RT's illegitimate language use

[Eternally Grateful]

Disagree. I think a strong case can be made that the unbelieving/non-observant among Israel were "not Israel" from the beginning.

Look at Matthew 13. Jesus explains the kingdom as a field of wheat and tares, planted together. We tend to focus on the end of the story... at the harvest, they will be sorted. The wheat goes in the barn. The tares go in the fire.

But look at the beginning... the idea here is that Israel was planted as a mixed group. The enemy sowed tares at the same time the Lord sowed wheat.

In the same chapter, the kingdom is leaven hidden in flour. A treasure hidden in a field.

Look at 1st Kings 19 and Romans 11. Israel is already reckoned as a remnant, 7000 men who "have not bowed the knee to Baal," which exist, hidden, within the larger group of unfaithful. Paul says God hasn't abandoned Israel, and in the next breath he reckons Israel as that remnant.

Look at Deuteronomy 11. Here at the very beginning of Israel, Moses divides the people into two groups. He put them on two hills facing each other, and gave them blessings and curses - the blessings for the faithful and the curses for the unfaithful.

The case is that "Israel" was always a mixed group - the faithful children of Promise always existed alongside the reprobate. The former are truly Israel, the latter are a counterfeit Israel.

can you tell me who this is talking about. and when (if) it happened?

Ez 37 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

 

[Wick Stick]

I agree with what you said so far, but your post above suggests that they were all killed in 725 B.C. Yet when Paul quotes Hosea's prophecy regarding them, he includes the Gentiles, and speaks as though the prophecy has been fulfilled:

Hosea:
"And when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. And He said, Call his name Not-my-people. For you are not My people, and I will not be for you.
Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God." -- Hosea 1:9-10

".. whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations? As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God." -- Romans 9:24-26.

The people Hosea was talking about - the 10 tribes of the Northern kingdom of Israel - ceased being a nation before God (Isaiah 7:8), and the overwhelming majority of them were not killed, but exiled in 725 B.C. They indeed became scattered among the nations, where their descendants have been intermarrying with Gentiles to this day - to the point where they cannot be traced anymore, and no one can trace his genetic ancestry back to one of those tribes (even if someone could, his ancestry will still be mixed).

So the resurrection you are speaking about (mentioned in Ezekiel) is the resurrection of the Gentiles in Christ who are considered "The house of Israel who had not received mercy, but now have received mercy", fulfilling the prophecy in Hosea 1:9-10.​

Yes, you've got it. I should have read this post before the other one.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It HAS been fulfilled by Christ, but it isn't Abraham's physiological descendants who were returned.

Paternity and maternity are very different things in antiquity, and therefore within the Bible. Maternity has to do with the material of the creature - the flesh. Paternity has to do with the form imprinted on that material - the image to use the Biblical term. This is nature and nurture, clay being molded. God is reckoned as a Father because he stamps His image on man.

Likewise, Abraham is a patriarch. His children are not reckoned by the flesh/nature/maternity. They are reckoned according to the image/nurture/paternity, and that image is one of belief.

An important question throughout the history of the Jews is, "who is a Jew?" In Old Testament times, it was reckoned by patriarchy. Since the middle ages, it has been reckoned as a matriarchy. In Jesus day, this was a topic of debate. Jesus weighs in on this debate in John 8-10. His position is that we ought to ignore genealogies and instead look at behavior.

"Avoid foolish questions and genealogies."

"If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham."

"By their fruits ye shall know them."

God made a promise to a nation of people. An unconditional promise

He also made a promise to the world. An unconditional promise

does God keep his promises?

 

[Wick Stick]

God made a promise to a nation of people. An unconditional promise

He also made a promise to the world. An unconditional promise

does God keep his promises?

I see covenants in the Bible. They have conditions...

Gen 17
The LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Deu 11
Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

 

[covenantee]

God made a promise to a nation of people. An unconditional promise

He also made a promise to the world. An unconditional promise

does God keep his promises?

Absolutely.

2 Corinthians 1
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Why don't you believe Him?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I see covenants in the Bible. They have conditions...

Gen 17
The LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Deu 11
Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Was abraham perfect?

Can you show me the condition in Gen 12 and gen 15?

deu is the mosaic covenant. Do you understand the difference between this and the abrahamic covenant?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Absolutely.

2 Corinthians 1
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Why don't you believe Him?

I do believe him

Thats why I believe when Israel repents, he will rostore them to their land.

why don;t you believe him?

 

[rwb]

I do believe him

Thats why I believe when Israel repents, he will rostore them to their land.

why don;t you believe him?

Why would God restore ethnic Israel to the land of Caanan since He has promised those of faith shall inherit the whole earth?

 

[Wick Stick]

Was abraham perfect?

Yes, according to the meaning of the word used there. Perfect is kind of an odd translation, isn't it? I think the word may have shifted in meaning since King Jimmy's men made the translation.

Can you show me the condition in Gen 12 and gen 15?

Yes.

Gen 12:1
Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Gen 15:6
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

deu is the mosaic covenant. Do you understand the difference between this and the abrahamic covenant?

Yes, that's why I listed both.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, according to the meaning of the word used there. Perfect is kind of an odd translation, isn't it? I think the word may have shifted in meaning since King Jimmy's men made the translation.

is this the same abraham that laughed at God. Commited adulty on his wife. Was so afraid, claimed his wife was his sister?

He was perfect??

Yes.

Gen 12:1
Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Gen 15:6
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.


Yes, that's why I listed both.

Gen 15 is it in a nutshell.

He believed God. and God credit him as righteous, as perfect.

And Because of this, God gave Abraham a gift. and he said FOREVER.

no conditions..

 

[Wick Stick]

is this the same abraham that laughed at God. Commited adulty on his wife. Was so afraid, claimed his wife was his sister?

He was perfect??

You didn't click on the link then, or look up the meaning of the word.

Gen 15 is it in a nutshell.

He believed God. and God credit him as righteous, as perfect.

And Because of this, God gave Abraham a gift. and he said FOREVER.

no conditions..

There were definitely conditions. "Get out of your father's house, go to a land I'll show you," and "walk before me and be perfect" and the need to believe. I literally listed conditions and you're just pretending that didn't happen?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You didn't click on the link then, or look up the meaning of the word.

There were definitely conditions. "Get out of your father's house, go to a land I'll show you," and "walk before me and be perfect" and the need to believe. I literally listed conditions and you're just pretending that didn't happen?

Abraham did not meet those conditions though.

He was not perfect

And he did not immediately leave his house, in fact, he took his family, and he also went someplace else first.

In gen 15. Only Christ walked through the center. He did not allow abraham to go through. Because it is an unconditional covenant.

 

[Zao is life]

Why would God restore ethnic Israel to the land of Caanan since He has promised those of faith shall inherit the whole earth?

I agree. It's like those who argue with you are saying "Never mind all the Jews who have repented of their unbelief since the first century, beginning with the apostles, till now, being restored to their land. It will only happen for the unbelievers among Abraham's natural descendants when Jesus returns in judgment upon all unbelievers".

Makes sense to some, though.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why would God restore ethnic Israel to the land of Caanan since He has promised those of faith shall inherit the whole earth?

Because God promised it to them?

God promised you salvation. What If God just took his promise back from you?

 

[Wick Stick]

View attachment 38176

Abraham did not meet those conditions though.

He was not perfect

And he did not immediately leave his house, in fact, he took his family, and he also went someplace else first.

In gen 15. Only Christ walked through the center. He did not allow abraham to go through. Because it is an unconditional covenant.

You... can't discern the meaning of the words in front of your face? I think I'll stop putting more words there.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You... can't discern the meaning of the words in front of your face? I think I'll stop putting more words there.

i can discern quite well

and I know the difference between an unconditional covenant like the abrahamic covenant (God said I WILL, he did not say I WILl as long as YOU DO)

and a conditional covenant, such as the mosaic covenant (I wilol do this, as long as you do this, if you do not do this, i will do that.)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Disagree. I think a strong case can be made that the unbelieving/non-observant among Israel were "not Israel" from the beginning.

A "strong case?" I don't think so. Please try?

Look at Matthew 13. Jesus explains the kingdom as a field of wheat and tares, planted together. We tend to focus on the end of the story... at the harvest, they will be sorted. The wheat goes in the barn. The tares go in the fire.

But look at the beginning... the idea here is that Israel was planted as a mixed group. The enemy sowed tares at the same time the Lord sowed wheat.

In the same chapter, the kingdom is leaven hidden in flour. A treasure hidden in a field.

These parables do not present a "strong case" for your claim that literal, national Israel is *not* always "Israel!" As I've been saying, delegitimizing the place of Jews in the nation is more a judgment than a re-definition. They remain Israel but they are not "true Israel" in the sense they are *unfaithful Israel.*

Look at 1st Kings 19 and Romans 11. Israel is already reckoned as a remnant, 7000 men who "have not bowed the knee to Baal," which exist, hidden, within the larger group of unfaithful. Paul says God hasn't abandoned Israel, and in the next breath he reckons Israel as that remnant.

Look at Deuteronomy 11. Here at the very beginning of Israel, Moses divides the people into two groups. He put them on two hills facing each other, and gave them blessings and curses - the blessings for the faithful and the curses for the unfaithful.

The case is that "Israel" was always a mixed group - the faithful children of Promise always existed alongside the reprobate. The former are truly Israel, the latter are a counterfeit Israel.

I would agree that Israel is a "mixed group," divided between those who were faithful and those who were not. But this is not a re-definition, but rather, a judgment as to who should be culled from the herd.

When you take flawed, sick animals out of a herd of cattle, they do not stop being "cattle." They are simply culled. Israelites who are culled from the nation, and sent away into exile, do not stop being "Israel." They are simply either rejected for all time or chastised in preparation for their repentance and restoration.

Even those who are rejected for all time do not stop being "Israel." They are simply viewed as "unfaithful Israel" and are separated from the community of the faithful. This eternal separation is represented by the "Lake of Fire." It removes the chaff.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I learned long ago it is not really worth talking this subject with him.

All he does is attack anyone who does not agree with him..

Yes, I don't always obey God when He shows me that I should not go down a rabbit hole with someone who cannot be trusted. My weakness is in being soft.

Thanks for the encouragement to do the right thing. Paul said repeatedly that we should mark certain people to avoid, even if they're Christians. We should not call them non-Christian, but we should mark them as disobedient and rebellious, until they learn to obey the Spirit.

I always try to keep a door open to these people. But sometimes I respond to them because their subject demands an answer on behalf of other people. I just have to know how far to go with them before it becomes a "shouting match."

 

[marks]

These parables do not present a "strong case" for your claim that literal, national Israel is *not* always "Israel!" As I've been saying, delegitimizing the place of Jews in the nation is more a judgment than a re-definition. They remain Israel but they are not "true Israel" in the sense they are *unfaithful Israel.*

I don't see how anyone can dismiss this passage:

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Ethnic Israel is assured by God in no uncertain terms that God will preserve them.

Much love!

 

[Wick Stick]

When you take flawed, sick animals out of a herd of cattle, they do not stop being "cattle." They are simply culled. Israelites who are culled from the nation, and sent away into exile, do not stop being "Israel." They are simply either rejected for all time or chastised in preparation for their repentance and restoration.

That's a good metaphor.

The Bible uses a similar one, but a little different. There, they are sheep and goats. The sheep follow the shepherd, and the goats... well they act like goats... climbing trees, making comical screams, stranding themselves on impossible ledges... goat stuff.

Even those who are rejected for all time do not stop being "Israel." They are simply viewed as "unfaithful Israel" and are separated from the community of the faithful. This eternal separation is represented by the "Lake of Fire." It removes the chaff.

We can agree that they don't stop being Israel. Where we disagree is whether they were ever Israel to begin with. As nearly as I can tell, the answer is that they weren't. They were Edom and Ishmael, masquerading as part of Israel.