Romans Chapter 11

[quietthinker]

The difference between prophetic time and real time are specifics, and the law of first usage. Evening and morning was a 24 hour period, thus 2300 evenings and mornings are 2300 literal 24 hour days. That is the whole reason it DOESN'T just say 2300 days, but brought us back to the first usage in creation week.

you are arguing a technicality to circumvent the prophetic principle..... it doesn't wash.

 

[Ziggy]

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Oh look. two trees..

A good olive tree and a wild olive tree..
I haven't looked at the olives yet..

of course olives was where they got the oil for the lamps right?

Exo 27:20
And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always.

that will be a fun study..

HUGS

 

[quietthinker]

I was looking at that in Revelation, and I was surprised to see that the first resurrection were of martyrs only. The second resurrection after the 1000 years could have been for all others, and the Christians would have had their names written in the Book of Life, and the wicked's names would have been blotted out.

Revelation tells the same story several times using different imagery. To read Revelation as a continual unfolding of different events has given birth to the bizarre and varied interpretations that exist. This happens because the prophetic principle....that, primarily of time, is violated.

 

[CharismaticLady]

you are arguing a technicality to circumvent the prophetic principle..... it doesn't wash.

That IS the prophetic principle. When there is a specific, it refers to the first time it was used, thus the law of first usage. 2300 evenings and mornings, looks back at creation. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to. Besides, the prophecy refers to the length of time of the Grecian king, Antiochus Epiphanes IV and was how long the Jewish rebellion (167 BC to 160 BC) was when the king desecrated the temple in 165 BC, the middle of the period of almost 7 years. The same thing happened in the next chapter regarding the second Jewish revolt of 7 years from 66 AD to 73 AD, with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. And I believe those two are paradigms of a future 7 year period called the Great Tribulation.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Revelation tells the same story several times using different imagery. To read Revelation as a continual unfolding of different events has given birth to the bizarre and varied interpretations that exist. This happens because the prophetic principle....that, primarily of time, is violated.

Daniel covers the time of the Babylonians (head of gold) to the end of time feet of iron and clay. The stone that crushes it is Jesus, the cornerstone, made without hands.

 

[Ziggy]

I have this REALLY strange feeling that the powers that be are trying to prevent me from getting through this chapter.
Nevertheless, I am pushing through. My plow is sharp. And my determination is strong.



HUGS

 

[Ziggy]

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This is my covenant with them.. I shall take away their sins.

Is this the Old covenant or the New Covenant?

 

[Ziggy]

Is a Covenant the same as a Testament?

 

[kcnalp]

I see Romans 11 as a warning against "Replacement Theology," and that God is not through with national Israel and His promises to them.

Bingo!

Zechariah 14:1-12 (NKJV)
1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, ...
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; ...
3 Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. ...
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

 

[Ziggy]

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

NLT:

Rom 11:28 Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Rom 11:29 For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
Rom 11:30 Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead.
Rom 11:31 Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

I was having trouble with verse 29 so I needed a different view.

God has imprisoned everyone....
for all have sinned (unbelief / disobedience ) and fall short of the glory of God.

 

[kcnalp]

I don't know what this"Rapture" is.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (NKJV)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[Ziggy]

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Amen!

whew..

 

[Ziggy]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (NKJV)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Where would I find this in the Old Testament?
caught up together in the clouds.. ?
Thank You
HUGS

 

[kcnalp]

Where would I find this in the Old Testament?
caught up together in the clouds.. ?
Thank You
HUGS

The New Covenant reveals Truths that are not in the OT. They do not conflict.

 

[Ziggy]

What was the main concern of the Thessalonians when it came to Paul's teachings about the End of Days?

Their primary concern involved the delay of the parousia. The Thessalonians had taken Paul's apocalyptic message seriously and were disturbed when members of the church died before Jesus' return. The church members were concerned about the ultimate fate of these dead believers.

The word parousia is mainly used in Christian theology to refer to the second coming of Christ.[14] Some sources, specifically cite that the term refers to the rapture, the first of the three stages of the return.[15] Other scholars interpret it as Christ's spiritual presence in the church.

I may have to wrestle this one out.
You guys are awesome and I appreciate all your help.
But I'm leaning towards the last line where: Other scholars interpret is as Christ's spiritual presence in the church.

If it's in the New it must be somewhere in the Old. And the only catching away I see is Elias and the chariot in the clouds..
and that kind of makes me skeptical..

patience please
Thank You
HUGS

 

[quietthinker]

That IS the prophetic principle. When there is a specific, it refers to the first time it was used, thus the law of first usage. 2300 evenings and mornings, looks back at creation. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to. Besides, the prophecy refers to the length of time of the Grecian king, Antiochus Epiphanes IV and was how long the Jewish rebellion (167 BC to 160 BC) was when the king desecrated the temple in 165 BC, the middle of the period of almost 7 years. The same thing happened in the next chapter regarding the second Jewish revolt of 7 years from 66 AD to 73 AD, with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. And I believe those two are paradigms of a future 7 year period called the Great Tribulation.

Your conclusion is drawn from a flawed prophetic time interpretation CL. It results in marking secular events. This is not the case with the day for a year prophetic understanding.

The battle is cosmic. It's centre the God Man on Earth with the ongoing struggle and history transferred to God's people till the consummation ie, the rescue mission/the finality of the struggle of God's people. Prophecy is for the purpose of understanding these things.

 

[Enoch111]

Where do you get the idea that the restoration of the Jews is after the second coming? I don't see that in Romans 11.

How did you miss this major portion of Romans 11?

ROMANS 11: THE RESTORATION OF NATIONAL ISRAEL
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [Note: The Deliverer is Christ Himself, who will deliver Zion (Jerusalem) from the Antichrist at the battle of Armageddon]
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [Note: study Ezekiel to understand this, when God regenerates believing Israel]
28 As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [Note: this is a reference to the Abrahamic Covenant. The "fathers" are the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and that covenant was reiterated to each one]
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [Note: this confirms that the Abrahamic Covenant must be fulfilled totally]
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [Note: "upon all" means all Jews will be gathered to Israel after the Second Coming of Christ. However, not all will believe on Him even though mercy is extended to all]
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[quietthinker]

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This is my covenant with them.. I shall take away their sins.

Is this the Old covenant or the New Covenant?

its the everlasting covenant!

 

[quietthinker]

Where would I find this in the Old Testament?
caught up together in the clouds.. ?
Thank You
HUGS

1 Thessalonians 4:17

 

[Ziggy]

1 Thessalonians 4:17

That's not the Old Testament..
HUGS