Rome vs Melchizedek

[mjrhealth]

It is by faith alone we are save still people prefer tp pay fotr the free gift of Grace.

 

[Mungo]

It is by faith alone we are save still people prefer tp pay fotr the free gift of Grace.

Scripture doesn't say we are saved by 'faith alone'. That was an invention of Martin Luther.

Scripture says we are not saved by 'faith alone'.
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone". (Jas 2:24)
It couldn't be much plainer than that.

 

[mjrhealth]

Scripture doesn't say we are saved by 'faith alone'. That was an invention of Martin Luther.

No Jesus did,

By grace you are saved by faith,not by works lest any man should boast, and oh how man loves to boast and to be seeing to be doing and so earns his reward upon this earth disregarding his reward in heaven

Mat_6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

but

Mat_6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

 

[epostle1]

BreadOfLife

You repeatedly show your google list of Scripture verses. But I have already answered them. Yet you must hold on to them.

Well, if one is declared righteous by faith

declared righteous by faith alone is not in the Bible.
, how does he lose that righteousness by lack of works?

Faith and works are inseparable.

Think. If works played no role in your being 'declared' righteous, then why would works play a role in you being undeclared righteous.

Works does, in fact, play a role because they are inseparable from faith. No one is truly "declared righteous" util they are dead.

Works produces your own righteousness. We are talking about being declared righteous, which is only obtained by faith.

No one is declared infallibly and permanently righteous, that would make them perfect and sinless. If you define faith alone as intellectual ascent, you will have a problem defending it. If you define faith alone as faith + hope + charity, then faith alone is acceptable. I know of no evangelical Protestant that says we are saved by intellectual ascent alone.

"Good works" apart from the grace of Christ isn't good works at all, so we need to get on the same page. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

James 2:15-17 - here are the examples of the "works" to which James is referring - corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).
James 1:27 - another example of "works" is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.
James 2:25 - another example of "works" is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.
Joshua 2:9-11 - Rahab's fellow citizens had faith in God, but in Joshua 6:22-25, Rahab alone acted and was saved. This is faith in action.

Matt. 25:31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, <(SAVED) but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, (WORKS) I was thirsty and you gave me drink, (WORKS) I was a stranger and you welcomed me, (WORKS) 36 I was naked and you clothed me, (WORKS) I was sick and you visited me,(WORKS) I was in prison and you came to me.’(WORKS)

Matt. 10:38 - Jesus said, "he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me." Jesus defines discipleship as one's willingness to suffer with Him. Being a disciple of Jesus not only means having faith in Him, but offering our sufferings to the Father as He did.

Phil. 1:29 - for the sake of Christ we are not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake. Growing in holiness requires more than having faith in God and accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We must also willfully embrace the suffering that befalls us as part of God's plan. Thus, Christ does not want our faith alone, but our faith in action which includes faith in suffering. (worry, loss, sickness etc.)

Col. 1:24 - Paul rejoices in his sufferings and completes what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body. This proves the Catholic position regarding the efficacy of suffering. Is there something lacking in Christ's sufferings? Of course not. But because Jesus loves us so much, He allows us to participate in His redemptive suffering by leaving room in His mystical body for our own suffering. Our suffering, united with our Lord's suffering, furthers the work of His redemption.

 

[Mungo]

No Jesus did,

By grace you are saved by faith,not by works lest any man should boast, and oh how man loves to boast and to be seeing to be doing and so earns his reward upon this earth disregarding his reward in heaven

Mat_6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

but

Mat_6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

"By grace you are saved by faith..." doesn't say 'faith alone'. And isn't alms giving a work?

Hence "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone". (Jas 2:24)

Been though all the faith and works arguments with you in the thread "who-or-what-is-antichrist" - see posts 195 & 199, and this from post 204 to which you did not respond..

Paul wrote to the Galatians "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." (Gal 5:6)

This is what James was writing about in his letter.
"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (Jas 2:14-17)

If our faith is not working through love then it is a dead faith and a dead faith will not save you..

 

[BreadOfLife]

BreadOfLife

You repeatedly show your google list of Scripture verses. But I have already answered them. Yet you must hold on to them.

Well, if one is declared righteous by faith, how does he lose that righteousness by lack of works? Think. If works played no role in your being 'declared' righteous, then why would works play a role in you being undeclared righteous.

Works produces your own righteousness. We are talking about being declared righteous, which is only obtained by faith.

Stranger

The reason I keep posting this list is to expose the fact that YOU are ignoring the word "Epignosis."
As long as those who are reading this exchange understand that your argument dies a quick death because of this - they can come to the correct conclusion that salvation is NOT guaranteed if we don't cooperate with God's grace.

I advised you to look up the word "Epignosis" and have given you it's definition - yet you continue to state that it simply means "knowledge" (oida/gnosis).
This is the kind of denial for which that God will hold you accountable . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

It is by faith alone we are save still people prefer tp pay fotr the free gift of Grace.

As long as YOU and Stranger insist that faith is simply "believing" - then you have absolutely no idea what true faith actually is.
As I have repeatedly shown both of you - even the DEMONS "believe" - yet they aren't saved.

No - Scripture shows us over and over again that TRUE faith requires BOTH belief and works, which is cooperating (sunergos) with God's grace (Matt. 25:31-46, Matt. 23:37, Luke 13:34, Rom. 8:28, 2 Cor. 6:1, Col. 1:24, Rev. 3:15-16).

.

 

[tom55]

Do you see clearly that (Matt. 25:32) speaks to nations? " And before him shall be gathered all nations;"

Do you see clearly that the saved nations, the sheep nations, those on Christ's right hand, enter into the kingdom? (Matt. 25:34)

Do you see clearly that the unsaved nations, the goat nations, those on Christ's left hand, enter into everlasting fire?

So clearly nations in that day will have these characteristics. Again, (Rev.21:24) "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it:"

Stranger

I give up....

Your theory makes no sense and is not backed up by logic or scripture. You have been shown this MANY times by myself and several other members of Cyb but you are too proud to admit you are wrong.

 

[Stranger]

I give up....

Your theory makes no sense and is not backed up by logic or scripture. You have been shown this MANY times by myself and several other members of Cyb but you are too proud to admit you are wrong.

No, you give up because I have answered your questions and you have no response. Other than, I must be wrong because....I am proud, so must be wrong.

See, you don't really want an answer to your questions. You believe your questions have no answer other than your answer. You'll be back.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

The reason I keep posting this list is to expose the fact that YOU are ignoring the word "Epignosis."
As long as those who are reading this exchange understand that your argument dies a quick death because of this - they can come to the correct conclusion that salvation is NOT guaranteed if we don't cooperate with God's grace.

I advised you to look up the word "Epignosis" and have given you it's definition - yet you continue to state that it simply means "knowledge" (oida/gnosis).
This is the kind of denial for which that God will hold you accountable . . .

No, you keep posting a google list because it's all you got. Looks impressive...but found to be pretty empty once the debate begins.

Really? Where did I say 'epignosis' means simply knowledge?

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, you give up because I have answered your questions and you have no response. Other than, I must be wrong because....I am proud, so must be wrong.

See, you don't really want an answer to your questions. You believe your questions have no answer other than your answer. You'll be back.

Stranger

No - I never gave up and you're position STILL doesn't make sense.

You claim that Matt. 25:32 is talking about a judgment of "Nations" yet you fail to see that individuals are being spoken of here:
Matt. 25:32
All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will SEPARATE PEOPLE ONE FROM ANOTHER like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

I have asked you repeatedly to show me where the Bible teaches that God will judge us according to which nation we belong to and you have failed to do so.
I told you that God does not judge us on a curve and you agreed - only to repeat your nonsense that we will be judged according to which nation we belong to.

You're all over the place because you've been caught with your Scriptural pants down and you can't admit that you're wrong.
Truly pathetic . . .

 

[Stranger]

No - I never gave up and you're position STILL doesn't make sense.

You claim that Matt. 25:32 is talking about a judgment of "Nations" yet you fail to see that individuals are being spoken of here:
Matt. 25:32
All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will SEPARATE PEOPLE ONE FROM ANOTHER like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

I have asked you repeatedly to show me where the Bible teaches that God will judge us according to which nation we belong to and you have failed to do so.
I told you that God does not judge us on a curve and you agreed - only to repeat your nonsense that we will be judged according to which nation we belong to.

You're all over the place because you've been caught with your Scriptural pants down and you can't admit that you're wrong.
Truly pathetic . . .

Please pay attention. My response here was not to you.

But just to answer...I have shown you in the Bible where God will judge according to the 'nations'. You just don't believe it. You add the word 'people'. Scripture says 'nations'.
My response to you was post #170. Still waiting your response.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

ya, pretty sure "nations" was just the common euphemism at the time for "everyone who is not Jewish."

 

[BreadOfLife]

Please pay attention. My response here was not to you.

But just to answer...I have shown you in the Bible where God will judge according to the 'nations'. You just don't believe it. You add the word 'people'. Scripture says 'nations'.
My response to you was post #170. Still waiting your response.

Stranger

WRONG.
I have repeatedly shown you the verse - in English and in Greek.
The words "Nations" and "PEOPLE" are BOTH used. Since you are obviously having difficulty - I will highlight the words in different colors:
Matt. 25:32http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/Matt. 25.32
All the NATIONS will be assembled before him, and he will SEPARATE PEOPLE ONE FROM ANOTHER like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, pal . . .

 

[Stranger]

WRONG.
I have repeatedly shown you the verse - in English and in Greek.
The words "Nations" and "PEOPLE" are BOTH used. Since you are obviously having difficulty - I will highlight the words in different colors:
Matt. 25:32http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/Matt. 25.32
All the NATIONS will be assembled before him, and he will SEPARATE PEOPLE ONE FROM ANOTHER like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, pal . . .

No, not wrong. The response I gave was not to you. And I'm waiting for your response to my post #170.

Again, the word 'people' is not there. The word 'nations' and 'them' which refers to the nations is there. I know, you're big with the 'buzz words' such as 'denial'. But, as always, you say things but don't prove anything.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, not wrong. The response I gave was not to you. And I'm waiting for your response to my post #170.

Again, the word 'people' is not there. The word 'nations' and 'them' which refers to the nations is there. I know, you're big with the 'buzz words' such as 'denial'. But, as always, you say things but don't prove anything.

Stranger

And i already proved to you - in the Greek - that BOTH words are there:

Matt. 25:32
All the NATIONS will be gathered before him, and he will separate the PEOPLE one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
καὶ συναχθήσονται ἔμπροσθεν αὐτοῦ πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, καὶ ἀφορίσει αὐτοὺς ἀπ᾿ ἀλλήλων, ὥσπερ ὁ ποιμὴν ἀφορίζει τὰ πρόβατα ἀπὸ τῶν ἐρίφων,

Nations – ἔθνη (eth'-nos)
People – αὐτοὺς (ow-tos')


Don't you ever tire of being publicly humiliated?

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, you keep posting a google list because it's all you got. Looks impressive...but found to be pretty empty once the debate begins.

Really? Where did I say 'epignosis' means simply knowledge?

Stranger

You must REALLY love being publicly humiliated . . .

In post #100 - YOU said:
"They have a knowledge but they are not saved."


In post #108 - YOU said:
"Concerning (2Peter 2:20-22), they had a knowledge but were not believers. Big difference"

Ummmm, ONE more time:
"Epignosis" means FULL experientlal knowledge.
experienced Jesus in a FULL and COMPLETE way - as TRUE believers.

Gnosis and oida simply mean "knowledge".
This indicates that you know ABOUT something or someone but you don't TRULY know them.

Pretty simple, really . . .

 

[Stranger]

And i already proved to you - in the Greek - that BOTH words are there:

Matt. 25:32
All the NATIONS will be gathered before him, and he will separate the PEOPLE one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
καὶ συναχθήσονται ἔμπροσθεν αὐτοῦ πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, καὶ ἀφορίσει αὐτοὺς ἀπ᾿ ἀλλήλων, ὥσπερ ὁ ποιμὴν ἀφορίζει τὰ πρόβατα ἀπὸ τῶν ἐρίφων,

Nations – ἔθνη (eth'-nos)
People – αὐτοὺς (ow-tos')

Don't you ever tire of being publicly humiliated?

The word 'them' speaks to 'nations'. The word 'people' is not there.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

You must REALLY love being publicly humiliated . . .

In post #100 - YOU said:
"They have a knowledge but they are not saved."


In post #108 - YOU said:
"Concerning (2Peter 2:20-22), they had a knowledge but were not believers. Big difference"

Ummmm, ONE more time:
"Epignosis" means FULL experientlal knowledge.
experienced Jesus in a FULL and COMPLETE way - as TRUE believers.

Gnosis and oida simply mean "knowledge".
This indicates that you know ABOUT something or someone but you don't TRULY know them.

Pretty simple, really . . .

Thank you.

As I said, which you show, 'they have a knowledge but they are not saved'. And, 'they had a knowledge but were not believers'. Knowledge alone does not make a believer.

See (Rom.1:32) " Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

So, a definition of a 'word' alone does not interpret the verse or verses. How it is used in 'context' is what you should look for.

No where in Scripture does knowledge of God equal faith in Christ for salvation.

I can bear the humiliation.

Stranger

 

[mjrhealth]

A bit like this bit

Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

yet than he says

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

so many without oil in there lamps