It's not that hard. I blame people for making bad choices. You blame God.
LOL! I have no idea what that even means, or how you would even come up with such a thing. Can we quit on that one? LOL!
Grace and peace to you.
Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology
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It's Christianity: John 1:1-4 & 14; Philippians 2:6; and 1 Peter 1:20 says that Jesus existed in the form of God before the foundation of the world
1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, was made a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.
46 But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was out of earth, earthy; the second Man was the Lord from Heaven.
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God elected those who are in Christ before the foundation of the world because Jesus the Christ, who IS the Word of God, existed before the foundation of the world in the form of God, and was foreordained to be our Savior:
1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, was made a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.
46 But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was out of earth, earthy; the second Man was the Lord from Heaven.
1 Peter 1
18 Forasmuch as all of you know that all of you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, was made a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.
46 But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was out of earth, earthy; the second Man was the Lord from Heaven.
1 Peter 1
18 Forasmuch as all of you know that all of you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing all of you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit (o. pneuma) unto sincere love of the brethren, see that all of you love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word (o. logos) of God, which lives and abides for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower thereof falls away:
25 But the word (o. rhema) of the Lord endures for ever. And this is the word (o. rhema) which by the gospel is preached unto you.
We were elected in Christ before the foundation of the world.
Jesus was foreknown to be the last Adam and the seed of Abraham. John 1:14; Galatians 3:16; Philippians 2:6 and 1 Peter 1:20. Those in whom His Spirit dwells are those who abide in Him.
They are not abiding in themselves, which is what your argument implies.
22 Seeing all of you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit (o. pneuma) unto sincere love of the brethren, see that all of you love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word (o. logos) of God, which lives and abides for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower thereof falls away:
25 But the word (o. rhema) of the Lord endures for ever. And this is the word (o. rhema) which by the gospel is preached unto you.
We were elected in Christ before the foundation of the world.
Jesus was foreknown to be the last Adam and the seed of Abraham. John 1:14; Galatians 3:16; Philippians 2:6 and 1 Peter 1:20. Those in whom His Spirit dwells are those who abide in Him.
They are not abiding in themselves, which is what your argument implies.
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It's not from the Septuagint (as you first attempted to imply), and you STILL have not bothered to mention which Bible translation it's from.
If you were honest you would have mentioned which Bible translation, straight away.
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Only you accuse me of not being honest on this site. I'm not giving you the source because he's a friend of mine and I don't want you contacting him and being nasty and nasty you have been many times with me just because I know a lot.
I don't have a verse that says Jesus existed before the foundation of the world. I do have these...
- He was not unoriginated. Christ was the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16).
- He was not self-existent. “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57).
- He was not immortal. Jesus died and God resurrected Him (Acts 13:30).
- He was not all wise. Jesus “grew in wisdom” (Luke 2:52).
- He was not all-powerful. Christ said “the Son can do nothing by Himself” (John 5:19).
- He was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).
Well, let's look at 1 Corinthians 15 that you are referring to...
Verse 45... My Bible says Jesus was made a living spirit. Same with us once we are in our new bodies. Note the word made.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Verse 47... the second man (note the word man) was the Lord who did come from God who is in heaven.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Can you point that out in Matthew 25:31-46? All I see is them asking questions:
"Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?"
Where do they even acknowledge a confession that Jesus is the Christ? The only prerequisite was Jesus choosing them, not that they chose Jesus. Seems like they were not even righteous until Jesus chose them, and made them righteous. How can doing good works make one righteous?
Your verse is the prerequisite for salvation. However, one does not have to be saved in order to stand in judgment before God or Jesus. The dead can stand in judgment just as easy as the redeemed.
As the verse states even stones could be chosen and made redeemed. How many stones have you seen making a confession of faith? God can choose any one, even Saul of Tarsus. Do you think Paul would have eventually chosen God prior to death, had not Jesus chosen him on the road to Damascus? This confessing so as to be chosen, seems to be "getting the cart before the horse". God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. How did we confess before that point in order for God to choose us?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No one will be immortal, ever. That is Greek mythology.
Jesus gave up the ghost, meaning that as God, He willed Himself the Lamb slain from the foundation of world. Revelation 13:8
"of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Being slain is the term to describe Jesus when He declared it is finished. Jesus was always slain or as God; once slain, always was slain in eternity. It was God on the Cross, not a separate entity. The Holy Spirit as well. Saying that only a mere human was killed by death is a false equivalency to what took place that day. Death did not defeat Jesus on the Cross. Jesus defeated death on the Cross.
Calling Jesus immortal is saying Jesus is non-death, or carnal mindedness. Jesus is Life; the total opposite of death, not just "not death". The word immortal is based on the word mortal which is death. There is another word to describe being in Christ - Life.
Jesus was never in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Jesus was a human son of God, and only died because that was the plan to be the slain Lamb. Not just figuratively, but literally on a Roman Cross. No one killed Him, and death did not take Him. God willed the fact that the body would die and return to life after 3 days, and Jesus knew that would happen, because He told everyone it would happen before it happened.
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Matthew 25:37
"Then shall the righteous answer him..."
Jesus will make no one righteous at the final judgment.
If they're not already righteous before the final judgment, they're lost.
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I have noticed many of you use the word "mere human" referring to me and I don't know why. I never use that word. Being the resurrected son of God who He made both Lord and Christ and has given him all authority on earth and in heaven would not make him a "mere man" which is why I never use that language. But I do think it's odd that people think God died or could die or that someone could kill Him.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Matthew 25:31 is not the final Judgment. That is the whole point. They answer Him after they were made righteous. When they were brought to the judgment, they were not righteous or they would already be in Paradise. Do you claim universal righteousness?
"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another."
Were the goats righteous, and then condemned for their works?
The sheep were made righteous at this point:
"And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,"
Prior to that moment they were just "the nations".
"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another."
The sheep inherit the earth that was created in Genesis 1.
Matthew 25 was not the judgment in Revelation 20:4. Neither of those are the Judgment in Revelation 20:12.
There are no sheep mentioned in Revelation 20:12. There is not even an earth to inherit in Revelation 20:12. The earth was inherited 1,000 years prior to the judgment in Revelation 20:12.
Nations do not stand before God in Revelation 20:12. The dead from sheol and death stand in judgment in Revelation 20:12.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I never said that you said that. I said no one should say that.
When a person says that Jesus was not immortal, that implies He was mortal, without saying so directly.
God was the only being who could die on the Cross. No one else would ever qualify.
Death is not instant on a Cross. That is why a Roman soldier would make sure one was actually dead. Jesus died before the Cross killed the body, because Jesus willed what God had always planned. No one nor anything killed Jesus. God willed that Jesus would physically die, to prove that death indeed did happen. It was not a near death experience.
The point is that many argue whether Jesus was God because Jesus did physically die.
Being immortal does not prevent death. If God proclaims death, even eternal beings will die. Eternal life cannot prevent this death we are talking about. God can both create, and literally uncreate, which is the cessation of life. What we call physical death is not the cessation of the soul who is eternally that being. It is just a physical shell that returns to dust. There is not a body of sin and death waiting for the soul to go through life and death over and over again. But God could decide at any point to terminate all existence, and start over with nothing. Eternal life is promised, but it would seem that God could always change His mind, because creation has no say in what God does.
The point is God did die as the Lamb slain, because that was the.plan even prior to creation. Jesus claimed too many times to be the beginning and the end, the alpha and omega, for us to think that Jesus was just created in the first century.
Jesus did not claim that falsely just so the Jews would have a reason to kill Him according to their Law. John 19:7
"The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God."
Jesus did not make Himself the Son of God. Jesus was God from conception. The very reason the Jews rejected Jesus was the plan God had all along, and they missed the whole point. God made Jesus physically Himself to come in a physical body.
Jesus had to die, and the only Law that was broken was this one:
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Jesus was the Son of God, and was God, to directly undo what Adam did. Adam was created. Jesus was born in the womb of Mary. Philippians 2:6-8
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
Adam was disobedient causing death. Jesus was obedient in death causing eternal life.
The plan did not involve Jesus bringing the tree of life to earth and handing out fruit for all eternity. So "not death" as many use the term immortal can never work. Immortal was never a plan in God's Word.
Interesting you say this. "Satan is already defeated". Does that mean you believe death has been defeated?
Jesus said we would never die. Is that Greek mythology also?
John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Perhaps you're referring to this physical body. Is that what you meant? If so, how do you understand the phrase "you will never die"? What does that mean to you?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Jesus did not use Greek mythology to explain his point like the English translators did using Latin to translate the Greek into. Why not say life? Why use the term non-death? Immortal comes from Latin and throughout English refers to Greek mythology.
Even if you claim Paul and the Holy Spirit intentionally used a negative connotation term, it is not referring to the body, the flesh, nor the physical. It is referring to being spiritually dead and spiritually separated from God and our spirit.
Even the Greek word is "non-death". Amil of all people should understand the connotation that comes from a negative prefix. Many deny it means they say the Millennium does not exist. My point is why use that word, just because Paul did, when the term "life" means the same thing? I am not saying Paul was wrong. Even Paul knew that Satan would corrupt God's Word. I am questioning why posters today use that term.
The word "trinity" is used and it is not even found in Scripture. "Life" is a Scriptural term.
The "never dying" part is being safe from the second death.
I also believe the soul is eternal, and death is only separation from God. Death does not mean we cease to exist. From the description of the LOF it will always exist, but God will not know those who continue to exist there. A purposeful lack of memory. Perhaps one day they will be re-visited?
That is why souls are kept in death and sheol:
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Souls in sheol and death are separated from God.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I am redeemed. Why do you make your replies all about me? Can you not carry out a conversation without making it all about the poster instead of the content of the post?
The Passion (click the link) is the only 'other' version of the Bible we have not all already been aware of until the last few years. Brian Simmons, producer of The Passion is the only other translator we know of.
If anyone else gives himself the right to translate his own version of the scriptures, then all Christians have the right to know his name and his background. You are making your friend out to be a coward, too cowardly to make his name and his background known to all after creating his own version of the scriptures and handing it out to his friends.
Likewise, you have no right to quote a version of the scriptures that changed the meaning of everlasting Father to 'father of the coming age' and then not say who translated it that way, after claiming to be using another translation.
It's all so fishy that it makes me wonder if it isn't you yourself who took it upon yourself to translate it that way, and then lie again by saying you're quoting some other elusive person's elusive and unnamed version of the scriptures.
You now have an obligation to all who read this thread to either say what 'version' of the scriptures you are using and who translated it that way, or admit that you corrupted the scripture yourself, twisting the Word of God, and apologize for it.
You continue to maintain your dishonesty unless you do. The choice is yours.
If anyone else gives himself the right to translate his own version of the scriptures, then all Christians have the right to know his name and his background. You are making your friend out to be a coward, too cowardly to make his name and his background known to all after creating his own version of the scriptures and handing it out to his friends.
Likewise, you have no right to quote a version of the scriptures that changed the meaning of everlasting Father to 'father of the coming age' and then not say who translated it that way, after claiming to be using another translation.
It's all so fishy that it makes me wonder if it isn't you yourself who took it upon yourself to translate it that way, and then lie again by saying you're quoting some other elusive person's elusive and unnamed version of the scriptures.
You now have an obligation to all who read this thread to either say what 'version' of the scriptures you are using and who translated it that way, or admit that you corrupted the scripture yourself, twisting the Word of God, and apologize for it.
You continue to maintain your dishonesty unless you do. The choice is yours.
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