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Michiah-Imla

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@mailmandan just loves erroneous posts!

:jest:

 

mailmandan

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Read Romans 11, and tell me they were "cut off" from salvation.


Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the according to nature branches, take heed that He neither spare thee.
Rom 11:22 Consider therefore the goodness and cutting off of God: on them which fell, cutting off ; but on thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they continue not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the wild olive tree which is so by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?






The Mystery of Israel's Salvation


Rom 11:25 For I desire not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this secret, in order that ye should be not wise with yourselves; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is the covenant with Me to them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies on account of your sakes: but as concerning the election, they are beloved [special] on account of the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are not to be repented of.
Rom 11:30 For as ye at one time disobeyed God, yet have now obtained mercy [were pitied] through their disobedience:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, in order that through your mercy they also may be pitied .
Rom 11:32 For God shut up them all in unbelief, in order that He might pity all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the richesboth of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how inscrutable are His judgments, and His ways untraceable !
Rom 11:34 For who knew the mind of the Lord? or who became His fellow-counsellor ?
Rom 11:35 Or who gave first to Him, and it shall be repaid unto him again?

Rom 11:36 For from Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to Whom be glory for ever. Amen.
*Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.*

This is a critical part of the context here.
 
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mailmandan

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@mailmandan just loves erroneous posts!

:jest:

Which part did you find erroneous? Speaking the truth in love or judging not unless you be judged?
 

Johann

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“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22)
Why not read further?
Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Notice, a partial hardening upon YisraEl..not a cutting off from salvation....until...the fullness of the Goyim/Gentiles has come in......

Elijah in his despair thought Israel would be
extinguished. But God assured Elijah that he had preserved a remnant,
which gave Elijah hope that God would fulfill his saving promises in the
future.

In Paul’s day, as in Elijah’s day (v. 4) and today, a remnant of Jews
believe in Christ because of God’s electing grace
(cf. 9:27–29).

11:6 Election and grace are inseparable, for both show
that salvation is God’s work alone, and that it has nothing to do with works.

"lest you be wise in your own estimation" Here is another hint of the tension in the Roman church(s) (cf. Rom. 11:18).

NASB"that a partial hardening has happened to Israel"
NKJV"that a hardening in part has happened to Israel"
NRSV"a hardening has come upon part of Israel"
TEV"that the stubbornness of the people of Israel is not permanent"
NJB"One section of Israel has become blind"

This statement must be related to all of Romans 11. There have been and will continue to be some believing Jews.

This partial blindness, instigated by God (Rom. 11:8-10) because of the Jews' rejection of Jesus, fits into God's plan to redeem all mankind. God promised salvation to all (cf. Gen. 3:15). He chose Abraham to reach all (cf. Gen. 12:3). He chose Israel to reach all (cf. Exod. 19:5-6, Rom. 8:28).

Israel failed in her mission effort through pride, unfaithfulness and unbelief. God wanted to reach the Gentile world through His blessing of Israel (cf. Deuteronomy 27-29). Israel could not keep the Covenant, therefore, God's temporal judgment fell on her. Now God has taken this very judgment and used it to fulfill His original purpose of the redemption of mankind through faith (cf. Rom. 11:30-31; Ezek. 36:22-38).

"until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" This same term (pleroma) is used in Rom. 11:12 for the Jews. Both verses speak of God's foreknowledge and election. The "until" speaks of a time limit to this Gentile period (cf. Luke 21:24).

11:26 "all Israel will be saved" There are two possible interpretations.

*Hear me out on this.....*



1. This refers to national Israel-not every single individual Jew but the majority at a certain point in history.

2. This refers in some sense to spiritual Israel, the Church.

Paul used this concept in Rom. 2:28-29; Gal. 6:16; 1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6. "The full quota of the Jews" in Rom. 11:12 and "the full quota of the Gentiles" in Rom. 11:25 are in a parallel relationship. It is "all" in the sense of God's election not all in the sense of every individual. The olive tree of promise will one day be complete.

Some commentators say that this must refer to national Israel only because of

1. the context of Romans 9-11

2. the OT quotes in Rom. 11:26-27

3. the clear statement in Rom. 11:28

God still has a love and desire for Abraham's natural seed to be saved! They must come through faith in Christ (Zech. 12:10).



"as it is written" This refers to two quotes from the Septuagint of Isa. 59:20-21(Rom. 11:26) and 27:9 (Rom. 11:27).

The mechanism of salvation will be faith in Jesus the Messiah. There is no plan B, just plan A. There is only one way to be saved (cf. John 10:7-18; 11:25-29;14:6).

11:27 Isaiah 27:9, which is quoted in Rom. 11:27, combines the restoration of Israel to the Promised Land (Rom. 11:1-11) with the invitation to the traditional enemy (Gentile nations) to be included (cf. Rom. 11:12-13). If this restoration is literal then the millennium may fulfill this prophecy.

If it is figurative, then the new covenant, the mystery of the gospel, in which Jew and Gentile are joined by faith in God's Messiah will be the goal (cf. Eph. 2:11-3:13). It is difficult to decide. Some OT prophecies are applied to the New Covenant church. Yet God is faithful to His promises, even when humans are not (cf. Ezek. 36:22-36).

11:28 This verse reflects the twin aspects of election.

1. in the OT election was for service; God chose human instrumentality for the purpose of redeeming humanity

2. in the NT election is linked to the gospel and eternal salvation; this salvation of all humans made in God's image has always been the goal (cf. Gen. 3:15)

God is faithful to His promises. This is true for the OT believers and NT saints. The key is God's faithfulness, not mankind's, God's mercy, not mankind's performance. Election is for the purpose of blessing, not of excluding!

"they are beloved for the sake of the fathers" This is the promise of Exod. 20:5-6 and Deut. 5:9-10 and 7:9. Families are blessed because of the faith of previous generations. Israel was blessed because of faithful Patriarchs (cf. Deut. 4:37; 7:8; 10:15). That the Messiah would come from Judah was also a promise to David (cf. 2 Samuel 7). However, it must also be stated that even the "faithful" were unable to fully keep the Law (cf. Ezek. 36:22-36). Faith-personal faith, family faith, but not perfect faith-is acceptable to God and is potentially passed on through families (cf. 1 Cor. 7:8-16).

11:29

NASB, NKJV,
NRSV"for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable"
TEV"For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses"
NJB"God never takes back his gifts or revokes his choice"

This does not refer to spiritual gifts to individuals (cf. 1 Corinthians 12), but to God's promises of salvation, OT and NT. Election is effective. The faithfulness of God is the hope of national Israel (cf. Mal. 3:6) and spiritual Israel!

11:30-32 These verses are a summary of God's plans and purposes.

1. They are always based on His mercy (see note at Rom. 9:15-16), not arbitrary determinism. The term "mercy" is used four times in this larger context (cf. Rom. 9:15,16,18,23).

2. God has judged all humans. Jews and Gentiles are all sinful (cf. Rom. 3:9,19,23; 5:11).

3. God has used mankind's need and inability as an opportunity to show mercy to all humanity (cf. Rom. 11:22). Again in context "all" must be seen in light of Rom. 11:12 and 25-26. Not all individuals will respond to God's offer, but all are included in the scope of redemption (cf. Rom. 5:12-21; John 3:16). Oh, God, may it be so!!!

Are you with me?
 

Michiah-Imla

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“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.*

This is a critical part of the context here.

No, this is:

“Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” (Romans 11:20-21)

They didn’t believe the gospel @mailmandan . The Romans did!

Then Paul warned them that they also could be broken off with the unbelievers if they didn’t heed his warning!
 

Michiah-Imla

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Why not read further?
Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

Because that later prophecy for the unbelieving Jews did not nullify the warning to the believing Romans:

“Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” (Romans 11:20-21)
 

mailmandan

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No, this is:

“Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” (Romans 11:20-21)

They didn’t believe the gospel @mailmandan . The Romans did!

Then Paul warned them that they also could be broken off with the unbelievers if they didn’t heed his warning!
See post #644. Johann is on the right track and is properly reading this passage of scripture IN CONTEXT.
 
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Michiah-Imla

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Johann is on the right track and is properly reading this passage of scripture IN CONTEXT.

CONTEXT:

“Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” (Romans 11:20-21)

WHAT IS THE OBJECT OF BELIEF HERE @mailmandan ?

THE EASTER BUNNY OR SANTA CLAUSE???

IS IT NOT THE GOSPEL?
 

Johann

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“Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” (Romans 11:20-21)
You keep on stopping at this particular verse, and would not read the before and after?
 
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mailmandan

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CONTEXT:

“Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” (Romans 11:20-21)

WHAT IS THE OBJECT OF BELIEF HERE @mailmandan ?

THE EASTER BUNNY OR SANTA CLAUSE???

IS IT NOT THE GOSPEL?
Who is "THEY" and when were they "broken off"?
 

Michiah-Imla

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You keep on stopping at this particular verse, and would not read the before and after?

Afraid to answer the questions?

WHAT DID THE JEWS NOT BELIEVE IN?

AND WHAT FAITH WERE THE ROMANS STANDING ON THAT THEY COULD BE CUT OFF FROM?

Waiting…
 

Michiah-Imla

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Who is "THEY" and when were they "broken off"?

“They” is Israel.

They were broken off from unity with God by not believing the gospel the Romans were standing on.

And the Romans were warned not to end up cut off like the unbelievers through highmindedness.

It’s that simple!

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is heresy!
 

amigo de christo

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“I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.” (Jeremiah 23:14)

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED in action.
take a good long peek at todays churches . THEY commit adultery with the whore and walk in lies , they support ungodly sins
and thus have strengthend the hands of the dark rainbow and none does return from his wickendess
cause NOW their evil is taught as good . Speaking of sodom and gomorrah
how about this . YE are as sodom unto me , YOU no longer even HIDE YOUR SINS , YOU CELEBRATE them IN THE STREETS .
TODAY . And folks call this junk love and all inclusive we are one unity .
However IF GODS WORDS had been taught , PEOPLE would have heard truth and REPENTED . BUT Today
the word repent is SEEN as rated R in most churches .