Rome's 7 0F 10 Hills

[BibleScribe]

I think we all agree that the clay & Iron empire is a divided empire that comes after the Roman empire. doe not the empire have iron within it? Therefore it has the Rome within it.

...

Hi Tsigano,

I think it's readily apparent that the empire of the Iron and Clay comes after the Roman empire. However your "Roman" doctrine fails to comply with the Daniel 2:45 sequence (i.e., 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE) and instead follow the false 1,2,3,4a/4b, by assuming that somehow a Revived Rome is affiliated with this FIFTH empire. For History tells us Rome is DEAD, and another (Italy) occupies that ancient geography. And so if Rome is DEAD, then what is the Iron that is retained in this distinct FIFTH "divided" world empire?

The answer is a simple as world History which acknowledges that the Roman Empire was never conquered, -- it simply dissolved from within. And where all the disparate kingdoms, fifedoms, and regions followed the Roman Representative Republic model, when Rome fell there was no new model to conform with. So the people were no longer Roman, but they retained the Republic form of governance such that today we see virtually all the world's nations using representative governments, as evidenced:

... and to the Republic, for which it stands ...


And of course we also evidence the era of a "divided" empire, consisting of three-superpowers, one of which is a "Lion/Eagle"; the second a "Bear"; and the third a "Leopard", (which is actually a Tiger), -- all in conformance with the simple math of:

Daniel 2 FIVE (for which the fifth is "divided")
Daniel 7 FOUR (which represent the FIFTH "divided" empire)


For as our second grade teacher insisted, FIVE ≠ FOUR.




However, if you insist that Daniel 2:45 does not have the above significance, then please provide a rational explanation for the sequence: ~4,3,5,2,1.

BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

Hi Tsigano,

I think it's readily apparent that the empire of the Iron and Clay comes after the Roman empire. However your "Roman" doctrine fails to comply with the Daniel 2:45 sequence (i.e., 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE) and instead follow the false 1,2,3,4a/4b, by assuming that somehow a Revived Rome is affiliated with this FIFTH empire. For History tells us Rome is DEAD, and another (Italy) occupies that ancient geography. And so if Rome is DEAD, then what is the Iron that is retained in this distinct FIFTH "divided" world empire?

The answer is a simple as world History which acknowledges that the Roman Empire was never conquered, -- it simply dissolved from within. And where all the disparate kingdoms, fifedoms, and regions followed the Roman Representative Republic model, when Rome fell there was no new model to conform with. So the people were no longer Roman, but they retained the Republic form of governance such that today we see virtually all the world's nations using representative governments, as evidenced:

... and to the Republic, for which it stands ...


And of course we also evidence the era of a "divided" empire, consisting of three-superpowers, one of which is a "Lion/Eagle"; the second a "Bear"; and the third a "Leopard", (which is actually a Tiger), -- all in conformance with the simple math of:

Daniel 2 FIVE (for which the fifth is "divided")
Daniel 7 FOUR (which represent the FIFTH "divided" empire)


For as our second grade teacher insisted, FIVE ≠ FOUR.




However, if you insist that Daniel 2:45 does not have the above significance, then please provide a rational explanation for the sequence: ~4,3,5,2,1.

BibleScribe

The four-beast vision of Daniel represents four superpower nations at the time of the end. However, it is my belief that two of those superpowers ( USA / Russia ) will be seriously reduced in political and military power as a result of a limited nuclear strike on them during the Gog invasion of Israel. In the aftermath, AC seizes the opportunity to unite THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE NATIONS, as well as what's left of Russia and the USA , including Canada, Latin America, Australia, and parts of Africa ( all predominately Christian nations btw ) into a world block of power under the control of the AC, who rules from Rome, and in, the EU ( the last remaining superpower on Earth ). This would entail the gathering of 2/3rds of the nations of earth who, coincidentally, are all Christian nations. This raises the fear of the 4 kings of the East who set-out themselves to gather-up what is left of the nations AC didn't collect. And the stage is set for the obliteration of Christianity from the face of the earth, The Mark, the rise of AC's army, and the plagues associated with nuclear fallout, etc., leading up to, and including, Armageddon.

 

[BibleScribe]

My bad and I apologize. It wasn't intentional....
...

No problem, -- just thought it coincidental that you hold to a 4a/4b scenario, and it appeared the True FIVE world empire sequence (as defined per Daniel 2:45) was either intentionally or unintentionally absent.

The four-beast vision of Daniel represents four superpower nations at the time of the end.

Ummmmmm, according to modern geo-political events, there's only three superpowers -- the United States, Russia, and China. However, there is a fourth "dreadful" beast which will obtain the sovereignty of these three. This fourth beast "was and is not" as it has NO geography, NO populous, NO army, etc., and is the United Nations.

However, it is my belief that two of those superpowers ( USA / Russia ) will be seriously reduced in political and military power as a result of a limited nuclear strike on them during the Gog invasion of Israel. In the aftermath, AC seizes the opportunity to unite THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE NATIONS, as well as what's left of Russia and the USA , including Canada, Latin America, Australia, and parts of Africa ( all predominately Christian nations btw ) into a world block of power under the control of the AC, who rules from Rome, and in, the EU ( the last remaining superpower on Earth ). This would entail the gathering of 2/3rds of the nations of earth who, coincidentally, are all Christian nations. This raises the fear of the 4 kings of the East who set-out themselves to gather-up what is left of the nations AC didn't collect. And the stage is set for the obliteration of Christianity from the face of the earth, The Mark, the rise of AC's army, and the plagues associated with nuclear fallout, etc., leading up to, and including, Armageddon.

I would anticipate that GOD has already defined future events, which do not match your expectations. Have you considered what Scripture says?

Daniel 2
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay, "divided"

Daniel 2 & 7
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle -- U.K./U.S. (please note that Daniel 11:5 depicts this association)
-- 6. Bear with 3-ribs -- Russia and the three (and ONLY three) international violations since WWII
-- 7. Leopard with 4-heads/4-wings -- China, with the FOUR branches of government / "FOUR Modernizations"
-- 8. "dreadful" -- which "was and is not", because it has NO populous, NO geography, NO army, etc.


So the question is, -- are we to postulate theories, or understand the provisions found in Scripture? And if the former, then is Scripture of no further value?

BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

No problem, -- just thought it coincidental that you hold to a 4a/4b scenario, and it appeared the True FIVE world empire sequence (as defined per Daniel 2:45) was either intentionally or unintentionally absent.






Ummmmmm, according to modern geo-political events, there's only three superpowers -- the United States, Russia, and China. However, there is a fourth "dreadful" beast which will obtain the sovereignty of these three. This fourth beast "was and is not" as it has NO geography, NO populous, NO army, etc., and is the United Nations.




I would anticipate that GOD has already defined future events, which do not match your expectations. Have you considered what Scripture says?

Daniel 2
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay, "divided"

Daniel 2 & 7
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle -- U.K./U.S. (please note that Daniel 11:5 depicts this association)
-- 6. Bear with 3-ribs -- Russia and the three (and ONLY three) international violations since WWII
-- 7. Leopard with 4-heads/4-wings -- China, with the FOUR branches of government / "FOUR Modernizations"
-- 8. "dreadful" -- which "was and is not", because it has NO populous, NO geography, NO army, etc.


So the question is, -- are we to postulate theories, or understand the provisions found in Scripture? And if the former, then is Scripture of no further value?

BibleScribe

God doesn't know what he's talking about....I do....

My scenario of events comes as a result of 35 years of reading and deciphering the prophecies, independent of any outside, extra biblical material.....that is....The words of scripture ALONE. I have read many scholarly works, etc., but a have relied almost exclusively on scripture, AND NEARLY NOTHING IN DOGMA. Trust you me, I have considered many other theories...including your's....and come back to the same conclusion. I was called to do this, and I have answered that calling.

 

[Tsigano]

Hi Tsigano,

I think it's readily apparent that the empire of the Iron and Clay comes after the Roman empire. However your "Roman" doctrine fails to comply with the Daniel 2:45 sequence
BibleScribe

How does Daniel 2:45 change anything? How does it stop the beast with ten horns being Rome?
You try to rely on this verse to disprove Rome yet it makes no difference. Yet you still deny the entire chapter of Rev 12.

If in Daniel 2
Gold = Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar kingdom as stated by Daniel)
Silver = Medes / Persia (obviously the next kingdom after Babylon)
Bronze = Greece (obviously the second kingdom after Babylon)
Iron = Rome (Obviously the fourth kingdom after Rome)
then Iron & clay is obviously the Iron = Rome mixed with clay.

You say that Rome is now a part of Italy but Italy is just a country and not an empire. Even during the days of ancient Rome, it was in Italia (Italy). With regards to an empire, all through the medieval time period and basically every time to date, Rome (through Catholicism) has dictated and has been a governing power to all European powers. Even the kings of England, France, Germany etc were picked dependent on the Popes blessing. Just watch the new film out titled "Ironclad" to see examples of this. The Pope lives and always has lived in Rome. The crusades were started by words by the pope. Again this was reacted upon by all the European powers regardless of country.
Even the EU was started with a treaty signed in Rome.
Parts of Europe are strong and often parts are weak. Even the USA and other countries such as Australia and Canada are expansions of the people of Europe. All is divided though through treaties they stay united. Regardless whether you call this divided empire as Rome it all formed from out of Romes collapse and has ever since centered greatly around Rome (especially through Catholicism).

State one place in the Bible where it gives any mention of the importance or the line of countries such as the UK and the USA other than a part of a divided kingdom stemmed from what was the Roman Empire.
The only people possibly mentioned in Russia who are mentioned as "Gog". Interestingly Russia was never really a part of the Roman Empire.

 

[BibleScribe]

...

My scenario of events comes as a result of 35 years of reading and deciphering the prophecies, independent of any outside, extra biblical material.....that is....The words of scripture ALONE. I have read many scholarly works, etc., but a have relied almost exclusively on scripture, AND NEARLY NOTHING IN DOGMA. Trust you me, I have considered many other theories...including your's....and come back to the same conclusion. I was called to do this, and I have answered that calling.

I certainly understand that some of the world's most intelligent men have failed to properly interpret prophecies because they did not live during the time of the end, and therefore were unable to unseal the books. But being this IS the time of the end, if you were as expert as you portend then you'd be able to resolve the prophecies of Daniel, and thereby resolve the prophecies in Revelation, -- as Walvoord correctly discerned by the title of his book "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation".


Unfortunately, as of this writing, I don't believe you have complied with the simple of concept found in Daniel 2:45.

BibleScribe

How does Daniel 2:45 change anything? How does it stop the beast with ten horns being Rome?
You try to rely on this verse to disprove Rome yet it makes no difference. Yet you still deny the entire chapter of Rev 12.

If in Daniel 2
Gold = Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar kingdom as stated by Daniel)
Silver = Medes / Persia (obviously the next kingdom after Babylon)
Bronze = Greece (obviously the second kingdom after Babylon)
Iron = Rome (Obviously the fourth kingdom after Rome)
then Iron & clay is obviously the Iron = Rome mixed with clay.

...

Once again you miss the significance of having FOUR unique World Empires, and a FIFTH distinct World Empire. These are not the 4a/4b which you ascribe, but rather FIVE for which the FIFTH is "divided". As such please find the FIFTH "divided" three-superpower era.


BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

But being this IS the time of the end, if you were as expert as you portend then you'd be able to resolve the prophecies of Daniel, and thereby resolve the prophecies in Revelation, -- as Walvoord correctly discerned by the title of his book "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation".

BibleScribe

I am not claiming to be an expert at anything, nor did I ever say that. I demand an apology again, BS!

After 35 years, I'm still learning new things. I freely admit that. No one can be an "expert" on this subject, and I'll bet even John wasn't absolutely sure of what he was recording at times. And we both know Daniel didn't understand everything he recorded, don't we?

I don't claim to know Daniel with the degree of focused study that I do with The Revelation. But I do know there's a helluva lot of cross-reference between the two books.....almost as if The Rev is confirming the prophecies of Daniel. But, there's a helluva lot of info given in The Rev that has no counterpart in Daniel. My point is: there are certainly some revelations I have not been able to definitively interpret. Daniel's four beast vision is one of those, or at least, who is the leopard. The ram & goat vision I have cracked, and you'd be surprised what it is. I also find Neb's dream prophetically interesting in Dan, chp 4 about the tree and the bands of iron and brass. But, I will tell you I am completely turned-off by Chapter 11. It is an enigma to me.

BTW, BS, don't you consider the change in order of the list of materials in Dan 5:4 and 5:23 an important sequence with intelligent design and significance as well. Seems Daniel has recorded a couple listings out of ordered sequence. Alls I can tell ya, BS, is "the handwriting is on the wall" concerning your belief that there's a significance to the order of Dan 2:45!

 

[BibleScribe]

I am not claiming to be an expert at anything, nor did I ever say that. I demand an apology again, BS!

After 35 years, I'm still learning new things. I freely admit that. No one can be an "expert" on this subject, and I'll bet even John wasn't absolutely sure of what he was recording at times. And we both know Daniel didn't understand everything he recorded, don't we?

I don't claim to know Daniel with the degree of focused study that I do with The Revelation. But I do know there's a helluva lot of cross-reference between the two books.....almost as if The Rev is confirming the prophecies of Daniel. But, there's a helluva lot of info given in The Rev that has no counterpart in Daniel. My point is: there are certainly some revelations I have not been able to definitively interpret. Daniel's four beast vision is one of those, or at least, who is the leopard. The ram & goat vision I have cracked, and you'd be surprised what it is. I also find Neb's dream prophetically interesting in Dan, chp 4 about the tree and the bands of iron and brass. But, I will tell you I am completely turned-off by Chapter 11. It is an enigma to me.

BTW, BS, don't you consider the change in order of the list of materials in Dan 5:4 and 5:23 an important sequence with intelligent design and significance as well. Seems Daniel has recorded a couple listings out of ordered sequence.

1. To possibly help this discussion, the Leopard is not a Leopard, -- it's a Tiger. And ~everyone~ knows that the Tiger is the Far East.

2. I would also suggest that the Ram, Hegoat, and Greece are not what the commentators ascribe. -- I would be open to your opinion, but please be aware that the correct interpretation conforms to the chronology of "toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land".

3. The Daniel 5 citations are NOT a sequence of World Empires, -- they're simply elements which some cultures worshiped. So you can either choose to obey, explain, or disregard 2:45, but I would maintain that the sequence is PERFECT Intelligent Design.


BibleScribe

 

[Tsigano]

Once again you miss the significance of having FOUR unique World Empires, and a FIFTH distinct World Empire. These are not the 4a/4b which you ascribe, but rather FIVE for which the FIFTH is "divided". As such please find the FIFTH "divided" three-superpower era.


BibleScribe

I see you pride yourself as thinking yourself of a superior intellect but I was always taught self praise is worth nothing. Sorry.

Reading your conclusions does not give me the slightest sense that you are of a correct intellect and that you are correct to think everyone else is but blind or backwards.

Sure we can see a united Europe / America emerged. It emerged from the nations of Europe. The United States of America is basically an extension of territories for Europeans. They took the land from the natives, populated the continent with their own and they pull all the purse strings.

How you can dismiss all the facts.

Daniel 2 makes very clear that Babylon is the first beast. Count four from Babylon and we get Rome. The fifth beast you are so insistently using as a means to support all your ideas is also Rome only mixed with "clay". The clay represent a weaker side to the empire and it also represents a divided empire. It is also an addition to the iron on its own which could conclude additional people / nations being included (please don't use this line as an excuse to repeat yourself).

Daniel 7 we have four empires lion, bear, leopard then terrifying and frightening beast. Would make an obvious choice to be inline with other visions of Daniel as God always confirms things. Lion = Babylon, Bear = Persia, Leopards = Greece, T & F beast = Rome.

Daniel 8 we again get the empires ruler after Babylon. This is explained. First we have the Ram who we know is the Medes and Persians (two horns = Medes & Persians), Then we have Greece (one horn = Alexander the Great, four horns = generals who split Greek empire. Then hey presto. guess what we had Rome.

The significance in all these visions is "JESUS". It is beasts leading up to the coming of Christ. That is why we don't see a beast with two horns like a lamb mentioned. That is the other beast who is present at the end of time. The ten horned beast (Rome / or empire spawned out of Rome = European super nations?) then we have the beast of the land.

Revelations 12 again confirms this. Rome is still here with us. The city is not gone. It sits as a very influential in a United Europe.

We also have the city which sits on the beast with ten horns and the whore / prostitute. Previous mentions in the Bible of a women prostituting herself is a representation of God's people mixing themselves the defiled ways of the Earth. Doing the things that displease God. Often they see no wrong in what they do. I'm guessing the women / prostitute / whore is something to do with God's people.

3. The Daniel 5 citations are NOT a sequence of World Empires, -- they're simply elements which some cultures worshiped. So you can either choose to obey, explain, or disregard 2:45, but I would maintain that the sequence is PERFECT Intelligent Design.

BibleScribe

Do you not just think you are trying too hard here? "simply elements which some cultures worship". If you are so correct then how come you have this enlightenment solely on your own? You are the only one I have met who believes this.

I'm sure many see this as God's representative on Earth. I must confess I do not. I see just a man and man is not without sin and is prey to temptation. One day we could see a much mightier figure in a similar role fulfilling many prophesies and amazing the world with his miracles. He could even bring a peace to the Middle east and the Islamic world

Pope kisses Koran

 

[BibleScribe]

...
Daniel 2 makes very clear that Babylon is the first beast. Count four from Babylon and we get Rome. The fifth beast you are so insistently using as a means to support all your ideas ...

Pardon me for interrupting your rant, but I believe it was GOD who separated the Clay from the Iron:

Daniel 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ..., I.e., 4,3,5,2,1, = FIVE


As such, please direct your ill advised criticism to GOD.



BibleScribe

 

[aspen]

Ah....my beloved Pope!

 

[[email protected]]

It's pretty difficult to grasp an end-time empire that is not mentioned in end-time prophecy! Agnosticism has nothing to do with the end or the empire of the beast.

Quite the contrary, it has quite a bit to do with it.

Agnosticism and its heathen cousin atheism form a devilish coalition to undermine societal morality. While it isn't possible to remove all morality from society, what this demonic duo actually do is to lay the foundation for anti-Christian and anti-semitic bigotry (or the modern variation anti-Zionism - same thing BTW).

"I want to raise a generation without a conscience, relentless and cruel."
- Adolph Hitler

Hitler nearly succeeded. Before he began his programs of murder and destruction, Hitler first tore down the established morality of the day. It just so happened that the basis for that morality was Christian.
When morality was sufficiently eroded the death camps opened.

Humans are hard wired to worship something higher than themselves. Remove the natural and proper worship of God and a society will substitute nationalism as it's greater idol. It will fashion its god in its own image.

Nationalistic idol worship has already seized America. American hedonism along with agnosticism and atheism are in full bloom. Our militaristic pseudo-patriotism now borders on fetishism. Worship of everything military is now the norm and no one questions America's right to invade and occupy any country we wish (now 150, if Pentagon figures are to be believed).

The spirit cannot long endure a vacuum, even a nationalistic one. Into the mix of rampant atheism and agnosticism has entered Islam; militant, aggressive and resourceful. No power on earth can stop it.

Does agnosticism have anything to do with the coming anti-Christ, militarism in America or aggressive Islam?

You can't make these things go away by simply denying God exists or is unknowable. The only way to do that is to fall to our knees and beg Him for mercy (though we don't deserve it).

 

[Tsigano]

Pardon me for interrupting your rant, but I believe it was GOD who separated the Clay from the Iron:

Daniel 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ..., I.e., 4,3,5,2,1, = FIVE


As such, please direct your ill advised criticism to GOD.



BibleScribe

where?

[sup]40[/sup] Then there will be a [sup](BE)[/sup]fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. [sup]41[/sup] In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with [sup][as][/sup]common clay. [sup]42[/sup] As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle. [sup]43[/sup] And in that you saw the iron mixed with [sup][at][/sup]common clay, they will combine with one another [sup][au][/sup]in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.
[font="'Charis SIL"]
[/font]
Its not about trying to twist he verses to suit our own theories. It is about finding the truth.

What about all three prophesies of Daniel being the beasts from Daniel until Christ? Does this not make more sense? Why would the vision be Babylon -> Persia -> Greece then skip Rome and appear in the very last days? Why would it be Babylon as in the interpretation of the dream for Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel actually says it will be the empires that follow. Obviously ending on the empire that was there at the time of the promised time of Jesus and the establishment of the Church and the saving grace given to all mankind.

What about Revelations 12? This is definitively the same beast with ten horns and it blatantly says the beast was there at the time of Christ.
What about the verse that says about the destruction of the temple of God and the Jews being sent into the nations of the world?

Yet you rely on one verse and then try to bring in a whole load of nations that have absolutely no other mention within the BIble. Did not the European nations grow out the fall of Rome yet even though all European nations had their own kings and rulers, the pope's blessing was influential and had authority on all. Some rebelled and broke away yet the opinion of Rome was always a key factor throughout history.

Even with Hitler and the Germans in WWII there was the third Reich. Mussolini set up the Vatican City. This is again all reference to Rome.

You are correct about the fifth empire. You just miss the fact that Iron was present within the mix. You also look at the last few hundred years yet miss the history of Europe prior to this and the importance of Rome. Look at the way the crusades were started. This was not one European country but a unity of many. Many that were also greatly divided.
Rome was still the city that was chosen at the treaty that established the EU. I'm sure more is to come and things will become more apparent. As a Christian we shouldn't be amazed as we have been warned of such things.

 

[BibleScribe]

...
Its not about trying to twist he verses to suit our own theories. It is about finding the truth.
...

Assailing a messanger is not "about finding the truth". However, explaining the significance of the Daniel 2:45 sequence IS "about finding the truth".

Please find the truth.


BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

1. To possibly help this discussion, the Leopard is not a Leopard, -- it's a Tiger. And ~everyone~ knows that the Tiger is the Far East.

I assume you are relying on Strong's for definition on this one?

2. I would also suggest that the Ram, Hegoat, and Greece are not what the commentators ascribe. -- I would be open to your opinion, but please be aware that the correct interpretation conforms to the chronology of "toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land".

The ram is the European forces of Nazi Germany and Italy, with the horns being Hitler and Mussolini ( Mussolini was dictator first, but was less important than Hitler, fulfilling Dan 8:3 ). Dan 8:4 shows the extent of Nazi Germany's expansion over the land mass of Europe and Africa ( land mass of the old Roman Empire BTW ). The goat represents the allied forces including Canada, the US & England, fulfilling verse Dan 8:5, as the forces where transported to Europe from America via ships and aircraft. The notable horn was Roosevelt. Roosevelt died before the end of WWII, thereby fulfilling the first part of Dan 8:8. The 2nd part of Dan 8:8 denotes the four ET superpowers that emerged from that war. The lone surviving superpower after the Gog invasion, will be the EU, which satisfies your requirement for the little horn extending his influence from the EU towards the south ( Africa ), towards the east ( eastern Europe ), and towards the Pleasant land ( obvious ). Then the time AC is in power is explained in Dan 8:13 of 6.33 years. Furthermore, twice the angel mentions to Daniel that this vision concerned the time of the end ( Dan 8:17 & Dan 8:19 )

There is no mistaking that relatively shortly after, and as a direct result of, WWII, the Jews were returned to Palestine. Therefore, it seems to me that God found the profound nature of WWII worthy to be included in Daniel's visions, whereby the four superpowers emerged in its aftermath. There is NO WAY Alexander could "come from the west ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH and not touch the ground". This fulfillment HAD TO HAVE come in a modern day scenario, where ships and aircraft could fulfill that statement.

3. The Daniel 5 citations are NOT a sequence of World Empires, -- they're simply elements which some cultures worshiped. So you can either choose to obey, explain, or disregard 2:45, but I would maintain that the sequence is PERFECT Intelligent Design.

As in Dan 2:45, these sequence listings are inconsequential.

 

[BibleScribe]

Hi Popeye,

I assume you are relying on Strong's for definition on this one?

Ummmm, no, -- history provides this premise.

At the time of Daniel's writings, circular marked cats were imported from Africa, but vertically marked cats were not yet imported from the Far East. Thus the only point of reference for the Tiger which Daniel saw, was the Leopard which he knew. Therefore he called the Tiger the nearest name available, -- the Leopard. However, he also recognized the Tiger attributes of the Four Head, (representing the FOUR Branches of Government), and the Four Wings, (representing the "Four Modernizations", -- per Chou En-Lai).

The ram is the European forces of Nazi Germany and Italy, with the horns being Hitler and Mussolini ( Mussolini was dictator first, but was less important than Hitler, fulfilling Dan 8:3 ). Dan 8:4 shows the extent of Nazi Germany's expansion over the land mass of Europe and Africa ( land mass of the old Roman Empire BTW ). The goat represents the allied forces including Canada, the US & England, fulfilling verse Dan 8:5, as the forces where transported to Europe from America via ships and aircraft. The notable horn was Roosevelt. Roosevelt died before the end of WWII, thereby fulfilling the first part of Dan 8:8. The 2nd part of Dan 8:8 denotes the four ET superpowers that emerged from that war. The lone surviving superpower after the Gog invasion, will be the EU, which satisfies your requirement for the little horn extending his influence from the EU towards the south ( Africa ), towards the east ( eastern Europe ), and towards the Pleasant land ( obvious ). Then the time AC is in power is explained in Dan 8:13 of 6.33 years. Furthermore, twice the angel mentions to Daniel that this vision concerned the time of the end ( Dan 8:17 & Dan 8:19 )

There is no mistaking that relatively shortly after, and as a direct result of, WWII, the Jews were returned to Palestine. Therefore, it seems to me that God found the profound nature of WWII worthy to be included in Daniel's visions, whereby the four superpowers emerged in its aftermath. There is NO WAY Alexander could "come from the west ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH and not touch the ground". This fulfillment HAD TO HAVE come in a modern day scenario, where ships and aircraft could fulfill that statement.

I would propose that where most prophecies are not revealed to an individual, suppositions are made. And where the sequence of the "south", "east", and "glorious land" are specified, your supposition has no tangible. But the TRUTH is, this FULL assignment of nations and events have been available since the founding of the nation of Israel, -- with the exception of the "glorious land", which is a still future event.

So the nest question should be, -- are you interested in what is really depicted? -- (Hint, Daniel 7:7 suggest there are ten horns. Daniel 7:8 suggests that there is an additional "little horn". Daniel 7: 20 suggests that the ten and the eleventh are ALL "fellows", and thus are ALL little horns. Thus the Daniel 8:9 "little horn" can be any of the the eleven, but is fulfilled as one of the three which shall be subdued by the eleventh.)

As in Dan 2:45, these sequence listings are inconsequential.

Scripture is NEVER "inconsequential". Only those opinions to that view.

And just so you know, the Daniel 5:4 and Daniel 5:23 gods are false. Therefore there is no god hierarchy, or ranking, or preference, or significance. They're all false, and have no such privileges. However, the Daniel 2:45 World Empire are presented in proper ranking and significance. As such you would do well to heed this information.



BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

Hi Popeye,



Ummmm, no, -- history provides this premise.

At the time of Daniel's writings, circular marked cats were imported from Africa, but vertically marked cats were not yet imported from the Far East. Thus the only point of reference for the Tiger which Daniel saw, was the Leopard which he knew. Therefore he called the Tiger the nearest name available, -- the Leopard. However, he also recognized the Tiger attributes of the Four Head, (representing the FOUR Branches of Government), and the Four Wings, (representing the "Four Modernizations", -- per Chou En-Lai).

I would suggest that supposition rules your interpretation of the 4 heads & wings....every bit as much as my interpretation is supposition.. <_<

I would propose that where most prophecies are not revealed to an individual, suppositions are made. And where the sequence of the "south", "east", and "glorious land" are specified, your supposition has no tangible. But the TRUTH is, this FULL assignment of nations and events have been available since the founding of the nation of Israel, -- with the exception of the "glorious land", which is a still future event.

The "glorious land", or the "pleasant land" has been in existence since time incarnate. And being the EU is bordered by expansive oceans on it's western front, movement of occupying armies can only go east, south, or southeast towards the "pleasant land".

So the nest question should be, -- are you interested in what is really depicted? -- (Hint, Daniel 7:7 suggest there are ten horns. Daniel 7:8 suggests that there is an additional "little horn". Daniel 7: 20 suggests that the ten and the eleventh are ALL "fellows", and thus are ALL little horns. Thus the Daniel 8:9 "little horn" can be any of the the eleven, but is fulfilled as one of the three which shall be subdued by the eleventh.)

I fail to see where you get 11 nations from 3 horns PLUCKED UP BY THE ROOTS and replaced by 1 horn. That count shows me 8 horns, not eleven. There are 10 toes on a foot, and ten horns and crowns on the beast. And there are 8 kings ( "5 have fallen, one is, and the other must continue a short space..... Even he is of the seven but is also the eighth." )

And just so you know, the Daniel 5:4 and Daniel 5:23 gods are false. Therefore there is no god hierarchy, or ranking, or preference, or significance. They're all false, and have no such privileges. However, the Daniel 2:45 World Empire are presented in proper ranking and significance. As such you would do well to heed this information.

I thought all scripture was recorded by "intelligent design". Now you're telling me that's not so.....:blink:

 

[Tsigano]

This thread is getting hilarious

The Angel blatantly says the empires were Persia then Greece. then a following empire who is mightier and fiercer. Now they are modern empires.

Why would the vision miss the major empires then jump to countries that invade and hold other countries for a matter of a few years?

Does no actually read the verses without the need to try and change them into some elaborate meaning for modern empires of today.

Rome owned most of Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. Its trade ships went to the furthest parts of the world. It owned the majority of the world. It owned all this for hundreds of years. Rome still exists today as an icon of influence. It has resurfaced as the Holy Roman Empire of Germany which was tried to be re-instated by Hitler.
The only empire to accomplish anything like this is Islam. Britain and France have fought for control of parts of Europe and the know world as have Spain and Germany. Russia went east into Asia. China have a large country with a large population. India has many people. None have been as dominant as Rome and Islam.

How in world does Dan 2:45 make a difference?

You completely dismiss Rev 12. You completely dismiss that the beast of Daniel are all reference to the empires from Daniel until Christ?

Why isn't the beast with two horns that looks like a lamb mentioned in Daniel? It is because this beast came after Christ.

At the end of time there are only two beast mentioned. The same beast with ten horns (obviously still influential after Christ up til the end days)

 

[popeye]

Hi Popeye,

Ummmm, no, -- history provides this premise.

At the time of Daniel's writings, circular marked cats were imported from Africa, but vertically marked cats were not yet imported from the Far East. Thus the only point of reference for the Tiger which Daniel saw, was the Leopard which he knew. Therefore he called the Tiger the nearest name available, -- the Leopard. However, he also recognized the Tiger attributes of the Four Head, (representing the FOUR Branches of Government), and the Four Wings, (representing the "Four Modernizations", -- per Chou En-Lai).

BibleScribe

I wanted to add:

To be clear, you seem to be indicating you know that Daniel actually saw a tiger, but recorded a leopard. How do you know that?

To be clear again, you must be saying that John, too, also saw a tiger but recorded a leopard instead. I'm sure by 96 AD, John knew what a tiger was.:blink:

 

[BibleScribe]

I wanted to add:

To be clear, you seem to be indicating you know that Daniel actually saw a tiger, but recorded a leopard. How do you know that?

To be clear again, you must be saying that John, too, also saw a tiger but recorded a leopard instead. I'm sure by 96 AD, John knew what a tiger was.:blink:

I'm not sure what part of history you may have studied, but the trade routes to the Far East were not opened until ~200 B.C. Did you think that Tigers were being imported in ~500 B.C.?

As far as John is concerned, do you think he would divert from the precedent which his prophecies are based upon?



And finally, do you think that GOD is unable to convey HIS Divine Purpose to HIS creation? -- Maybe things are so simple that all we have to do is perceive the Daniel 2:45 FIVE World Empires (for which the FIFTH is "divided", and the Daniel 7 four beasts which represent the three-superpowers and the fourth one-world-government. And having this knowledge, that Revelation 13 should confirm these as concurrent superpowers which have an association for the Lion as the Head; the Leopard as the Body; and the Bear as the Feet.


And then again, I've already asked why each of the beasts are depicted as the specific body regions, -- but you have thus far been unable to provide that more than simple assessment. Maybe any such significance is ~inconsequential~.


BibleScribe


BibleScribe