience and failure.

But throughout Christian history it was recognized that full nations had become "Christian," if only in name. In reality, though, they were "Christian" philosophically and religiously, regardless of how many imposters or failures there were. These nations adopted Christianity as their state religion. All of the countries of Europe have, at one time or another, become "Christian States." They are now turning away from Christianity and engaging in religious apostasy, but they have all, at one time, converted, as nations, to being Christian States or Nations.

So the idea of "all Israel" becoming a Christian nation cannot have been dismissed except for the fact the Jews had lost their nation and were not turning in sufficient numbers to form a Christian nation. However, in modern times, we're seeing the possibility not just of a Christian nation of Israel, but also the viability of the Israeli nation. This didn't require sufficient numbers of Christian Jews to accomplish this, but it is now thought that like Ezekiel said Israel will be restored not by any virtue that they possess, but only for the sake of God's honor and name.

Eze 36.32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign Lord. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Your quote does not prove what you wish it to prove. I can easily say that a true Christian is one who fully confesses Jesus as Lord and follows him to the cross, or to the death of carnality. This does not disprove the reality of genuine Christians.

To say that false Jews are false Jews does not disprove there are genuine Jews. Genuine Jews, according to Paul, are Jews inwardly, by converting to faith in Christ.

The fact not all Jews are doing that does not prevent the entire nation converting to Christianity in the future. If a remnant of Jews have been doing this throughout the centuries, and if entire Gentile nations have converted to Christianity, then what is to prevent an entire nation of Jews from converting their nation to Christianity?

 

[Charlie24]

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The #1 problem Paul had throughout his ministry was his introduction of justification by faith.

The Jews chased him everywhere he went to kill him over this. Only by the grace of God did Paul escape that death. And it did kill him in the end, when he had finished all that Christ gave him to do.

I said that to say this, through his teaching of justification by faith, he had to prove to the Jews they were not saved by the fact of being Abrahams seed, they were not saved by the covenant of circumcision in Abraham. He is constantly throughout his letters proving this fact to all who would listen.

In Rom. 2:28-29, Paul is here yet proving that fact!

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh."

Paul is here destroying the claim of national salvation by the Jews, the claim of salvation in the circumcision of Abraham.

"But he is a Jew which is one inwardly, and circumcision of the heart, in the spirit, and not of the Law..."

Here Paul claims that a Jew is saved only in justification by faith in Christ! The circumcision of the heart, not of the Law by circumcision of the flesh.

 

[Charlie24]

I don't wish to underestimate the depth of this disagreement, but things have changed since the Early Church. At that time, when Jesus had come the 1st time, it was the beginning of a long age of punishment for Israel. It is often disputed, but the words of Jesus, I believe, are undisputable...

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled....
32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Sadly, these words have been a cause of endless debate throughout many centuries. But times have changed. When Jesus 1st gave this prophecy, Israel was entering into a period of judgment, while at the same time a new age would begin for Gentile Christians in the area of the Roman Empire.

The nation Israel, with the exception of a few Christians, rebelled against Christ and lost their temple religion, as well as their homeland. And they entered into the Jewish Diaspora, to last in effect until the end of the age.

Actually, the present age is biblically defined by this period of Jewish punishment. The end of this age is defined, by Jesus, as the end of Jewish punishment and the salvation of the nation Israel.

The salvation of "all Israel" refers not to the salvation of every individual in Israel, but rather, to the salvation of an entire nation, as opposed to the deliverance of just a remnant. This is a political salvation, as well as a Christian salvation. The nation will turn to Christ at his coming, and Israel, as a nation, will never again fall under national punishment.

This is often confused as a claim that every individual in the nation will get saved, spiritually. This is *not* what the words mean! This is a well-worn concept in the Prophets that Israel goes through changes, from one generation to another, falling away and then returning, coming under punishment, and then being restored. At times the nation was just partially delivered. But this promise involves the hope of a full national deliverance, to last for all time.

In the early Church Christians, after a few centuries, began to give up hope in this promised restoration of Israel. Jesus' statements, and Paul's statements on this were either ignored or reinterpreted, giving rise to "Replacement Theology." Of course, it wasn't called that, because "Israel" came to be viewed as the new name for the predominantly Gentile Church. Jewish Christians were not cast out of the Church, but the idea of a full nation being saved was discarded because of Israel's experience and failure.

But throughout Christian history it was recognized that full nations had become "Christian," if only in name. In reality, though, they were "Christian" philosophically and religiously, regardless of how many imposters or failures there were. These nations adopted Christianity as their state religion. All of the countries of Europe have, at one time or another, become "Christian States." They are now turning away from Christianity and engaging in religious apostasy, but they have all, at one time, converted, as nations, to being Christian States or Nations.

So the idea of "all Israel" becoming a Christian nation cannot have been dismissed except for the fact the Jews had lost their nation and were not turning in sufficient numbers to form a Christian nation. However, in modern times, we're seeing the possibility not just of a Christian nation of Israel, but also the viability of the Israeli nation. This didn't require sufficient numbers of Christian Jews to accomplish this, but it is now thought that like Ezekiel said Israel will be restored not by any virtue that they possess, but only for the sake of God's honor and name.

Eze 36.32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign Lord. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!

It is my belief that Israel is saved by promise, not only the promise made to Abraham, but by the fact they are His chosen from the very beginning. We can't see what God sees, we can't see His purpose in many things, it is a mystery.

 

[amigo de christo]

The #1 problem Paul had throughout his ministry was his introduction of justification by faith.

The Jews chased him everywhere he went to kill him over this. Only by the grace of God did Paul escape that death. And it did kill him in the end, when he had finished all that Christ gave him to do.

I said that to say this, through his teaching of justification by faith, he had to prove to the Jews they were not saved by the fact of being Abrahams seed, they were not saved by the covenant of circumcision in Abraham. He is constantly throughout his letters proving this fact to all who would listen.

In Rom. 2:28-29, Paul is here yet proving that fact!

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh."

Paul is here destroying the claim of national salvation by the Jews, the claim of salvation in the circumcision of Abraham.

"But he is a Jew which is one inwardly, and circumcision of the heart, in the spirit, and not of the Law..."

Here Paul claims that a Jew is saved only in justification by faith in Christ! The circumcision of the heart, not of the Law by circumcision of the flesh.

STAND FIRM ON THE ONE TRUE GOSPLE . MANY have sold out to the lie . THEY have sold out to the lie .
WE MUST STAND and PROCLIAM that the only way by which one can be saved , IS FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST . DO IT TO THE END
let no man be moved away from the hope of the gospel and unto this false hope of a false love god is simply accepts all paths
and all ways , so long as they have them some good works and some lovey . cAUSE ITS FALSE .
I AM TELLING US ALL ITS FALSE . ONLY SATAN would bring a false love like that . ITS a love that will not save a soul
ONLY FAITH IN JESUS CAN SAVE A SOUL . DONT LET pope francis and other men sway us with this lie of the great delusion .
THE LIE that says GOD is fine with all paths and ways , so long as they love . ITS FALSE .
IN truth it aint LOVE at all . what kind of love would allow someone to think they can be a buddists or a muslim
or pratice homsexuality and etc . IT AINT COMING FROM GOD . ITS COMING FROM THE DEVIL .
SATAN will not release the captives , ONLY JESUS CAN . ONLY JESUS CAN . POINT TO HIM TO THE LAST BREATH my friend ,
TO THE LAST and final breath .

 

[amigo de christo]

It is my belief that Israel is saved by promise, not only the promise made to Abraham, but by the fact they are His chosen from the very beginning. We can't see what God sees, we can't see His purpose in many things, it is a mystery.

THE PROMISE IS IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE . IF they wont beleive then they TOO will not be saved . THERE simply is no other
promise given unto the jews or the gentiles that will save a one of them . THE PROMISE IS JESUS CHRIST
Now BELIEVE IN HE ALONE . that is my message to any one , whether jew or gentile . YE MUST BELEIVE IN CHRIST JESUS .

 

[covenantee]

The #1 problem Paul had throughout his ministry was his introduction of justification by faith.

The Jews chased him everywhere he went to kill him over this. Only by the grace of God did Paul escape that death. And it did kill him in the end, when he had finished all that Christ gave him to do.

I said that to say this, through his teaching of justification by faith, he had to prove to the Jews they were not saved by the fact of being Abrahams seed, they were not saved by the covenant of circumcision in Abraham. He is constantly throughout his letters proving this fact to all who would listen.

In Rom. 2:28-29, Paul is here yet proving that fact!

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh."

Paul is here destroying the claim of national salvation by the Jews, the claim of salvation in the circumcision of Abraham.

"But he is a Jew which is one inwardly, and circumcision of the heart, in the spirit, and not of the Law..."

Here Paul claims that a Jew is saved only in justification by faith in Christ! The circumcision of the heart, not of the Law by circumcision of the flesh.

Yes. So the only chosen Jew is the Jew in Romans 2:29.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes. So the only chosen Jew is the Jew in Romans 2:29.

the only true jew is the jew who BELIEVETH IN JESUS CHRIST . paul made that So clear .
No JESUS , no salvation , no matter if one was born a jew . IT wont matter . ONLY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS THE GLORIOUS RISEN
LORD and SAVOIR , the BLESSED MESSIAH OF GOD , will save a soul . PEROID .
WE must go out procliaming the same and only gospel that CHRIST and the true apostles first preached .
GOD wont be DENIED . If one wont recieve the testimony that HE gave of HIS SON CHRIST JESUS
then they make GOD out to be a liar . AS john well wrote . THERE SIMPLY IS NO OTHER NAME GIVEN UNDER HEAVEN by which one can be saved .

 

[Charlie24]

THE PROMISE IS IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE . IF they wont beleive then they TOO will not be saved . THERE simply is no other
promise given unto the jews or the gentiles that will save a one of them . THE PROMISE IS JESUS CHRIST
Now BELIEVE IN HE ALONE . that is my message to any one , whether jew or gentile . YE MUST BELEIVE IN CHRIST JESUS .

And they will! We see it in Scripture.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes. So the only chosen Jew is the Jew in Romans 2:29.

Yes! That will be all the remnant of Israel who are left from the hand of the anti-christ.

They will all see Christ and know He is the promised One.