Rome vs Melchizedek

[Stranger]

WRONG.

The teaching on the Sheep and the Goats in Matt. 25 is about INDIVIDUALS being judged. It talks about them being separated form one another. You can deny this all you want but I already proved it by showing you the Koine Greek word used here αυτοσ (ow-tos'), which means INDIVIDUALS.
You cannot argue with what Scripture explicitly states.

As for James 2:21-23, he is not talking about faith apart from works. He states clearly that there is NO such thing. He is talking about how they go hand in hand - that are are part of the SAME thing - faith.
This is precisely why Luther and Calvin wanted to get rid of the Book of James. Luther called it "the Epistle of straw."

As for Pet. 2:22 - these false teachers WERE faithful Christians who fell away. You really need to do a study on the word, "Epignosis" instead of repeatedly denying the truth. Epignosis connotes a FULL experiential belief - not a false belief.

Finally - I never said that context doesn't mean anything. that is a lie of your own concoction.
I said that whether Peter was talking about false teachers or false believers is irrelevant in context to WHAT he is talking about - which is a LOSS of salvation.

you need to pay attention instead of hurling false charges and perverting Scripture . . .

Vines Dictonary of New Testament Words: The Greek word of nations is 'Ethnos'. Vines says, "originally a multitude, denotes a nation or people,...the Jewish people....the nations as distinct from Israel. Strongs defines 'Ethnos' as Gentile, heathen, nation, people. So, seems nations means nations, not individuals. Thus you cannot use (Matt. 25:32) to prove the individual Christian can lose their salvation.l

No matter what you say about (James 2:21-23), it occurred many years after Abraham was already declared righteous. (Gen.15:6) Thus the works spoken or are products of his faith. They do not originate his salvation.

Sorry, but 'false teachers' and 'false prophets' are not faithful believers gone astray. They are 'false'. Again, the hogs and dogs nature was never changed. Believers are never referred to as hogs or dogs. They are 'sheep'.

No, you said context was irrelevant. Don't deny it. It is plain as day in our debate. Context means nothing to you. Where did you get your list of Scripture to disprove OSAS? Anyone can get a list from google.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Even to a blind person - this entire post is a crock.

First of all - regarding (Matt. 5:13 - HOW is a person who is useless to God going to be saved??
This is a contradictory statement. This verse is about the LOSS of salvation.

As for 1 Cor. 9:27 - you're wrong again.
the Greek word Paul uses here for "disqualified" is αδοκιμοσ (ad-ok'-ee-mos) - which means "Disapproved" or "Unfit". Paul is warning against the arrogance of the false Protestant doctrine of OSAS.

As to Peter's discourse in 2 Pet. 3 - you kep dancing around the word "Epignosis".
No matter how much you dance - you'll still be wrong because of your refusal to accept the linguistic implications of this word.

Finally - your inability to accept the warning in 1 John 2:24 is based on your refusal to see the word that begins the sentence:

1 John 2:24
IF what you heard from the beginning remains in you, THEN you will remain in the Son and in the Father.

This statement is conditional on whether or not what the believer heard REMAINS in him.

These blind denials of yours are ALL based in a woefully-dangerous practice of cherry-picking Scripture to your own destruction . . .

Concerning (Matt.5:13), there is nothing there to indicate a loss of salvation. You just want to read that into it.

Concerning (1Cor. 9:27), Why am I wrong? I said it means 'disapproved'. That doesn't mean loss of salvation.

Concerning ( 2Peter 3:17), I'm not dancing around anything. I'm staying in context. Funny how you equate context with dancing.

Concerning (1 John 2:24), I'm not bothered by the word 'if'. I already explained it to you. The warning is to continual fellowship with the Father and the Son. It is not to loss of salvation. Context. It's a killer.

Why am I cherry picking and yet offering the context. Yet you just give a list of Scriptures that 'supposedly' prove a Christian can lose their salvation and offer nothing. Whose the 'cherry picker'?

Stranger

 

[epostle1]

BreadOfLife

To continue from your list in post #97.

(Matt. 5:13) This speaks to the effectiveness of the believer on the earth. If he loses that effectiveness, due to sin or worldly living, then he is of no benefit to God in using him. He is cast out, not into hell, but to be trodden under foot of men. No loss of salvation here.

It's not heaven either.
(1Cor. 9:27) Castaway means disapproved. Paul is not talking about obtaining salvation. He is talking about running the race to obtain crowns and rewards.

Yup, And you have obtained your crowns and rewards so there is no need to run, no need to persevere.

(1Cor.9:24-25) " Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." Loss of reward, not salvation.

Why run at all if you have already obtained? I think you are missing Paul's point.

(2Peter 3:17) The error of the wicked is the teaching that Christ will not come again. See (2Peter 3:3-4) " Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?" See (2Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;..." See now (2Peter 3:17) "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from you own stedfastness." The warning is not sending them to hell. It is falling from their steadfastness in the knowledge of Christs Second Coming. No loss of salvation.

None of these verses say salvation is assured. In fact, nothing in the whole Bible says salvation is assured. It's an invention by John Calvin in the 15th century.

(1John 2:24) This is a warning for the purpose of being able to continue in the fellowship of the Father and Son. See (1John 1:3) "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." Concerning the Holy Spirit, they already have the Holy Spirit. See (1John 2:27) "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you...." Then we learn to abide in Him. (1John 2:28) " And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming." So, if you don't abide in the Spirit, which taught you the truth of the Father and the Son, you will not continue in the fellowship of the Father and the Son. And, if Christ's return finds you in this condition, you will lack confidence and be ashamed. No loss of salvation.

Concerning (Matt.5:13), there is nothing there to indicate a loss of salvation. You just want to read that into it.

"to be thrown out and trampled on by men" is assurance of salvation?

Concerning (1Cor. 9:27), Why am I wrong? I said it means 'disapproved'. That doesn't mean loss of salvation.

You're wrong because Paul says it is possible that he can be disqualified. If that doesn't mean a loss of salvation, what does it mean?

oncerning ( 2Peter 3:17), I'm not dancing around anything. I'm staying in context. Funny how you equate context with dancing.

Pick the correct verse:
17 You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you will never be carried away with the error of the lawless and never lose your own stability.
This verse deals with losing stability, it says nothing about assurance of salvation.

Concerning (1 John 2:24), I'm not bothered by the word 'if'. I already explained it to you. The warning is to continual fellowship with the Father and the Son. It is not to loss of salvation. Context. It's a killer.

"IF" is a condition you are ignoring. "..IF what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father." Salvation is not lost, but it isn't gained either. Your theology makes no room for those who have never heard through no fault of their own. They all go to hell. "God so loved the world, he sent his only son. The world, not just the elect. Calvin was wrong with his double predestination, and he was wrong when he invented assurance of salvation.

Why am I cherry picking and yet offering the context. Yet you just give a list of Scriptures that 'supposedly' prove a Christian can lose their salvation and offer nothing. Whose the 'cherry picker'?

Assurance of salvation is a man made tradition, it's not in the Bible but polemically extracted from it.

The Church teaches that one can have a moral assurance of salvation; we can be certain that one who dies in the state of grace will be saved. We can be sure that by all indications, according to our fallible human judgment, we are in the state of grace. But we cannot be certain that we are in the state of grace, because grace cannot be sensed.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Concerning (Matt.5:13), there is nothing there to indicate a loss of salvation. You just want to read that into it.

Concerning (1Cor. 9:27), Why am I wrong? I said it means 'disapproved'. That doesn't mean loss of salvation.

Concerning ( 2Peter 3:17), I'm not dancing around anything. I'm staying in context. Funny how you equate context with dancing.

Concerning (1 John 2:24), I'm not bothered by the word 'if'. I already explained it to you. The warning is to continual fellowship with the Father and the Son. It is not to loss of salvation. Context. It's a killer.

Why am I cherry picking and yet offering the context. Yet you just give a list of Scriptures that 'supposedly' prove a Christian can lose their salvation and offer nothing. Whose the 'cherry picker'?

Stranger

Like I said before - YOU can believe what you want - but the Scriptures are clear:
People can and DO lose their salvation - and I have given ample Scriptural examples of it. The fact that YOU are ignoring the linguistic implication of the Greek is your own undoing.

How you try to rationalize that "unapproved" and "unfit" before God can mean anything else but a loss of salvation is nothing short of pathetic denial.
Finally, as I said before - do yourself a favor and do a study on the Greek term "Epignosis" instead of simply denying what it means . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Vines Dictonary of New Testament Words: The Greek word of nations is 'Ethnos'. Vines says, "originally a multitude, denotes a nation or people,...the Jewish people....the nations as distinct from Israel. Strongs defines 'Ethnos' as Gentile, heathen, nation, people. So, seems nations means nations, not individuals. Thus you cannot use (Matt. 25:32) to prove the individual Christian can lose their salvation.l

No matter what you say about (James 2:21-23), it occurred many years after Abraham was already declared righteous. (Gen.15:6) Thus the works spoken or are products of his faith. They do not originate his salvation.

Sorry, but 'false teachers' and 'false prophets' are not faithful believers gone astray. They are 'false'. Again, the hogs and dogs nature was never changed. Believers are never referred to as hogs or dogs. They are 'sheep'.

No, you said context was irrelevant. Don't deny it. It is plain as day in our debate. Context means nothing to you. Where did you get your list of Scripture to disprove OSAS? Anyone can get a list from google.

Stranger

And there you go again ignoring the facts and completely glossing over the evidence I have already presented:

Matt. 25:32
All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will SEPARATE PEOPLE ONE FROM ANOTHER like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Exactly what part of "SEPARATE PEOPLE ONE FROM ANOTHER" are you having difficulty understanding??
This entire lesson is about INDIVIDUAL judgment. As I educated you earlier - God doesn't grade on a curve. We are INDIVIDUALLY responsible for our own actions and inaction.

As for false teachers - YOU are making an assumption about Scripture that Scripture never makes. It never says that they were always false teachers. As we have seen all throughout history, men started out as teachers oif the truth and LATER became false teachers. Ever heard of Arias?? Nestorius?? Sebellius?? Luther?? Calvin??

ALL of these men started out believing and teaching truth and LATER went into heresy.

Finally - why do you find it necessary to LIE just because you are losing the debate??
This is what I said regarding Rom. 11:22 . . .
"As for Rom. 11:22 - the context of WHO he is speaking to is irrelevant in light of WHAT he is saying."

In other words - I'm nor "rejecting" the context. I said that WHO he is speaking to is not as important in this case as to WHAT he is saying.
Nice try, though . . .

 

[Stranger]

Like I said before - YOU can believe what you want - but the Scriptures are clear:
People can and DO lose their salvation - and I have given ample Scriptural examples of it. The fact that YOU are ignoring the linguistic implication of the Greek is your own undoing.

How you try to rationalize that "unapproved" and "unfit" before God can mean anything else but a loss of salvation is nothing short of pathetic denial.
Finally, as I said before - do yourself a favor and do a study on the Greek term "Epignosis" instead of simply denying what it means . . .

When did you say that before?

No, you gave a list of isolated Scriptures in hope of proving your point. Which they do not, once 'context' is observed.

How you try and say 'disapproved' or anything else means loss of salvation is nothing short of pathetic.

Oh, a study of the Greek. Makes one wonder. I wonder if the Pharisees, when Christ was on the earth, understood the 'Hebrew'? What do you think?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

And there you go again ignoring the facts and completely glossing over the evidence I have already presented:

Matt. 25:32
All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will SEPARATE PEOPLE ONE FROM ANOTHER like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Exactly what part of "SEPARATE PEOPLE ONE FROM ANOTHER" are you having difficulty understanding??
This entire lesson is about INDIVIDUAL judgment. As I educated you earlier - God doesn't grade on a curve. We are INDIVIDUALLY responsible for our own actions and inaction.

As for false teachers - YOU are making an assumption about Scripture that Scripture never makes. It never says that they were always false teachers. As we have seen all throughout history, men started out as teachers oif the truth and LATER became false teachers. Ever heard of Arias?? Nestorius?? Sebellius?? Luther?? Calvin??

ALL of these men started out believing and teaching truth and LATER went into heresy.

Finally - why do you find it necessary to LIE just because you are losing the debate??
This is what I said regarding Rom. 11:22 . . .
"As for Rom. 11:22 - the context of WHO he is speaking to is irrelevant in light of WHAT he is saying."

In other words - I'm nor "rejecting" the context. I said that WHO he is speaking to is not as important in this case as to WHAT he is saying.
Nice try, though . . .

If it was about individual judgement then it wouldn't say nations. (Matt. 25:32) "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another,..." 'Them' are 'nations'.

I'm not making an assumption. A false teacher or prophet is just that. False. Not true.

Exactly, you said context is irrelevant. Context is never irrelevant. Never. To avoid context means you make it say what you want. Which is what you do.

You say 'context' is irrelevant. But, you say you are not rejecting 'context'. 'Who' and 'what' is all part of context. But, no need to let that stand in your way. Need a shovel to dig that hole deeper?

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

When did you say that before?

No, you gave a list of isolated Scriptures in hope of proving your point. Which they do not, once 'context' is observed.

How you try and say 'disapproved' or anything else means loss of salvation is nothing short of pathetic.

Oh, a study of the Greek. Makes one wonder. I wonder if the Pharisees, when Christ was on the earth, understood the 'Hebrew'? What do you think?

Stranger

Show me ONE verse of Scripture - OT or NT - where a person is unfit before God or disapproved of by God and it's a GOOD thing and they have nothing to fear.
When you can to that - ya might have something.

Until then, your position is Scripturally-untenable.

 

[Stranger]

Show me ONE verse of Scripture - OT or NT - where a person is unfit before God or disapproved of by God and it's a GOOD thing and they have nothing to fear.
When you can to that - ya might have something.

Until then, your position is Scripturally-untenable.

I never said it was a good thing. I always said it was serious and a judgement from God was forthcoming. I said it doesn't speak to a loss of salvation. And you have not proved otherwise.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

If it was about individual judgement then it wouldn't say nations. (Matt. 25:32) "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another,..." 'Them' are 'nations'.

I'm not making an assumption. A false teacher or prophet is just that. False. Not true.

Exactly, you said context is irrelevant. Context is never irrelevant. Never. To avoid context means you make it say what you want. Which is what you do.

You say 'context' is irrelevant. But, you say you are not rejecting 'context'. 'Who' and 'what' is all part of context. But, no need to let that stand in your way. Need a shovel to dig that hole deeper?

Stranger

This is a really ignorant understanding of the text. Actually - it might not be ignorant - but stubborn and prideful.
Let me put it to you in plain English:

ALL of the nations will be brought before God.
He will separate each person - ONE AT A TIME.

We don't get judged as a group.
God doesn't grade on a curve.
We get judged individually.

Hope that clears things up.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'm not making an assumption. A false teacher or prophet is just that. False. Not true.

Exactly, you said context is irrelevant. Context is never irrelevant. Never. To avoid context means you make it say what you want. Which is what you do.

You say 'context' is irrelevant. But, you say you are not rejecting 'context'. 'Who' and 'what' is all part of context. But, no need to let that stand in your way. Need a shovel to dig that hole deeper?

Stranger

Holding onto the lie instead of simply accepting the truth of what I said.
Just like any other dishonest person who is losing an argument . . .

 

[Stranger]

This is a really ignorant understanding of the text. Actually - it might not be ignorant - but stubborn and prideful.
Let me put it to you in plain English:

ALL of the nations will be brought before God.
He will separate each person - ONE AT A TIME.

We don't get judged as a group.
God doesn't grade on a curve.
We get judged individually.

Hope that clears things up.

Yes, nations. It doesn't say He will separate each person.

Yes, individuals get judged. No one is saying they don't. But (Matt. 25:32) is not addressing 'individuals'. It is addressing nations.

Hope that helps.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Holding onto the lie instead of simply accepting the truth of what I said.
Just like any other dishonest person who is losing an argument . . .

As I said, need a shovel to dig that hole deeper?

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, nations. It doesn't say He will separate each person.

Yes, individuals get judged. No one is saying they don't. But (Matt. 25:32) is not addressing 'individuals'. It is addressing nations.

Hope that helps.

Stranger

WRONG.
Nations don't get into Heaven as a whole nor do they get sent to Hell as a whole.

ONE more time, sparky:
Matt. 25:32
All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will SEPARATE PEOPLE ONE FROM ANOTHER like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Exactly what part of "SEPARATE PEOPLE ONE FROM ANOTHER" are you having difficulty understanding??
Regardless of what you've been taught and regardless of WHO taught you this nonsense - God doesn't grade us on a curve.

 

[Stranger]

WRONG.
Nations don't get into Heaven as a whole nor do they get sent to Hell as a whole.

ONE more time, sparky:
Matt. 25:32
All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will SEPARATE PEOPLE ONE FROM ANOTHER like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Exactly what part of "SEPARATE PEOPLE ONE FROM ANOTHER" are you having difficulty understanding??
Regardless of what you've been taught and regardless of WHO taught you this nonsense - God doesn't grade us on a curve.

Sorry. But nations go into the kingdom of God. (Matt. 25:34) " Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

No, I have no difficulty. (Matt. 25:32) " And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:" It's pretty plain.

I didn't say anything about a curve.

Stranger

 

[tom55]

Sorry. But nations go into the kingdom of God. (Matt. 25:34) " Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

No, I have no difficulty. (Matt. 25:32) " And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:" It's pretty plain.

I didn't say anything about a curve.

Stranger

So if I, Tom55, belong to a nation that is considered a nation of sheep, even though I am personally a goat, I will go to heaven??

If I belong to a nation that is considered a nation of goats, even though I am the purest of sheep, I will go to hell??

It's not a matter of who I am or what I do it is a matter of what nation I belong to??

I'm confused <_<

 

[Stranger]

So if I, Tom55, belong to a nation that is considered a nation of sheep, even though I am personally a goat, I will go to heaven??

If I belong to a nation that is considered a nation of goats, even though I am the purest of sheep, I will go to hell??

It's not a matter of who I am or what I do it is a matter of what nation I belong to??

I'm confused <_<

Agreed. You are confused. You don't understand the 'Kingdom of God'

(Rev. 21:24) " And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."

Stranger

 

[tom55]

Agreed. You are confused. You don't understand the 'Kingdom of God'

(Rev. 21:24) " And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."

Stranger

You didn't answer my questions:

if I belong to a nation that is considered a nation of sheep, even though I am personally a goat, I will go to heaven??

If I belong to a nation that is considered a nation of goats, even though I am the purest of sheep, I will go to hell??

It's not a matter of who I am or what I do it is a matter of what nation I belong to??

Maybe I am confused because your theory is not backed up by scripture.

 

[Stranger]

You didn't answer my questions:

if I belong to a nation that is considered a nation of sheep, even though I am personally a goat, I will go to heaven??

If I belong to a nation that is considered a nation of goats, even though I am the purest of sheep, I will go to hell??

It's not a matter of who I am or what I do it is a matter of what nation I belong to??

Maybe I am confused because your theory is not backed up by scripture.

Again, this is not the 'individuals' judgement. It's the judgement of nations. The criteria of this judgement is, how did the nations treat the Jews during the Tribulation. See (Matt.25:33-46).

No, you're confused because you don't understand, or refuse to understand, the Kingdom of God.

Stranger

 

[tom55]

Again, this is not the 'individuals' judgement. It's the judgement of nations. The criteria of this judgement is, how did the nations treat the Jews during the Tribulation. See (Matt.25:33-46).

No, you're confused because you don't understand, or refuse to understand, the Kingdom of God.

Stranger

And still no answer to my questions which are based on your theory.

The reason you can't answer my questions is because your theory is not based on scripture or logic.