Romans Chapter 11

[CharismaticLady]

During that 1000 yrs the saints will be with Jesus in Heaven. Rev.20:4-6

Don't forget verse 9 shows where they are - not off the earth in heaven, but on the earth.

9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.

 

[quietthinker]

Don't forget verse 9 shows where they are - not off the earth in heaven, but on the earth.

9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.

yes...considering the context, it being that since the resurrection God's people are with Jesus in Heaven. It now appears they (the saints) with the city have descended to the Earth.

With the raised wicked, Satan is released from his prison of isolation; he now has subjects again and persuades them it was by his power they were resurrected. He convinces them that the City is justly theirs and rallies them for an attack.

 

[CharismaticLady]

yes...considering the context, it being that since the resurrection God's people are with Jesus in Heaven. It now appears they (the saints) with the city have descended to the Earth.

With the raised wicked, Satan is released from his prison of isolation; he now has subjects again and persuades them it was by his power they were resurrected. He convinces them that the City is justly theirs and rallies them for an attack.

You may be right, but for me you seem to be adding narrative to scripture. Interesting narrative, but you can see why I can't accept something not exactly spelled out.

Right now, I only see martyrs in the first resurrection as that is all that is written and known for sure.

Revelation 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Because I am totally believing that we present-day Christians are the generation to become martyrs during the Great Tribulation when all Israel will be saved (Romans 11), I am stealing myself for endurance to the very end, and will willingly lose my head. If I am alive at the end due to actually being a Philadelphian as I believe I am, not denying any part of our New Covenant, including the gifts of the Spirit, and thus don't need to prove my allegiance through martyrdom, then so be it; it will be a great honor to see with my own eyes Jesus coming in the clouds, and I know we won't have to wait much longer, brother.

 

[quietthinker]

You may be right, but for me you seem to be adding narrative to scripture. Interesting narrative, but you can see why I can't accept something not exactly spelled out.

Right now, I only see martyrs in the first resurrection as that is all that is written and known for sure.

Revelation 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Because I am totally believing that we present-day Christians are the generation to become martyrs during the Great Tribulation when all Israel will be saved (Romans 11), I am stealing myself for endurance to the very end, and will willingly lose my head. If I am alive at the end due to actually being a Philadelphian as I believe I am, not denying any part of our New Covenant, including the gifts of the Spirit, and thus don't need to prove my allegiance through martyrdom, then so be it; it will be a great honor to see with my own eyes Jesus coming in the clouds, and I know we won't have to wait much longer, brother.

Joining the dots in the order intended is our ongoing challenge.
Understanding intent is critical when it comes to interpreting symbolism. Let's say we take the word 'beheaded'; I ask myself, does this mean guillotines will be set up or swords put back in use?....hmmmmm, I think rather than majoring on specific methods this word covers executions, period! .....this violence being perpetrated throughout Earths history against God's people.

 

[Behold]

A Gentiles already in the Church, but are not overcomers,

My New Testament teaches that the born again have already overcome.

"who is it that has overcome....its all who have believed and been born again".

1 John

 

[CharismaticLady]

Joining the dots in the order intended is our ongoing challenge.
Understanding intent is critical when it comes to interpreting symbolism. Let's say we take the word 'beheaded'; I ask myself, does this mean guillotines will be set up or swords put back in use?....hmmmmm, I think rather than majoring on specific methods this word covers executions, period! .....this violence being perpetrated throughout Earths history against God's people.

I don't know if you heard or not, but under our last Democratic President - Obama - there are warehouses here full of guillotines and plastic coffins. Are they planning ahead? They sure are not being used for executions here. Just the needle and some states still have the electric chair, but no guillotines, so why are they stock-piling them? I can guess. Can you?

 

[CharismaticLady]

My New Testament teaches that the born again have already overcome.

"who is it that has overcome....its all who have believed and been born again".

1 John

No all believers have been born again. Belief requires action.

 

[quietthinker]

I don't know if you heard or not, but under our last Democratic President - Obama - there are warehouses here full of guillotines and plastic coffins. Are they planning ahead? They sure are not being used for executions here. Just the needle and some states still have the electric chair, but no guillotines, so why are they stock-piling them? I can guess. Can you?

hmmmmm, I tend to take those reports with a grain of salt.

 

[CharismaticLady]

hmmmmm, I tend to take those reports with a grain of salt.

Fine, but I saw pictures.

 

[amadeus]

I don't think they will actually have to "cut off" our heads.
I think the media is doing a good job of keeping one's mind off God.
And they are brainwashing people.
You have to "know" God. And the "knowing" is in your head, it's your brain, it's the thinking part.
If they can get control of that, they won't need to cut it off.. it's already dead..
HUGS

With John the Baptist, we see his physical head removed as a type for us. Our Head is to be Jesus. He is the Head of the Body of Christ. Are we a part or are we to be a part of His Body! It won't necessarily require a physical decapitation, but for some that may be the way of it.

 

[Ziggy]

With John the Baptist, we see his physical head removed as a type for us. Our Head is to be Jesus. He is the Head of the Body of Christ. Are we a part or are we to be a part of His Body! It won't necessarily require a physical decapitation, but for some that may be the way of it.

I see it like brainwashing.
The enemy has taken over the true church. He has made it look so hypocritical and dirty, that no one cares to go anymore.
They all turn to the world for comfort and pleasure.
So yes while on one hand they may physically try to kill your body, they are already killing your mind.

Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

HUGS

 

[amadeus]

I see it like brainwashing.
The enemy has taken over the true church. He has made it look so hypocritical and dirty, that no one cares to go anymore.

I would be careful about using the word, "true" like that. If it were the True Church, the enemy could not have taken over. Then again, people perhaps have been a part, but distracted or apathetic or whatever they have slipped from the place within the Church which could have been theirs. Is their place forever lost to them or is there still hope? I believe there is hope while a person has time... unless perhaps they have time only as a reprobate [one who has blasphemed against the Holy Ghost] in order to work for the enemy or in the left hand of God.

They all turn to the world for comfort and pleasure.
So yes while on one hand they may physically try to kill your body, they are already killing your mind.

Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

HUGS

Give God the glory! May He help us to surrender to Him so that we may be that missing place for Jesus to lay his head! Our head is to be missing and He, Jesus, is to be our Head.

 

[Ziggy]

There's about 7 billion people on this planet right now. I don't even want to think about how many that have been here since the beginning.
So, out of those 7 billion there are perhaps a few million that actually believe and have faith in God.
That to me would be the "true church" , The ones that are not all caught up in the daily to do's.
The Mary's vs. the Martha's.. so to speak.
Jesus loves Martha this is true, but her heart is into making sure everything "looks" perfect, rather than being perfect herself. Perfect.. hmm.. listening, learning, leaning on the word.. like Mary.
Most of the churches today are just for show.
Cleaning the outside while the inside is collecting scum.
The more they can persude the "true church", which if they really are true, it would be hard but not impossible, many do slip and fall.. thems the seed in the thorns.. the more decapitations happen.
And many will say in that day, did we not do what you said to do? and he will say, I never knew you.
The more people God calls to Christ, the more beheadings there will be.
And these are the ones standing before the throne that was beheaded because they first believed.
But were prosecuted/beheaded/brainwashed.. for believing.
They are the (oh such a horrid thought just crossed my mind) ...
They are the newly born or pre-born that have their walk with Jesus ended early.

There's a word for that.. but I don't want to open that can of worms again.
It's not a pleasnt topic..

Just thinking..
Thank You Amadeus
HUGS

 

[Davy]

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You think the division between Jews and Gentiles is rough.. the one going on within the Jewish community itself is even tougher.
You have those that see Christ as Saviour and those who are still waiting for him to arrive.
The Evening and the Morning. The ones still sleeping and the ones that are awake.

So what is Paul talking about??
God hasn't forsaken Israel. If he had he never would have chosen Paul to bring the Gospel to the world.
Israel look, killed the prophets, took down God's altars or pace of worship.. (which is the altar in yourself.. your closet, so to speak) and yet God left one to carry the torch..
Like Paul. And Paul gives a pretty good account how they tried to wipe him out:

2Co 11:22
Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool ) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

This one is another interesting correlation:
Mat 17:10
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

The disciples understood that Jesus spoke of John the Baptist... (hello again John)
But at that time they didn't know Paul.
And what I am hearing as I write this.. is that Paul is the "other" comforter that was to come and restore all things.

We're still in the process of being restored...
So many things have to happen first.
We have to put down our weapons against each other and pick up the plowshares and work together in the garden, in the field.. right here on earth.
And until the "Gentiles" stop treading on the "Jews", and the "Jews" recognize Jesus as Savior.. it's going to be one heck of a rocky road with lots of obstacles.

7000 men who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
What is that?

Hugs

Why are there so many Christian brethren that still do not understand who were the ones actually behind having Lord Jesus murdered?

Have you not realized that it is those very ones who also put the blame for Christ's crucifixion upon the whole of the people of Israel, when the majority of the children of Israel weren't even present in the holy land when Jesus was crucified?!? The people truly guilty of Christ's crucifixion are mixed in among the orthodox unbelieving Jews, and also the believing Jews, and even among the Gentiles.

You're showing you are not aware of the "mystery of iniquity", nor the parable of the tares, nor about the crept in unawares. Basically, it shows a lack of Old Testament Book study. Do you not realize who the 'scribes' of Israel were in Jesus' day? They were foreigners, not born of the seed of Israel (1 Chronicles 2:55). Is it any wonder those scribes often accompanied a certain group of the Pharisees and Saduccees that wanted to murder Jesus?

 

[Ziggy]

Why are there so many Christian brethren that still do not understand who were the ones actually behind having Lord Jesus murdered?

Have you not realized that it is those very ones who also put the blame for Christ's crucifixion upon the whole of the people of Israel, when the majority of the children of Israel weren't even present in the holy land when Jesus was crucified?!? The people truly guilty of Christ's crucifixion are mixed in among the orthodox unbelieving Jews, and also the believing Jews, and even among the Gentiles.

You're showing you are not aware of the "mystery of iniquity", nor the parable of the tares, nor about the crept in unawares. Basically, it shows a lack of Old Testament Book study. Do you not realize who the 'scribes' of Israel were in Jesus' day? They were foreigners, not born of the seed of Israel (1 Chronicles 2:55). Is it any wonder those scribes often accompanied a certain group of the Pharisees and Saduccees that wanted to murder Jesus?

We all killed him. That's why we all have to go to the cross and ask his forgiveness and repent.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Is there a person who has never disrespected their parents, hated their siblings, told a falsehood, wanted something that didn't belong to them, loved the world more than God?
If you do it to the least of these, you do it to him.

Jesus Christ is the Ten Commandments incarnate.
He fulfilled every one. He even fulfilled all the prophecies concerning Him.
He is the law and the testament.

And if we broke the least of the laws, we broke them all.
He was wounded for our transgressions..

You can't be pointing fingers all your life at other people.
There comes a time when one must own up and be responsible for their own faults.

Guilty, Confessed, Forgiven, Baptised, walking a new life, Him in me and me in Him.. forevermore.

AMEN

HUGS

 

[amadeus]

There's about 7 billion people on this planet right now. I don't even want to think about how many that have been here since the beginning.
So, out of those 7 billion there are perhaps a few million that actually believe and have faith in God.
That to me would be the "true church" , The ones that are not all caught up in the daily to do's.
The Mary's vs. the Martha's.. so to speak.
Jesus loves Martha this is true, but her heart is into making sure everything "looks" perfect, rather than being perfect herself. Perfect.. hmm.. listening, learning, leaning on the word.. like Mary.
Most of the churches today are just for show.
Cleaning the outside while the inside is collecting scum.
The more they can persude the "true church", which if they really are true, it would be hard but not impossible, many do slip and fall.. thems the seed in the thorns.. the more decapitations happen.
And many will say in that day, did we not do what you said to do? and he will say, I never knew you.
The more people God calls to Christ, the more beheadings there will be.
And these are the ones standing before the throne that was beheaded because they first believed.
But were prosecuted/beheaded/brainwashed.. for believing.
They are the (oh such a horrid thought just crossed my mind) ...
They are the newly born or pre-born that have their walk with Jesus ended early.

There's a word for that.. but I don't want to open that can of worms again.
It's not a pleasnt topic..

Just thinking..
Thank You Amadeus
HUGS

I am reminded here again of my dear old pastor. They removed him as the head of the little assembly pointing their fingers at his advanced age and frailty and forgetfulness. He was and is all of those, but his Spirit should have always been the important thing. They really did not remove him because he was incompetent... for he was not in spite of shortcomings in secular things. Someone else in the assembly had already been taking care of those things. They removed him in order to take on his title. But while he had always worked had worked hard to keep the inside clean as well as the outside, now the outside in spotless, but the "scum" is building up inside.

In spite of their criticism and his real shortcomings, he was the very best "pastor" among nine, that I ever had. A pastor among the wooly type sheep according what I have heard and read takes care of his sheep, protecting them from the wolves, visiting them regularly and tending to any injuries or sicknesses among them. My pastor was like that visiting everyone at home often. He visited everyone that was sick or in the hospital often. His wife had handled all of the secular details for him, but stood strong and faithful beside him, a helpmeet indeed. When she passed away [after 66 years], it was hard on him, but with God's help he carried on... The wolves in the assembly had been after him for years already, but he was tired and finally stopped fighting. There were only a couple of us willing to stand with him and his wife was gone. His ministry continues because people in many places in this country and others continue to want him to come and minister to them. He does at age 95.

 

[Davy]

We all killed him. That's why we all have to go to the cross and ask his forgiveness and repent.

I've heard that balderdash lie by the false Jews before, there's no truth in that idea of all being guilty of Christ's crucifixion. Even though we all have been concluded under sin so salvation would be to those who believe on Christ Jesus, it certainly does not mean we all are guilty of His death.

The ones behind Christ's death were foreigners that crept in of Satan's host, the children of darkness, the tares of Matthew 13. Those are the ones Jesus showed that slew the prophets which He condemned (Matthew 23:29-36)...

Matt 23:29-36
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, "If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets."
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
KJV

By generation there Jesus meant a certain seed of people, Canaanites and Kenites, foreigners of the lands of Canaan that crept in among Israel, and especially among the tribe of Judah (Jews).


God in Deut.20 told old Israel to literally wipe out a certain group of nations in the land of Canaan, and Israel failed to do it. Because of that God said He would leave those peoples to dwell among Israel as a test, to see if Israel would follow Him or not. Many of those became workers inside the temple, cutters of wood for the altar, and drawers of water, bondservants to Israel. Some of them became priests later and returned with the house of Judah remnant back to Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity. In Jeremiah 24, God pointed to them as the evil basket of figs. In Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 Lord Jesus pointed to them as false Jews who say they are Jews, but are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You think the division between Jews and Gentiles is rough.. the one going on within the Jewish community itself is even tougher.
You have those that see Christ as Saviour and those who are still waiting for him to arrive.
The Evening and the Morning. The ones still sleeping and the ones that are awake.

So what is Paul talking about??
God hasn't forsaken Israel. If he had he never would have chosen Paul to bring the Gospel to the world.
Israel look, killed the prophets, took down God's altars or pace of worship.. (which is the altar in yourself.. your closet, so to speak) and yet God left one to carry the torch..
Like Paul. And Paul gives a pretty good account how they tried to wipe him out:

2Co 11:22
Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool ) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

This one is another interesting correlation:
Mat 17:10
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

The disciples understood that Jesus spoke of John the Baptist... (hello again John)
But at that time they didn't know Paul.
And what I am hearing as I write this.. is that Paul is the "other" comforter that was to come and restore all things.

We're still in the process of being restored...
So many things have to happen first.
We have to put down our weapons against each other and pick up the plowshares and work together in the garden, in the field.. right here on earth.
And until the "Gentiles" stop treading on the "Jews", and the "Jews" recognize Jesus as Savior.. it's going to be one heck of a rocky road with lots of obstacles.

7000 men who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
What is that?

Hugs

You might be interested in a video I produced on this subject. Hopefully it adds to our discussion.

The Branches

 

[Ziggy]

I've heard that balderdash lie by the false Jews before, there's no truth in that idea of all being guilty of Christ's crucifixion. Even though we all have been concluded under sin so salvation would be to those who believe on Christ Jesus, it certainly does not mean we all are guilty of His death.

First of all, I'm not a Jew. False, true or otherwise.
Second, Jesus took your sin upon himself and was slain on the cross.
Every spit, every pluck at his beard, every slap, every thorn in his head, every blow they punched him, every time they whipped him,
they mocked him, they hammered a nail, they pierced his side..
Every single attack he took, he took for you. For your sin.
And you want to say you have no responsibilty in that, and yet you want to reap the benefits??
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Do you believe that you are included in the "our" the "us" and the "whole world" ?
Because if it was only for them at that time...
then we have no hope and might as well throw in the towel and just drop dead.
But if you believe you are just as guilty as the next guy,
Then by God's grace and mercy will he open that door and let us in.

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

God Bless You
HUGS

 

[Ziggy]

You might be interested in a video I produced on this subject. Hopefully it adds to our discussion.

The Branches

Thank You!
I enjoyed this very much..

HUGS