Rome vs Melchizedek

[Stranger]

And still no answer to my questions which are based on your theory.

The reason you can't answer my questions is because your theory is not based on scripture or logic.

I did answer your questions.

Stranger

 

[epostle1]

Nations/individuals. Why can't it be both? Why impose a dichotomy?

 

[bbyrd009]

31"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.


Might be worth noting that this happens on earth, when Christ comes in His glory, here.
And also that nations are not countries, which will significantly change the meaning there.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sorry. But nations go into the kingdom of God. (Matt. 25:34) " Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

No, I have no difficulty. (Matt. 25:32) " And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:" It's pretty plain.

I didn't say anything about a curve.

Stranger

Sooooo - YOU think that entire nations will be judged as ONE??
You believe, for example, that the United States will be judged and ALL 350 million of us will go to the same place?? This is an asinine view of the Judgement.

As I have repeatedly proven to you – the lesson of the Sheep and Goats in Matt. 25 explicitly says that the PEOPLE will be separated one from another.

“Nations” is simply a way to describe “everybody”.
This is Hermeneutics 101 . . .

 

[Stranger]

Sooooo - YOU think that entire nations will be judged as ONE??
You believe, for example, that the United States will be judged and ALL 350 million of us will go to the same place?? This is an asinine view of the Judgement.

As I have repeatedly proven to you – the lesson of the Sheep and Goats in Matt. 25 explicitly says that the PEOPLE will be separated one from another.

“Nations” is simply a way to describe “everybody”.
This is Hermeneutics 101 . . .

First of all, you haven't proven anything.

Second of all, you keep saying (Matt. 25:32) says 'people'. But it doesn't. It says 'nations'. Because 'nations' is what it means.

As I already said, you misunderstand (Matt. 25), due to your wrong interpretation of the 'Kingdom'. I don't want to get into a discussion on the Kingdom here as that would get further away from the original topic. Start a new topic on the Kingdom if you like and you can start by explaining (Matt. 25:34).

That's your hermeneutics? Yeah, I seen this same method in your efforts to prove the believer can lose their salvation. I call it magicians rabbit in the hat hermeneutics. You take different words which are meant to speak to different things, and you put them in a bag, shake em up, and pull them out and wella, they all mean the same thing. It is also an easy hermeneutic. Takes less study.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

First of all, you haven't proven anything.

Second of all, you keep saying (Matt. 25:32) says 'people'. But it doesn't. It says 'nations'. Because 'nations' is what it means.

As I already said, you misunderstand (Matt. 25), due to your wrong interpretation of the 'Kingdom'. I don't want to get into a discussion on the Kingdom here as that would get further away from the original topic. Start a new topic on the Kingdom if you like and you can start by explaining (Matt. 25:34).

That's your hermeneutics? Yeah, I seen this same method in your efforts to prove the believer can lose their salvation. I call it magicians rabbit in the hat hermeneutics. You take different words which are meant to speak to different things, and you put them in a bag, shake em up, and pull them out and wella, they all mean the same thing. It is also an easy hermeneutic. Takes less study.

Stranger

Matt. 25:32
All the NATIONS will be gathered before him, and he will separate the PEOPLE one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Nations – ετηνοσ (eth'-nos)
People – αυτοσ (ow-tos')

You LOSE because of your stubbornness and refusal to accept the Scriptural facts.

 

[Stranger]

Matt. 25:32
All the NATIONS will be gathered before him, and he will separate the PEOPLE one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Nations – ετηνοσ (eth'-nos)
People – αυτοσ (ow-tos')

You LOSE because of your stubbornness and refusal to accept the Scriptural facts.

(Matt. 25:32) "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another...." The separation is 'them' as nations, not individuals. You simply want to add the word 'people' there. People are involved, but it is as a nation of people, not individuals.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your example of 'Obama' was a tragedy. It doesn't work.

As for (John 11:25-26), belief is the key. That is in context. You are the one out of context.

I don't keep posting (Eph. 1:9). But, apparently it is a burr under your saddle. And it should be. If (John 11:25-26) shows that belief is necessary for salvation, and then (Eph. 2:8-9) shows that faith and not works is necessary for salvation, that means, faith and belief are the same.

Stranger

That's NOT what James 2:14-26 says.
James describes REAL faith - not what you and the demons have (v. 19) which is just "belief."

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by WORKS and NOT by faith alone.

 

[Stranger]

That's NOT what James 2:14-26 says.
James describes REAL faith - not what you and the demons have (v. 19) which is just "belief."

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by WORKS and NOT by faith alone.

No, James describes the works which are the product of faith. Again, the example of Abraham offering Isaac was years after he was declared righteous by faith. See (James 2:21-22) and (Gen.15:6)

Stranger

 

[tom55]

I did answer your questions.

Stranger

And still no answer.....

Can you just cut and paste my questions and put the answer under them? That way I can clearly see your answer.

 

[tom55]

Sooooo - YOU think that entire nations will be judged as ONE??
You believe, for example, that the United States will be judged and ALL 350 million of us will go to the same place?? This is an asinine view of the Judgement.

[/i][/b]

I have been basically asking that SAME QUESTION but can't get an answer.

 

[Stranger]

And still no answer.....

Can you just cut and paste my questions and put the answer under them? That way I can clearly see your answer.

Do you see clearly that (Matt. 25:32) speaks to nations? " And before him shall be gathered all nations;"

Do you see clearly that the saved nations, the sheep nations, those on Christ's right hand, enter into the kingdom? (Matt. 25:34)

Do you see clearly that the unsaved nations, the goat nations, those on Christ's left hand, enter into everlasting fire?

So clearly nations in that day will have these characteristics. Again, (Rev.21:24) "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it:"

Stranger

 

[tabletalk]

BreadOfLife

To continue from your list in post #97.

(Matt. 5:13) This speaks to the effectiveness of the believer on the earth. If he loses that effectiveness, due to sin or worldly living, then he is of no benefit to God in using him. He is cast out, not into hell, but to be trodden under foot of men. No loss of salvation here.

It's not heaven either.
(1Cor. 9:27) Castaway means disapproved. Paul is not talking about obtaining salvation. He is talking about running the race to obtain crowns and rewards.

Yup, And you have obtained your crowns and rewards so there is no need to run, no need to persevere.

(1Cor.9:24-25) " Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." Loss of reward, not salvation.

Why run at all if you have already obtained? I think you are missing Paul's point.

(2Peter 3:17) The error of the wicked is the teaching that Christ will not come again. See (2Peter 3:3-4) " Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?" See (2Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;..." See now (2Peter 3:17) "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from you own stedfastness." The warning is not sending them to hell. It is falling from their steadfastness in the knowledge of Christs Second Coming. No loss of salvation.

None of these verses say salvation is assured. In fact, nothing in the whole Bible says salvation is assured. It's an invention by John Calvin in the 15th century.

(1John 2:24) This is a warning for the purpose of being able to continue in the fellowship of the Father and Son. See (1John 1:3) "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." Concerning the Holy Spirit, they already have the Holy Spirit. See (1John 2:27) "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you...." Then we learn to abide in Him. (1John 2:28) " And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming." So, if you don't abide in the Spirit, which taught you the truth of the Father and the Son, you will not continue in the fellowship of the Father and the Son. And, if Christ's return finds you in this condition, you will lack confidence and be ashamed. No loss of salvation.

Concerning (Matt.5:13), there is nothing there to indicate a loss of salvation. You just want to read that into it.

"to be thrown out and trampled on by men" is assurance of salvation?

Concerning (1Cor. 9:27), Why am I wrong? I said it means 'disapproved'. That doesn't mean loss of salvation.

You're wrong because Paul says it is possible that he can be disqualified. If that doesn't mean a loss of salvation, what does it mean?

oncerning ( 2Peter 3:17), I'm not dancing around anything. I'm staying in context. Funny how you equate context with dancing.

Pick the correct verse:
17 You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you will never be carried away with the error of the lawless and never lose your own stability.
This verse deals with losing stability, it says nothing about assurance of salvation.

Concerning (1 John 2:24), I'm not bothered by the word 'if'. I already explained it to you. The warning is to continual fellowship with the Father and the Son. It is not to loss of salvation. Context. It's a killer.

"IF" is a condition you are ignoring. "..IF what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father." Salvation is not lost, but it isn't gained either. Your theology makes no room for those who have never heard through no fault of their own. They all go to hell. "God so loved the world, he sent his only son. The world, not just the elect. Calvin was wrong with his double predestination, and he was wrong when he invented assurance of salvation.

Why am I cherry picking and yet offering the context. Yet you just give a list of Scriptures that 'supposedly' prove a Christian can lose their salvation and offer nothing. Whose the 'cherry picker'?

Assurance of salvation is a man made tradition, it's not in the Bible but polemically extracted from it.

The Church teaches that one can have a moral assurance of salvation; we can be certain that one who dies in the state of grace will be saved. We can be sure that by all indications, according to our fallible human judgment, we are in the state of grace.



"But we cannot be certain that we are in the state of grace, because grace cannot be sensed." Does the Catholic Church proclaim with certainty that saints, such as Saint Teresa, were in a state of grace at death?

 

[bbyrd009]

Do you see clearly that (Matt. 25:32) speaks to nations? " And before him shall be gathered all nations;"

Do you see clearly that the saved nations, the sheep nations, those on Christ's right hand, enter into the kingdom? (Matt. 25:34)

Do you see clearly that the unsaved nations, the goat nations, those on Christ's left hand, enter into everlasting fire?

So clearly nations in that day will have these characteristics. Again, (Rev.21:24) "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it:"

Stranger

seems like you are still forcing "nations" to mean "countries." I think "nations" was just a way to refer to all outside of Israel, not Jews, iow, at the time.

1484 éthnos (from ethō, "forming a custom, culture") – properly, people joined by practicing similar customs or common culture; nation(s), usually referring to unbelieving Gentiles

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, James describes the works which are the product of faith. Again, the example of Abraham offering Isaac was years after he was declared righteous by faith. See (James 2:21-22) and (Gen.15:6)

Stranger

Exactly WHAT part of the following text are you having difficulty understanding??

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by WORKS and NOT by faith alone.

This is about works being an essential PART of faith - not a consequence of it.

 

[Stranger]

Exactly WHAT part of the following text are you having difficulty understanding??

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by WORKS and NOT by faith alone.

This is about works being an essential PART of faith - not a consequence of it.

I don't have any problem understanding any part of (James 2:24). My problem is you yanking it out of context to say what you want.

Again, and again, (James 2:21-22) shows the context. Works, after being declared righteous by God.

You want to isolate this verse and develop a doctrine on it. That is illegitimate. You must stay withing the context of what is being said or proved. You want to zero in on this verses and ignore the context within which it was said.

This is how people can make Scripture say whatever they want. Which is what you are doing.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

I don't have any problem understanding any part of (James 2:24). My problem is you yanking it out of context to say what you want.

Again, and again, (James 2:21-22) shows the context. Works, after being declared righteous by God.

You want to isolate this verse and develop a doctrine on it. That is illegitimate. You must stay withing the context of what is being said or proved. You want to zero in on this verses and ignore the context within which it was said.

This is how people can make Scripture say whatever they want. Which is what you are doing.

Stranger

Since you seem to be having a difficult time understanding, I’ll break it down for you.

A. Initial Salvation – The grace from God that enables us to have faith. Faith itself is a grace from God.
This is what Abraham got when he was declared righteous

B. Ongoing Sanctification – The lifelong process of being made holy.

C. Final Salvation – When we are finally sanctified at the end of our earthly life after remaining faithful to the end.
Salvation is a process – not a one-time event.

The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

Hope that helps . . .

 

[Stranger]

Since you seem to be having a difficult time understanding, I’ll break it down for you.

A. Initial Salvation – The grace from God that enables us to have faith. Faith itself is a grace from God.
This is what Abraham got when he was declared righteous

B. Ongoing Sanctification – The lifelong process of being made holy.

C. Final Salvation – When we are finally sanctified at the end of our earthly life after remaining faithful to the end.
Salvation is a process – not a one-time event.

The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

Hope that helps . . .

Our salvation is an ongoing process in this life. Which speaks to 'sanctification', and our 'glorification', which you call 'final sanctification'. I have no problem with that.

I have a problem when you say 'we die and go to heaven having endured to the end'.

Abraham was 'declared righteous' by faith. He was not declared righteous by his ability to do or work. (Gen.15;6) And, remember, Abraham was declared righteous. It doesn't say he was righteous. When you say he 'was' righteous, you involve his works. But he wasn't righteous, he was declared righteous.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Our salvation is an ongoing process in this life. Which speaks to 'sanctification', and our 'glorification', which you call 'final sanctification'. I have no problem with that.

I have a problem when you say 'we die and go to heaven having endured to the end'.

Abraham was 'declared righteous' by faith. He was not declared righteous by his ability to do or work. (Gen.15;6) And, remember, Abraham was declared righteous. It doesn't say he was righteous. When you say he 'was' righteous, you involve his works. But he wasn't righteous, he was declared righteous.

Stranger

So, it seems that the BIG difference we have is in your believe in OSAS - which is not supported by Scripture.
Being declared "righteous" does not mean that we cannot fall away by our own doing as I've shown repeatedly:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek words for “knowledge” used here are NOT the usual words (oida/gnosis). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (Epignosis) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[Stranger]

BreadOfLife

You repeatedly show your google list of Scripture verses. But I have already answered them. Yet you must hold on to them.

Well, if one is declared righteous by faith, how does he lose that righteousness by lack of works? Think. If works played no role in your being 'declared' righteous, then why would works play a role in you being undeclared righteous.

Works produces your own righteousness. We are talking about being declared righteous, which is only obtained by faith.

Stranger