Rome's 7 0F 10 Hills

[BibleScribe]

Rev 13:2....but nothing I can produce through Google shows any more than 5 permanent members, as of 2011.
And let us not forget the terrible fourth beast had teeth of IRON, and nails of BRASS. And the 10 horns emanated from ONE HEAD ONLY, and the little horn subdues 3 of the 10 horns.

Hey Popeye,

1. If we were in the Tribulation, these 10 nations would be FULFILLED. However, because we're NOT in the Tribulation, these nations are only NOMINATED. So did your "GOOGLE" research reveal the NOMINATED nations, and if not, does that mean the U.N. didn't perform the vote as document in the U.N. Chronicle dated December 1993?

2. You are incorrect regarding the "little horn" and the others.


Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

What you missed is that they're ALL "little horns" (i.e., "fellows"). Thus we have the three little horns, plus the additional seven, and the eleventh. And of course the FIFTH "divided" empire 3-superpowers (Lion/Bear/Leopard) shall give their authority to this "dreadful" beast, and he will make war with the saints.




So if I might ask:

a. Re: Rev. 13:2, -- If you assume that the Lion, Leopard, and Bear are interchangeable with respect to the Head, Body, & Feet, then is a defense of GOD's Intelligent Design even allowed?

b. Re: Daniel 2:45, -- Do you suppose man's sequence of 1,3,5,2,4, is not intelligent design? And if man is given credence to the sequence of a 5-cylinder engine firing order, shouldn't GOD be given even greater deference as to HIS Intelligent Design?



BibleScribe

 

[Tsigano]

[sup]20[/sup] and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and [sup][t][/sup]which was larger in appearance than its associates. [sup]21[/sup] I kept looking, and that horn was [sup](AJ)[/sup]waging war with the [sup][u][/sup]saints and overpowering them

[sup]23[/sup] “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. [sup]24[/sup] As for the [sup](AL)[/sup]ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.


Beast = 4th kingdom (from Daniel we had Babylon, Persian, Greek & then Roman Empire)


horns = kings (10-3=7. 7 kings followed by three which will be subdued by another)


Rome had 7 kings.
then republic = no kingly rule but rule done by senate of hundreds on behalf of the people
Republic officially come to end with a joint rule of three (maybe we can just call this coincidental)
Octavian brings three rule to end and gives rule back to senate.
Senate make Octavian (renamed as Augustus) as Romes first Emperor.
It was the Emperors of Rome who persecuted the early church as the disciples tried to spread the gospel of Christ.


[font="'Charis SIL"]Therefore during the whole of Romes existence there was only ten kings (the actual Hebrew word means king / ruler). Seven as a kingdom then three which was replaced by one. This one did not rule as rule was done by senate but was still given ultimate power and status. The senate even gave the Emperor a god like status and citizens were told to worship the Emperor (Like Nebuchadnezzar did with his statue).[/font]
[font="'Charis SIL"]
[/font]

 

[BibleScribe]

Hi Tsigano,

[sup]...[/sup]
[sup]23[/sup] “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. [sup]24[/sup] As for the [sup](AL)[/sup]ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.


Beast = 4th kingdom (from Daniel we had Babylon, Persian, Greek & then Roman Empire)

I think you miss the significance of this ~fourth~ kingdom. -- The Roman Empire brought a new form of governance under the Representative Republic model. And because the Roman Empire dissolved, instead of being conquered, the disparate kingdoms and fifedoms retained the only model available, -- the Representative Republic . Thus Scripture properly reflects that empire attribute, even as a FIFTH empire came into being UNDER THAT MODEL. Thus where you see only one facet of Scripture and History, these offer a SECOND facet:


Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Daniel 2:45 ... the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... (I.e., 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE)


So per your point, -- of course the Feet of Clay DO have the presence of the Iron as evidenced by the Roman Republic model, but this FIFTH empire of Clay is independent, and is indeed "divided" between the three-superpowers consisting of the U.K./U.S., Russia, and China, -- a fact evidenced by History.


But to confirm the prophecies, one can evaluate the obviously false commentator assignment of the Daniel 7 Bear as the Medo/Persian Empire which NEVER had three-ribs; NEVER dropped the three-ribs; and never subsequently arose to devour much flesh. However, if one considered the History of Russia, one can readily identify the three-ribs, the dropping of the three-ribs, and the pending attack against the Middle East. Unfortunately many are content with tangents having NO reality, eventhoug GOD demands that we use the intelligence HE has provided by simple intellect and simple Scripture. But imaginations are more fun that reality.

horns = kings (10-3=7. 7 kings followed by three which will be subdued by another)

The beast had seven heads and ten horns. If the 10 horns were minus three, then there would be seven horns. -- Or at least that's the math my second grade teacher insisted upon.

Rome had 7 kings.
...
Therefore during the whole of Romes existence there was only ten kings (the actual Hebrew word means king / ruler). ...

I think history would disagree with your assertion.


BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

I guess I need to introduce myself to you, Vet.

First off, I answer NO to every question you asked. I might add, you left-off a number of secret underground organizations, including the Trilateral Commission, among many others. And it is clear you are a conspiracy theorist, who is trying to force-fit every single event that has been transpiring currently into either a conspiracy or a prophecy fulfillment. THIS is very dangerous, I might add. Whiling-away your time looking for fulfillments of prophecy taken from inconsequential current events detracts you from finding correct interpretations in any of the prophecies. If you know the prophecies well, then you know what shall transpire down-the-road, regardless of what is now taking place. We are in the "season" of Christ's return, but until the AOD is committed, His return IS NOT IMMINENT!

I am a die hard conservative, who was a member of B company, 2nd BN, 505 PIR, 82 Airborne Division with an MOS of 11B1P many years ago. So, I've served my time for the country, and owe nothing to it. I am currently reviewing the gaggle of Republican candidates for President, waiting patiently to see if Texas Governor, Rick Perry is going to enter the race. If not, I certainly won't vote for a Mormon, or a man who's had 20 wives. And Sara Palin has compromised any consideration from me while she rakes-in the $ for her ridiculous pursuits...whatever they may be. None the same, they are all corrupted in my opinion, so I will vote for the less-corrupted nominee. Best I can do as a common man.

So, love of this country....er....love of what this country USE TO BE, is not my problem. I stand confirmed in my love for this country. However, The Truth be known: this country, currently, is a country "living carelessly for God". Whether we like it or not, that is The Truth. So, you need to get use to the idea that this country IS NOT what it use to be. And according to prophecy, she will NOT EVER RETURN to her former glory. PERIOD! Nonetheless, we must suffer with her as we move forward, and this is very hard to stomach for many of us.

As to "hating Christian Churches" I can tell you the prophecy reveals to me that this end times church is suffering the "falling-away" Paul alluded to, and many congregations are so consumed with keeping up with their sister churches in providing the latest, and best, sanctuaries, missions, $, overseas exploits for their ministers and laymen, etc., etc, they are catering to no one else but mammon, and again, are making a business of The Truth.

I never said that A L L churches are corrupted, I said MANY churches are corrupted. And I think you would agree with me. And if you interpret what I interpret in Rev 17 & 18, along with much supporting scripture, you will begin to see that the ET church will be exterminated from existence in AC's world. Individuals will carry the load of The Church, because after all, the Church is NOT in a building or organization. The true Church lies in the individuals who commune together in Christ. This is the way it will be in the GT coming, as we all flee The Mark, and the authorites. And when we are captured and imprisoned with many of like minded individuals, we will not care if they are Catholic, Protestant, or secular-called. The fact is, we will be in brotherhood until we are executed for The Lord, and join our heavenly family at The Calling.

We have a difference of interpretation. Not a big deal, VET. Otherwise, we're more alike than you may perceive...

Best in Christ,

Mike

We may be similar in our support of our country and its people of the United States of America, but we are unlike I feel in MANY other ways that you are not aware of, yet. I'm a Constitutional Conservative, if there is such a label, which means I do NOT support ANY 'two-party' politics stupidity. That's a part I don't think you have yet realized, along with the fact that there is a conspiracy to draw all nations into a "one world government" which both Republicans AND Democrats have labeled as their "New World Order". Those terms are not mine; they belong to 'them'.

I have personally met, and known some of the people working for that "one world government" plan. I have known about its existence since the late 1970's. It's not something difficult to prove anymore either. My sources are from them, not from fly-by-night propagandists who put out conspiracy theory junk to draw people away from seeing it, like yourself. Just like today's field of science, there exists pseudo-science, and then true science. Likewise there exist pseudo-conspiracy theories, and then true evidence of a grand conspiracy. For some us, God has shown just who many of the "tares" are and how they work.

Pertaining to my Christian brethren, I don't single out one denomination over another, for that junk is nothing but men trying to play religion. The true followers of Christ Jesus will heed His Word, The Word of God, discerning by The Holy Spirit. Everything else is gonna' get pruned.

And as far as disproving the sources I've given on this forum about the conspiracy towards a "one world government", all you've done is offer you opinion, and the opinion of others.

 

[[email protected]]

Yh. I never thought of it like this... Makes sense and is true facts. Rome was the last great empire. We are a divide front nowadays. Would yet be more 100% fulfilled Bible prophecy.
Going off to read the verse to see wording where the clay & iron represents a 5th.
Thanks.


All in all it is Rome still being a major influence to the powers that be as we are approaching the last days.

I still think the kings mentioned in Rev 13 and on wards are different kings mentioned in Daniel and Revelations 12. They are however a part of the same beast or some type of stem or stems from that beast (Rome).
Daniel was writing primarily to the Jews. Most of the Old Testament message to the Jews was prophecy and teaching concerning the coming of Christ yet many failed to see this and were expecting someone Proud and mighty of an Earthly understanding. John when he wrote Revelations was primarily speaking to the Church.

Let me add another wrinkle.

You all know that I'm pushing the notion that a Muslim alliance will be the seat of A/C's power and the military force which attempts to destroy God's people.

For those who do not know, current Muslim rhetoric defines "ROME" and/or "ROMANS" to be a generic term for nations of the west. Specifically this means western Europe, the united States and Britain. When you hear or read Muslims ranting about Rome or Romans, insert "the west" and do not get derailed by supposing they are talking about an ancient city and seat of Roman Catholic papacy.

Remember too that the Roman Empire was divided into two political entities before the actual city of Rome fell. The Eastern Roman Empire's capital was in Constantinople. Constantinople, not Rome became the first large empire or nation to recognize Christianity as a legitimate religion. History moves along and when Muslims threatened Europe and the Bysantine Empire, which was formerly the eastern Roman Empire the Bysantines begged the pope to send military aid. Germanic armies had thrown the invading Muslims out of Spain, Sardinia and Sicily. From the 11th to the 13th centuries the crusading wars raged against the Mulim threat. The crusades were a Christian answer to Muslim aggression, not the other way round as lying Muslims would have us believe today.

Years later (I'll forgo the historic details) the crusades did not go well. Islamic influence seized the east and by 1299 the Ottomans were running the show. The Ottoman caliphate ended in 1923 with the formation of modern Turkey. In the twenty first century, Muslims work, pray and hope for a restored Caliphate; a restored Imperial Islamic empire. They look for Turkey to renew its imperial status among nations. If that happens all Islamic division will end under the new imam. Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has already stated that he would lead the Iranian branch of Islam, called Shi'a to 'walk behind' (meaning to give allegiance to), the Sunni Imperial caliphate if renewed.

If the caliphate is restored it will be the literal equivalent of the restored Roman Empire in the east. It will be the anti-Christ's answer to God's restoration of Israel in 1948.
It is not a stretch of the imagination to see such a thing happening. If so, it would precisely demonstrate the accuracy of Biblical and Islamic prophecy.

When that happens the stage will be set for the entrance of the anti-Christ and his minions. The final act of history will begin (the tribulation?).

WATCH TURKEY

 

[popeye]

We may be similar in our support of our country and its people of the United States of America, but we are unlike I feel in MANY other ways that you are not aware of, yet. I'm a Constitutional Conservative, if there is such a label, which means I do NOT support ANY 'two-party' politics stupidity. That's a part I don't think you have yet realized, along with the fact that there is a conspiracy to draw all nations into a "one world government" which both Republicans AND Democrats have labeled as their "New World Order". Those terms are not mine; they belong to 'them'.

I have personally met, and known some of the people working for that "one world government" plan. I have known about its existence since the late 1970's. It's not something difficult to prove anymore either. My sources are from them, not from fly-by-night propagandists who put out conspiracy theory junk to draw people away from seeing it, like yourself. Just like today's field of science, there exists pseudo-science, and then true science. Likewise there exist pseudo-conspiracy theories, and then true evidence of a grand conspiracy. For some us, God has shown just who many of the "tares" are and how they work.

Pertaining to my Christian brethren, I don't single out one denomination over another, for that junk is nothing but men trying to play religion. The true followers of Christ Jesus will heed His Word, The Word of God, discerning by The Holy Spirit. Everything else is gonna' get pruned.

And as far as disproving the sources I've given on this forum about the conspiracy towards a "one world government", all you've done is offer you opinion, and the opinion of others.

Sounds like you want it both ways. On the one hand, you want a political system that's suited to your pallet. Maybe a Theocracy would suit you. Guess you'll have to wait until the MK.
In the meantime, however, you'll have to be content to accept that a one-world government system WILL COME TO PASS, regardless of your efforts. And so it would behoove everyone to prepare themselves mentally and spiritually to enter the GT expecting to die for the Lord.

On the other hand, you evidently have no problem with denominations such as The Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormans, Snake Handlers, The Worldwide Church of God, and the endless list of cultist organizations that are lead by Whackos like Jim Jones, Jeffries, The Whacko from Waco, and a whole host of evil cultists leading cultist organizations that call themselves "Christian". Hey, you said it, "I don't single out one denomination over another,".

Look, I have no bone to pick with you, so I'll leave you with godspeed to understanding,

Best in Christ,

Mike

 

[Tsigano]

The beast had seven heads and ten horns. If the 10 horns were minus three, then there would be seven horns. -- Or at least that's the math my second grade teacher insisted upon.

BibleScribe

There was seven kings in a row. All rule was then taken by the people and Rome was a republic (ruled by a senate of hundreds giving votes and opinions).

That was until the Lex Titia marked the end of the republic and the all rule was given over to three individuals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Titia

The Hebrew word for king in Daniel 7:24 is "Melek".
Melek means: a king, a ruler, a prince. Officials of many levels were designated by this title. It was a common term for virtually any magistrate.

Therefore the joint three rule of the Lex Titia passed on November 27, 43 BC would have made those three also under the term "Melek".

Therefore, 7 kings (melek) plus an additional 3 rulers (melek) from 43bc = 10 Meleks

10 meleks = 10 horns.

When the Lex Titia was ended ten years later, rule was given back to the senate making Rome a republic again. Although as a republic it appointed its first Emperor. This was the mark at which Rome as a mighty Empire was born.
Even though the Emperor had ultimate power if he chose, the ruling was still done by the senate.
Britian has a Queen but rule is done by the Houses of Parliament. The difference being the Queen doesn't have the power if she chooses and the Houses of Parliament haven't made it law that we are to worship the Queen as a god.

 

[BibleScribe]

There was seven kings in a row. All rule was then taken by the people and Rome was a republic (ruled by a senate of hundreds giving votes and opinions).
...

I would suggest that you are creating a false history to suit your agenda.

The fact is, the prophecies have NOTHING to do with an empire which is in the dust-bin of history. These are intended as the Angel instructed Daniel in 12:4 & 9, -- for the era as evidenced in the founding of the nation of Israel.



BibleScribe

 

[BibleScribe]

Hey Tsigano,

Before you try to parse the finer points of World History, don't you think it better to start with the simple sequence of Empires? For example to resolve the seven "heads", you might consider that Daniel 2 & Daniel 7 already provided that information per the following:


Daniel 2
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay, "divided"

Daniel 2 & 7
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle -- U.K./U.S. (please note that Daniel 11:5 depicts this association)
-- 6. Bear with 3-ribs -- Russia and the three (and ONLY three) international violations since WWII
-- 7. Leopard with 4-heads/4-wings -- China, with the FOUR branches of government / "FOUR Modernizations"
-- 8. "dreadful" -- which "was and is not", because it has NO populous, NO geography, NO army, etc.



If one declines to evaluate the false ~ancient fulfillment~ accounts (which is CLEARLY UNSCRIPTURAL per Daniel 12:4 & Daniel 12:9) , then is TRUTH the objective, or is defending false doctrines the objective?


BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

Hey Popeye,

1. If we were in the Tribulation, these 10 nations would be FULFILLED. However, because we're NOT in the Tribulation, these nations are only NOMINATED. So did your "GOOGLE" research reveal the NOMINATED nations, and if not, does that mean the U.N. didn't perform the vote as document in the U.N. Chronicle dated December 1993?

2. You are incorrect regarding the "little horn" and the others.


Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

What you missed is that they're ALL "little horns" (i.e., "fellows"). Thus we have the three little horns, plus the additional seven, and the eleventh. And of course the FIFTH "divided" empire 3-superpowers (Lion/Bear/Leopard) shall give their authority to this "dreadful" beast, and he will make war with the saints.




So if I might ask:

a. Re: Rev. 13:2, -- If you assume that the Lion, Leopard, and Bear are interchangeable with respect to the Head, Body, & Feet, then is a defense of GOD's Intelligent Design even allowed?

b. Re: Daniel 2:45, -- Do you suppose man's sequence of 1,3,5,2,4, is not intelligent design? And if man is given credence to the sequence of a 5-cylinder engine firing order, shouldn't GOD be given even greater deference as to HIS Intelligent Design?



BibleScribe

I don't assume the lion, leopard and bear are interchangeable. Where did you get that idea? They aren't interchangeable.

I think Daniel's listing of the kingdoms in Dan 2:45 was merely an arbitrary listing, as he rehashes the dream.

When it comes to the horns, heads, crowns, etc of the end times beast, all references to it are applicable to the correct interpretation of the beast. This includes Daniel's vision of the ram and goat as well, because the goat spawns a little horn too.

The symbolic descriptions of the end time beast is the most fascinating riddle in all the prophecies. And frankly, its going to take a smart cookie - inspired by the Holy Spirit - to unravel the mystery.

Personally, I think the heads of the beast represent 7 high-ranking fallen spirits who have possessed leaders in the past. Either that, or they represent the seven continents. Mind you, the western Hemisphere nations ( Canada, USA and South American countries - all christian nations ) were colonized by France, England and Spain. And I believe the fallen spirit who possessed Nero Caesar ( who was killed with a head wound incidentally ), will again possess the AC.....making him "one of the seven, who is also the eighth".

According to the info I got on the Security Counsel, there was no vote in '93 for those nominee countries. They were brought in a different times / dates for one reason or another.

 

[popeye]

to resolve the seven "heads", you might consider that Daniel 2 & Daniel 7 already provided that information per the following:

Daniel 2
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman

BibleScribe

The seven heads of the beast existed well before the kingdoms listed above reigned.
They existed at the fall of Satan, as Rev 12:3 & 4 so indicate. Indeed, the dragon was seen by John IN HEAVEN ( not on earth ).
And his tail drew a 1/3 of the angelic realm to fall from grace with him. So, the seven heads existed well before
the Roman Empire, which is being infured here in Rev 12:3 & 4 at the time of the birth of Christ.

4 kingdoms do not equal 7 heads.

 

[BibleScribe]

...
But to validate both Scripture and History, -- can you explain exactly WHY the Lion/Eagle is the "head"; the Leopard is the "body"; and the Bear is the "feet"? -- Or is Scripture so inconcise that the assignment of each beast to the physical attribute was happenstance? -- (I.e., could the Lion/Eagle have been the "body"; the Leopard the "feet"; and the Bear the "head"?)

...
And let us not forget the terrible fourth beast had teeth of IRON, and nails of BRASS. ...

...
So if I might ask:
a. Re: Rev. 13:2, -- If you assume that the Lion, Leopard, and Bear are interchangeable with respect to the Head, Body, & Feet, then is a defense of GOD's Intelligent Design even allowed?

I don't assume the lion, leopard and bear are interchangeable. Where did you get that idea? They aren't interchangeable.

I merely asked you to explain the significance of the beast/body assignments, which you apparently declined tot provide. Do you now wish to make that information available?

The seven heads of the beast existed well before the kingdoms listed above reigned.

The plan for Salvation clearly existed from the Garden of Eden, and I would argue prior that era. Dos this suggest that Jesus had to appear at that time also?

4 kingdoms do not equal 7 heads.

You should be a little embarrassed by misrepresenting the sequence as provided by both Scripture:

1. Gold
2. Silver
3. Bronze
4. Iron
--. Clay "divided", as least into TWO, and possibly MORE, as provided by additional information


... and by the TRUTH of History:

Daniel 2 & 7
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle -- U.K./U.S. (please note that Daniel 11:5 depicts this association)
-- 6. Bear with 3-ribs -- Russia and the three (and ONLY three) international violations since WWII
-- 7. Leopard with 4-heads/4-wings -- China, with the FOUR branches of government / "FOUR Modernizations"
-- 8. "dreadful" -- which "was and is not", because it has NO populous, NO geography, NO army, etc.


Of course it is important to note that there ARE Seven World Empires in History (--Four of which are consecutive, and Three of which are concurrent--), and there's an eighth which is a usurper ("was, and is not").


BibleScribe

 

[BibleScribe]

To All,

Please be aware that Scripture is Perfect. So when I observe that Daniel 2:45 provides a sequence which is by Intelligent Design, some tell me to ignore it. When I observe that Revelation 13:2 assigns the Lion/Leopard/Bear to the respective Head/Body/Feet, some side-step that Intelligent Design. So who is man who is profitable with Scripture, versus the man who buries it? And please remember that man's reward. -- Ref. Matt. 25.15


Pursue GOD both in Spirit and in Scripture.

BibleScribe

 

[revturmoil]

To All,

Please be aware that Scripture is Perfect. So when I observe that Daniel 2:45 provides a sequence which is by Intelligent Design, some tell me to ignore it. When I observe that Revelation 13:2 assigns the Lion/Leopard/Bear to the respective Head/Body/Feet, some side-step that Intelligent Design. So who is man who is profitable with Scripture, versus the man who buries it? And please remember that man's reward. -- Ref. Matt. 25.15


Pursue GOD both in Spirit and in Scripture.
BibleScribe

But neither of our interpretations are perfect. And I don't want to hear from you that I need to edit the scriptures to fit my interpretations, or notify the historians to change the hstorical record, or how they lie...just because I disagree with your interpretation.

The following is my opinion why BS and Popeye have incorrect interpretations of Daniel 2 and 7. Daniel chapter 7 was written in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon.

Daniel 7:1 ¶In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.

So the book of Daniel was written toward the end of the Babylonian Empire. Chapter 7 was written about 35 years after the vision of the statue in chapter 2 when "the stone that was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold;" The stone destroys all the empires of the statue and all of them are Mid-East Empires.

Chapter 7 depicts four beast at the end of which Daniel has the vision of the ancient of days (like the stone cut out of a mountain) who also sends one who establishes an everlasting dominion on earth. Since these two chapters seem to follow the same pattern, most interpreters seem to think chapter 7 depicts the same divisions of history as those in Daniel 2. So people think that the first three beast of chapter 7 are a historical interpretation and the fourth beast is a future beast. Chapter 7 isn't a historical repeat of chapter 2. Why would Daniel find it necessary to repeat the sequence of world history of Daniel 2 in Daniel 7? The four beast of Daniel 7 are all end time beast. You must understand the word "before' to see this. But first...

Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

The great sea always refers to the Mediterranen sea. Daniel sees the four winds stir up the locale centered around the Mediterranean. These four beast came up out of the sea different from one another. These four beast differ from the vision of the statue in chapter 2 where those kingdoms are parts of a man, and here they are four separate and distinct beast. The first beast of Daniel 7 is like a lion. According to the historical view this is the nation of Babylon and the same as the head of gold in chapter 2. BUT!

How can this be Babylon when the date of the vision occured in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon? The Babylonian Empire was on it's way out when Daniel 7 was written! Why would Daniel prophesy about a kingdom that had already been already existence for decades and soon to end? The language of the chapter also indicates that this isn't a repetition of chapter 2. Chapter 2 to 7 is written in a different language than the rest of the book. Chapter 2-7 is written in Aramaic and the rest of the book of Daniel is written in Hebrew which means 2-7 pertains to the gentile nations and not to the Jews. Chapter 2 is the beginning of that section and closes with chapter 7. Most interpreters think that this vision of wings being plucked off and the heart of a man given to it referes to Nebuchadnezzar going mad and being restored 7 years later. That's unlikely since that happened about 20 before the vision of the lion in chapter 7! Daniel cannot prophesy about something that already occured! The vision of chapter 7's four beast are figurative of 4 end time kingdoms competing for the dominance of the area around the Mediterranean. Chapter 7 cannot be a repetition of Daniel 7 since it is the same language and to the same people (gentile nations). The word before in 7:7 say's that this beast " was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns." This indicates that the first 3 beast of chapter 7 stand "before' or "in front of" the fourth beast. That indicates they are all end-time kingdoms since the first three beast stand "in front of" or before the fourth beast. http://www.bluelette...ngs=H6925&t=KJV

Your interpretation of Daniel 2 also has some issues.

The word inferior in Daniel 2:39 is #0772 "arah" which means earth, world, ground and is the only place the word inferior is translated land. So if inferior means land, that rules out the Medo-Persian empire as the second Empire. How can Medo-Persia be "land inferior" to the Babylonian Empire when it was about three times the size of Babylon? Medo-Persia wasn't 'land inferior' to Babylon!
Only the Median empire was inferior to Babylon since it was not only shortlived but also much smaller making it the inferior kingdom. And!

I have issues with....or I should say the scriptures have issues with the vision of the statue depicting Rome in any way.

Not only does Rome as the fourth kingdom contradict the true inferior kingdom. It also contradics the word mixed which describes the iron and clay. All the kingdoms in the statue are Mid-East kingdoms. None of them are European. So if you believe Rome is infered in the vision of the statue you must explain why the word used to describe the iron and clay is the Aramaic word 'arab' which denotes an ARABIAN!

http://www.bluelette...ngs=H6151&t=KJV

The fourth kingdom, symbolized by the legs of iron (Greece) and toes mingled with "iron and clay", doesn't come from Rome as most Protestant's teach but from the Grecian Empire. The Grecian Empire didn't cover Rome or Europe as it was a Mid-East Empire just like the others depicted in the statue. Rome was an European Empire and is excluded as the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2. Rome cannot be the origin of the two and ten horned beast. (antichrist and false prophet)

 

[popeye]

I merely asked you to explain the significance of the beast/body assignments, which you apparently declined tot provide. Do you now wish to make that information available?

misunderstood your question, I guess...

The lion is England, who likely is the mouthpiece for the beast kingdom, with great iron teeth ( meaning he devours his political enemies somehow ).
The leopard probably refers to the swiftness of taking-over control of the world's countries.
The bear indicates the fierceness of his take-over, with nails of brass ( similar to Alexander's conquering ? )

There....I took a "stab" at it....

The plan for Salvation clearly existed from the Garden of Eden, and I would argue prior that era. Dos this suggest that Jesus had to appear at that time also?

Jesus was in existence at the time of, and privy-to, the original God-devised plan for salvation.

You should be a little embarrassed by misrepresenting the sequence as provided by both Scripture:

1. Gold
2. Silver
3. Bronze
4. Iron
--. Clay "divided", as least into TWO, and possibly MORE, as provided by additional information


... and by the TRUTH of History:

Daniel 2 & 7
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle -- U.K./U.S. (please note that Daniel 11:5 depicts this association)
-- 6. Bear with 3-ribs -- Russia and the three (and ONLY three) international violations since WWII
-- 7. Leopard with 4-heads/4-wings -- China, with the FOUR branches of government / "FOUR Modernizations"
-- 8. "dreadful" -- which "was and is not", because it has NO populous, NO geography, NO army, etc.


Of course it is important to note that there ARE Seven World Empires in History (--Four of which are consecutive, and Three of which are concurrent--), and there's an eighth which is a usurper ("was, and is not").


BibleScribe

You missed my point...There were only 4 world empires in history down to the birth of Christ. Rev 12:3 & 4 shows a beast with 7 heads. If your premise is correct, that is, the empires equal the 7 heads, then at this point in history the Roman Empire was only the fourth kingdom on earth, but there was a beast with 7 heads shown at that time. This means the seven heads CAN NOT BE REPRESENTING KINGDOMS, past, present or future. They MUST be representing something else. And my best guess at this point is they represent 7 high-ranking fallen angels who have taken their turns possessing earthly leaders throughout history.

 

[popeye]

Kao - I agree with your assessment of the four beasts. We know they are end time beasts because of the inferrance that the beasts are in existence up until the time of the GT & MK ( see Dan 7-10, 14, 17 & 18, 21, 22, 26 & 27 ). Furthermore, the "little horn" is also shown on the goat in the ram / goat vision ( chp 8 ), and the angel there says that vision concerned the time of the end. The lion w/ eagles wings is the England / USA connection. The Bear is Russia. But who is the Leopard? Still trying to figure that one out. I know 'Scribe believes it to be China, but I'm inclined to believe it's either Germany of Africa.

As to your assertion that Rome is not included in the prophecy of the statue....are you serious? Rome played a major role in Christ's life, Paul's life, Peter's life, the destruction of the 2nd temple, and the start of the diaspora, not to mention it expanded into the near east engulfing much of the arab lands and people in the eastern Roman Empire. Furthermore, as Tsigano pointed out, it was the model for democracies down to this day.

What is so hard to grasp about a Revived Roman Empire being the end time beast power, which includes every descendant country of the original peoples and landmasses it originally occupied in the first and second centuries AD?!And the EU best fits this description....especially when you consider they have been moving further and further towards agnosticism.

 

[revturmoil]

Kao - I agree with your assessment of the four beasts. We know they are end time beasts because of the inferrance that the beasts are in existence up until the time of the GT & MK ( see Dan 7-10, 14, 17 & 18, 21, 22, 26 & 27 ). Furthermore, the "little horn" is also shown on the goat in the ram / goat vision ( chp 8 ), and the angel there says that vision concerned the time of the end. The lion w/ eagles wings is the England / USA connection. The Bear is Russia. But who is the Leopard? Still trying to figure that one out. I know 'Scribe believes it to be China, but I'm inclined to believe it's either Germany of Africa.

As to your assertion that Rome is not included in the prophecy of the statue....are you serious? Rome played a major role in Christ's life, Paul's life, Peter's life, the destruction of the 2nd temple, and the start of the diaspora, not to mention it expanded into the near east engulfing much of the arab lands and people in the eastern Roman Empire. Furthermore, as Tio pointed out, it was the model for democracies down to this day.

What is so hard to grasp about a revived Roman empire including every descendant country of the original peoples and landmasses it originally occupied in the first and second centuries AD?!

I'm not sure who the four beast of Daniel 7 are. Some people think the Leopard is Germany.

The truth is Rome is not mentioned in one verse of end-time prophecy.

I use to believe Rome WAS the fourth kingdom of the statue. BUT! I don't any more.

If you believe it is. Explain to me how Medo-Persia was inferior to Babylon. And explain why and how the word 'mixed' which is 'arab' in Aramaic and denotes an Arabian or 'Arabia" and how it can denote a Roman! AND!

Where is there even one scripture supporting Rome as an end-time beast anywhere in scripture?

Again. You are living in the past. Just because Rome cricified Christ, persecuted the Jews, and destroyed the temple about 2000 years ago doesn't automatically make it the end-time beast especially when the scriptures don't support that interpretation!

You also said,

not to mention it expanded into the near east engulfing much of the arab lands and people in the eastern Roman Empire.

That's not true! The Roman Empire barely encompassed a small piece of the Arab world. (Mostly around Syria) The Roman Empire was a European Empire! Look at the maps!

 

[revturmoil]

What is so hard to grasp about a Revived Roman Empire being the end time beast power, which includes every descendant country of the original peoples and landmasses it originally occupied in the first and second centuries AD?!And the EU best fits this description....especially when you consider they have been moving further and further towards agnosticism.

It's pretty difficult to grasp an end-time empire that is not mentioned in end-time prophecy! Agnosticism has nothing to do with the end or the empire of the beast.

 

[Tsigano]

-- 5. Lion/Eagle -- U.K./U.S. (please note that Daniel 11:5 depicts this association)
-- 6. Bear with 3-ribs -- Russia and the three (and ONLY three) international violations since WWII
-- 7. Leopard with 4-heads/4-wings -- China, with the FOUR branches of government / "FOUR Modernizations"
-- 8. "dreadful" -- which "was and is not", because it has NO populous, NO geography, NO army, etc.
BibleScribe

Sorry BS.
I can't accept this as any form of fact. Saying things like Britain & the Us etc has absolutely no grounds of evidence other than your own personal theory.
Jesus reveals things to His church as a whole. I'm sure most agree that it is common knowledge that the majority of Spirit lead Christians feel and have always felt throughout the ages that the beast with ten horns is Rome. I'me sure most are aware that I am not alone in my saying it is Rome.
The second beast with two horns I feel is Islam. I think this is the message coming through to the Church today is the warning of the rise of Islam. That is our present age.

The fact is I felt very sure inside that the beast with ten horns and seven heads (ten kings and seven hills) was Rome. The verse in Daniel makes it very clear that there was another king that came after the ten previous kings and this horn replaces three kings. That there fore leads to the reasonable assumption that three of these kings must have been around at the same time. That leaves seven prior to the three together.

Study the history of Rome and you will find that Rome only ever had seven kings, the only other time that any one (or three in this case) was in total control was during the introduction of the Lex Titia where there were three given the reign of Rome.
This reign of three was brought to a halt and Rome had it first Emperor (the eleventh horn which was mightier than the rest).

I for one believe that the verses in Daniel as is most of the Old Testament are primarily prophecy given to the Jews as to when Jesus was coming. When I read all the verses of Isaiah, Daniel Psalms etc I see most giving reference to Jesus. Jesus often confirmed this Himself that the verses were reference to Him.

Please not undervalue to importance of the coming of Jesus and what He achieved. Our entire existence is because of Him.

Therefore prior to the birth and coming of Christ, Rome had a total of seven kings throughout its existence. Other than being a republic it had a joint rule of three. It then had its first emperor. 7 kings + rule of 3 + first emperor. That is its total number of rulers in leadership prior to Christ coming. Unless you want to count the senate.. Look it up for yourselves.
Rome also has seven hills.

As for the verses that confirms to me that the ten horns and seven hills are Rome is in Revelations 12. It refers to the ten horns and seven heads as the dragon which we know is Satan. It doesn't say with two horn looking like a lamb. It uses the exact description of the beast in Daniel. It also say how the ten horns and seven heads will be there at the time of the birth of Christ. It then say it will be there at the time of that the Jews leave Israel.
How can this not be Rome? It was even Rome that destroyed the temple. The very temple that is mentioned about being built in God's word. As a result the Jews do not make sacrifice to this very day. How can we just brush these facts away?

Rome has not died. The city is very much still there and is actively a part of the United Europe and North America etc to this day. The Vatican of the Roman Catholic Church which to me is a major aspect of the Christian identity is also located within Rome. How can we dismiss Rome as a thing of the past?

 

[popeye]

The truth is Rome is not mentioned in one verse of end-time prophecy.
Where is there even one scripture supporting Rome as an end-time beast anywhere in scripture?

Sure there is a scripture supporting The Roman Empire as the end times beast. Tsigano and I have already proved that to you.

Rev 12:3 & 4

Unless you know of another kingdom that was a world power at the time of the birth of Christ, then, wahla, Rome was it.
Therefore, being Rome was the world power at the time of the birth of Christ, and that world power was symbolized by a 7 headed beast, then everywhere else in prophetic scripture, where it shows a 7 headed beast, the implication is that it is Roman Empire related.

As to the extent of the Roman Empire, the eastern half composed of Israel, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Most of Iraq and all of Turkey, as well as the "-stan countries. If ya don't believe me, looky fur yerself:

http://www.roman-empire.net/maps/empire/extent/rome-modern-day-nations.html