RT's illegitimate language use

[Randy Kluth]

"Replacement Theology" turns the word "Israel" into a dual-purpose word, retaining its literal meaning "Israel" as a natural people, but simultaneously turning it into an allegorized term denoting a "spiritual people." There is no basis for inserting this process of allegorization, which began at some point in the Early Church and was adopted by leading figures, including the Church Fathers, who thought it might be on a par with "revelation."

Though Paul does use allegory, he does not allegorize "Israel" by redefining it as the International Church. He only defines the nation as an ideal which is an ages-long process that requires a long time to arrive at. Many are delegitimized not because they have ceased to be Israelis, but only because they have ceased to belong to a nation from which they have religiously departed. They are "cut off" like any apostate would be cut off from a doctrinally-orthodox congregation.

Israelis never cease to be Israelis even when the entire majority have apostacized. That's because there is no nation left to be cut off from--they've all been exiled. But even in exile they remain members of Israel potentially, inasmuch as those Jews in exile have been given a hope of return when they repent of their sins. And even those who remain ignorant in their sins can be restored, since God has indeed promised to restore Israel at a time when they don't deserve it. Ezekiel 36.

 

[Truth7t7]

"Replacement Theology" turns the word "Israel" into a dual-purpose word, retaining its literal meaning "Israel" as a natural people, but simultaneously turning it into an allegorized term denoting a "spiritual people." There is no basis for inserting this process of allegorization, which began at some point in the Early Church and was adopted by leading figures, including the Church Fathers, who thought it might be on a par with "revelation."

Though Paul does use allegory, he does not allegorize "Israel" by redefining it as the International Church. He only defines the nation as an ideal which is an ages-long process that requires a long time to arrive at. Many are delegitimized not because they have ceased to be Israelis, but only because they have ceased to belong to a nation from which they have religiously departed. They are "cut off" like any apostate would be cut off from a doctrinally-orthodox congregation.

Israelis never cease to be Israelis even when the entire majority have apostacized. That's because there is no nation left to be cut off from--they've all been exiled. But even in exile they remain members of Israel potentially, inasmuch as those Jews in exile have been given a hope of return when they repent of their sins. And even those who remain ignorant in their sins can be restored, since God has indeed promised to restore Israel at a time when they don't deserve it. Ezekiel 36.

(Replacement Theology) is a term invented by those in the school of John N. Darby's dispensationalism in Christian Zionism

God's words clearly teach that the Kingdom was taken from a National Ethnic People Jews (Israel) and inherited by the Church through the cross of Calvary

Dialogue With Trypho The Jew, Chapter CXXXV.—Christ is king of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic race.

"As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race."

Matthew 21:42-43KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[Randy Kluth]

(Replacement Theology) is a term invented by those in the school of John N. Darby's dispensationalism in Christian Zionism

God's words clearly teach that the Kingdom was taken from a National Ethnic People Jews (Israel) and inherited by the Church through the cross of Calvary

Careful now. The words were, the Kingdom of God is taken from Israel and given to a nation worthy of it, which I believe to be the Roman Kingdom. This is the basis by which European Civilization became a Christian Civilization, a new "Israel" as such.

But I wouldn't call European Christianity "Israel," since Europe consists of many nations, and Israel consists of only one nation. So to use a term like "Israel" and apply it to the International Church is an abuse of the language, and illicit allegorization of a term to dismiss Israel's Hope in favor of European Christianity.

You were talking about "inheriting" the Kingdom of God from Israel, and that may be true in some sense. But in another sense, the Kingdom of God remains Israel's to possess, along with the European Christians. The Kingdom of God can be re-obtained by Israel, since Christ's Grace was given for just that purpose, to restore Israel and to save many nations.

Dialogue With Trypho The Jew, Chapter CXXXV.—Christ is king of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic race.

"As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race."

As I've been saying, the early Church Fathers were the 1st to trade in Israel's Hope for this allegorization of the term "Israel." And as I said, it is an abuse of language. "Israel" cannot be allegorized in this way without losing its natural sense. And it cannot obtain two meanings simultaneously, one for natural Israel and the other for some allegorized sense of the nation Israel. The Scriptures do not use the term "Israel" in this way. The few places it may be argued that way are explained otherwise.

Matthew 21:42-43KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[Truth7t7]

As I've been saying, the early Church Fathers were the 1st to trade in Israel's Hope for this allegorization of the term "Israel." And as I said, it is an abuse of language. "Israel" cannot be allegorized in this way without losing its natural sense. And it cannot obtain two meanings simultaneously, one for natural Israel and the other for some allegorized sense of the nation Israel. The Scriptures do not use the term "Israel" in this way. The few places it may be argued that way are explained otherwise.

I Disagree with your Christian Zionist claims

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV
3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[Truth7t7]

Careful now. The words were, the Kingdom of God is taken from Israel and given to a nation worthy of it, which I believe to be the Roman Kingdom. This is the basis by which European Civilization became a Christian Civilization, a new "Israel" as such.

But I wouldn't call European Christianity "Israel," since Europe consists of many nations, and Israel consists of only one nation. So to use a term like "Israel" and apply it to the International Church is an abuse of the language, and illicit allegorization of a term to dismiss Israel's Hope in favor of European Christianity.

You were talking about "inheriting" the Kingdom of God from Israel, and that may be true in some sense. But in another sense, the Kingdom of God remains Israel's to possess, along with the European Christians. The Kingdom of God can be re-obtained by Israel, since Christ's Grace was given for just that purpose, to restore Israel and to save many nations.

As I've been saying, the early Church Fathers were the 1st to trade in Israel's Hope for this allegorization of the term "Israel." And as I said, it is an abuse of language. "Israel" cannot be allegorized in this way without losing its natural sense. And it cannot obtain two meanings simultaneously, one for natural Israel and the other for some allegorized sense of the nation Israel. The Scriptures do not use the term "Israel" in this way. The few places it may be argued that way are explained otherwise.

The book of James clearly teaches (The Church) is the tribes of Israel (Fact)

James 1:1KJV
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The book of James clearly teaches (The Church) is the tribes of Israel (Fact)

James 1:1KJV
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

As I said, and I can't emphasize this strong enough, the term "Israel" can be applied allegorically to the Church as a whole. But in doing so we *may not* de-allegorize the term to make it the standard definition of the term. In other words, we may use the term "Israel" as an allegory for the International Church, but we may *not* then turn the word "Israel" into meaning the International Church as a standard definition for the term.

Israel, by standard definition, refers to a single nation that inherited the land of Canaan, when the Canaanites were killed, and Israel was given the land by God. The many nations of the Church inherited the culture of faith from Israel, but Israel was not completely *dead,* such that the inheritance passed on to the Gentile Church, leaving the Jewish People behind. The culture of faith is shared equally between Jews and Gentiles in Christianity, and Israel remains "Israel" even if the majority have apostacized from their faith.

Israel retains its original definition and does not lose religious relevance in the face of the allegorized version of the word. This is what Replacement Theology says, that "Israel" has always been a reference to what the literal people allegorized, a "spiritual people." Only those of faith in Israel were "true Israel." And thus, Israel came to define not just the genuine reservoirs of faith in Israel, but also those nations "true Israel" expanded into, an "international community."

RT says that Literal Israel was exposed and defaced when the Law exposed it as an external facade, incapable of expressing "True Israel." But the Biblical Prophets did not stop calling Israel "Israel" in the literal sense, even when the entire nation fell into backsliding. On the contrary, it was promised that for Abraham's sake they would be restored.

It was not just a small remnant of faith that would be restored, but the entire backslidden state of Israel! And it would not be an expanded community of faith that would be restored, but literal backslidden Israel.

James addressed the "12 tribes," which does not refer to the International Church, but rather to literal Israel in the land of Canaan. Peter also does the same thing....

1 Pet 1.1 To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia.

We know that both Peter and James were initially called in the land of Israel, whereas Paul was called to go 1st to the Jews in other lands, and then to the people of those lands. So Paul did not primarily address Jews while both Peter and James did.

Peter and James were not referring to an allegorized version of "Israel" here, but to literal Israel, which they were called to preach to and lay the groundwork for a future salvation of the entire nation. Part of the problem is that this new allegorized version of "Israel" has come to diminish the value of nationhood in the term. RT attempts to circumvent the importance of an entire nation, emphasizing instead the value of the true remnant of faith.

But God's promise to Abraham meant to save not just individuals or remnants, despite the inevitability that at times nations of faith fail, and only small remnants and individuals survive in their faith. The promise, however, remains an effort to save not just individuals or small groups, but entire societies, to preserve entire societies and communities of faith. Justice would not just save the individual but would also provide a home for him or her in a place where they can live out their faith socially.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I Disagree with your Christian Zionist claims

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

I have replied to this elsewhere (#6). If you mean to call me a "Christian Zionist" as a term of contempt, I will wear it proudly. I believe God means to restore Israel politically, and He will, even if comes through judgment against Jews who are holding that salvation back.

 

[Truth7t7]

As I said, and I can't emphasize this strong enough, the term "Israel" can be applied allegorically to the Church as a whole. But in doing so we *may not* de-allegorize the term to make it the standard definition of the term. In other words, we may use the term "Israel" as an allegory for the International Church, but we may *not* then turn the word "Israel" into meaning the International Church as a standard definition for the term.

Israel, by standard definition, refers to a single nation that inherited the land of Canaan, when the Canaanites were killed, and Israel was given the land by God. The many nations of the Church inherited the culture of faith from Israel, but Israel was not completely *dead,* such that the inheritance passed on to the Gentile Church, leaving the Jewish People behind. The culture of faith is shared equally between Jews and Gentiles in Christianity, and Israel remains "Israel" even if the majority have apostacized from their faith.

Culture of faith? the Jews were cut off at the cross of Calvary and their rejection of Jesus Christ, it's that simple

Israel retains its original definition and does not lose religious relevance in the face of the allegorized version of the word. This is what Replacement Theology says, that "Israel" has always been a reference to what the literal people allegorized, a "spiritual people." Only those of faith in Israel were "true Israel." And thus, Israel came to define not just the genuine reservoirs of faith in Israel, but also those nations "true Israel" expanded into, an "international community."

National maintains no religious relevance as you falsely claim, they are no different than Africans, Chinese, Americans, or any other Nation

RT says that Literal Israel was exposed and defaced when the Law exposed it as an external facade, incapable of expressing "True Israel." But the Biblical Prophets did not stop calling Israel "Israel" in the literal sense, even when the entire nation fell into backsliding. On the contrary, it was promised that for Abraham's sake they would be restored.

False, National Israel has no promise of future restoration

It was not just a small remnant of faith that would be restored, but the entire backslidden state of Israel! And it would not be an expanded community of faith that would be restored, but literal backslidden Israel.

False, the remnant Jew will be saved and added to the Church on earth, the rest will be blind to salvation

Your problem is you try to lump the saved remnant into (National Israel) "False"

The remnant chosen elect jew will be saved (Church)

James addressed the "12 tribes," which does not refer to the International Church, but rather to literal Israel in the land of Canaan. Peter also does the same thing....

1 Pet 1.1 To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia.

We know that both Peter and James were initially called in the land of Israel, whereas Paul was called to go 1st to the Jews in other lands, and then to the people of those lands. So Paul did not primarily address Jews while both Peter and James did.

Peter and James were not referring to an allegorized version of "Israel" here, but to literal Israel, which they were called to preach to and lay the groundwork for a future salvation of the entire nation. Part of the problem is that this new allegorized version of "Israel" has come to diminish the value of nationhood in the term. RT attempts to circumvent the importance of an entire nation, emphasizing instead the value of the true remnant of faith.

False, James and Peter wrote the the elect (Church) where there is neither Jew nor Greek, your Christian Zionism is overflowing

But God's promise to Abraham meant to save not just individuals or remnants, despite the inevitability that at times nations of faith fail, and only small remnants and individuals survive in their faith. The promise, however, remains an effort to save not just individuals or small groups, but entire societies, to preserve entire societies and communities of faith. Justice would not just save the individual but would also provide a home for him or her in a place where they can live out their faith socially.

False, your promoting a Christian Zionist teaching of "National Salvation" for a future Israel, "Fake News"

Conclusion: Randy Your blinded by Christian Zionism a false teaching

 

[Truth7t7]

I have replied to this elsewhere (#6). If you mean to call me a "Christian Zionist" as a term of contempt, I will wear it proudly. I believe God means to restore Israel politically, and He will, even if comes through judgment against Jews who are holding that salvation back.

There will be no future political or religious salvation for a "National Israel" Randy's Christian Zionist Fairy tale

 

[Randy Kluth]

Culture of faith? the Jews were cut off at the cross of Calvary and their rejection of Jesus Christ, it's that simple

It's that simple for you, but not for me. We would disagree on that point. There is more than ample evidence, from my pov, to believe that Christ died to give Israel a 2nd chance. They were not, therefore, permanently rejected as Paul openly declares in Rom 9-11.

Rom 11.28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

National maintains no religious relevance as you falsely claim, they are no different than Africans, Chinese, Americans, or any other Nation

We disagree on this too. God promised Abraham a *national* posterity, which you obviously ignore and reject. To reject God's promises is a violation of belief in God's word.

False, National Israel has no prome of future restoration

Apparently Jesus' apostles were confused then? In Acts 1.6 they asked Jesus when the restoration of Israel would happen, when that "promise" would be fulfilled.

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

False, the remnant Jew will be saved and added to the Church on earth, the rest will be blind to salvation

That is what I just defined as "Replacement Theology," the replacement of the meaning of the word "Israel" with an allegorized version of the word. The word "Israel" literally refers to a single physical nation in Palestine, whereas the International Church is something completely different.

Your problem is you try to lump the saved remnant into (National Israel) "False"

That isn't a "problem." God promised the salvation of the Israeli remnant by its restoration as a full nation. This is a political salvation, that better enables the entire nation to come to evangelical salvation.

False, James and Peter wrote the the elect (Church) where there is neither Jew nor Greek, your Christian Zionism is overflowing

You're arguing what you wish to prove, but have not proven yet, that the "elect" must refer only to a bastardized version of the word "Israel." The "elect" referred to those in the Jewish nation who God called to faith--the entire nation was called to faith!

The culling of unbelievers under the Law did not cause "Israel" to be redefined! They were *all* called to faith. The nation was to be entirely based on faith. The fall of the nation does not mean they were not called to faith. And it doesn't mean they cannot return to faith.

Matt 23.38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ ”

False, your promoting the false Christian Zionist teaching of "National Salvation" for a future Israel, "Fake News"

Conclusion: Randy Your blinded by Christian Zionism a false teaching

Calling me a "Christian Zionist" is a poor un-Christian attempt at name-calling. Try sticking to the arguments, as opposed to childish name-calling? I am for some aspects of Zionism, but I'm not a card-carrying Zionist as if I support Israel no matter what.

 

[Truth7t7]

It's that simple for you, but not for me. We would disagree on that point. There is more than ample evidence, from my pov, to believe that Christ died to give Israel a 2nd chance. They were not, therefore, permanently rejected as Paul openly declares in Rom 9-11.

Christ died to give "National Israel" a 2nd chance, that's a new one, possibly you can start a new sect within Christian Zionism, smiles!

Paul mentions the (Remnant Elect) Jew, those who God will chose by his foreknowledge, National Israel is blinded

You falsely claim "National Israel" obtains salvation, and the scripture before your eyes says they are "Blinded", you act as if the scripture below doesn't exist "Why"?

Only the remnant elect are saved, and they become the (Church), just as all believers were chosen and elected to salvation by God's foreknowledge

Romans 11:7KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

We disagree on this too. God promised Abraham a *national* posterity, which you obviously ignore and reject. To reject God's promises is a violation of belief in God's word.

Sounds like believe Randy's false Christian Zionist teaching or your not a born again saved believer, smiles!

Apparently Jesus' apostles were confused then? In Acts 1.6 they asked Jesus when the restoration of Israel would happen, when that "promise" would be fulfilled.

That is what I just defined as "Replacement Theology," the replacement of the meaning of the word "Israel" with an allegorized version of the word. The word "Israel" literally refers to a single physical nation in Palestine, whereas the International Church is something completely different.

As you were clearly shown in Romans 9:6-8 (National Israel) children of the flesh, these aren't the children of God, simple, plain, easy to understand, if ones not blinded by Christian Zionism

That isn't a "problem." God promised the salvation of the Israeli remnant by its restoration as a full nation. This is a political salvation, that better enables the entire nation to come to evangelical salvation.

A false Christian Zionist teaching found no place in scripture

You're arguing what you wish to prove, but have not proven yet, that the "elect" must refer only to a bastardized version of the word "Israel." The "elect" referred to those in the Jewish nation who God called to faith--the entire nation was called to faith!

The New Testament shows (The Elect) of God refers to the (Church) on earth, try doing a word study, I will spare myself the time of posting the multitude of scripture

(The Elect) represents those called and elected to salvation (The Church) both Jew and Gentile

1 Peter 5:13-14KJV
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

2 Peter 1:10KJV
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

The culling of unbelievers under the Law did not cause "Israel" to be redefined! They were *all* called to faith. The nation was to be entirely based on faith. The fall of the nation does not mean they were not called to faith. And it doesn't mean they cannot return to faith.

Romans 11:7 above teaches (National Israel) will be blind to salvation, your claims once again are "False"

Matt 23.38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ ”

Calling me a "Christian Zionist" is a poor un-Christian attempt at name-calling. Try sticking to the arguments, as opposed to childish name-calling?

You are a Christian Zionist, and you have acknowledged and agreed to this fact in previous postings, if the shoe fits wear it

If you don't like the words (Christian Zionism) then stop teaching and promoting it

 

[Randy Kluth]

There will be no future political or religious salvation for a "National Israel" Randy's Christian Zionist Fairy tale

Can you please keep provocative language like "fairy tale" out of it? If you can't, I have no interest in discussions that lead to hostile rhetoric. Thank you.

 

[Wick Stick]

"Replacement Theology" turns the word "Israel" into a dual-purpose word, retaining its literal meaning "Israel" as a natural people, but simultaneously turning it into an allegorized term denoting a "spiritual people." There is no basis for inserting this process of allegorization, which began at some point in the Early Church and was adopted by leading figures, including the Church Fathers, who thought it might be on a par with "revelation."

Though Paul does use allegory, he does not allegorize "Israel" by redefining it as the International Church. He only defines the nation as an ideal which is an ages-long process that requires a long time to arrive at. Many are delegitimized not because they have ceased to be Israelis, but only because they have ceased to belong to a nation from which they have religiously departed. They are "cut off" like any apostate would be cut off from a doctrinally-orthodox congregation.

Israelis never cease to be Israelis even when the entire majority have apostacized. That's because there is no nation left to be cut off from--they've all been exiled. But even in exile they remain members of Israel potentially, inasmuch as those Jews in exile have been given a hope of return when they repent of their sins. And even those who remain ignorant in their sins can be restored, since God has indeed promised to restore Israel at a time when they don't deserve it. Ezekiel 36.

I don't think there's meant to be an allegory there.

In Genesis, God's covenant with Abraham is to make him a "father of nations." That word - nations - is elsewhere translated as Gentiles.

The Jews take this literally. If one converts to Judaism, part of that process is to be adopted as a child of Abraham. The ceremony would look familiar to you - it's a baptism.

In the New Testament, Jesus came and baptized many converts, and the apostles after him, and the whole church has continued to do so through the ages. He didn't baptize unto Abraham, but in His own name. But this isn't such a different thing, because Jesus is the Seed promised to Abraham. Well, according to Paul.

So then, Christian converts were originally adopted into Israel.

It's not an allegory; it's an adoption.

 

[Keraz]

What if WE are Israelites?
Careful study of Scripture shows that the Lord is a God of order and in His plan for the redemption of His creation, He chose the Israelite peoples. At this stage of history, only He knows exactly who they are. Amos 9:9 The Lord made unconditional promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that their descendants would be “great nations, as many as the sands of the sea, to be His witnesses and be a light to the nations.” Isaiah 43:10

Only the House of Judah [the Jews] are known at present, the other 10 tribes are lost to general knowledge, as God planned it. Deuteronomy 32:26

All twelve tribes will experience the great awakening as foretold by the prophets. Their blindness will pass away in the spiritual light that will come upon them regarding their identity and their responsibilities as the chosen people of God. Ezekiel 37:14, Romans 9:24-26, 1 Peter 2:9-10
Suppose you are an Israelite? What of it? If I am saved, what difference will it make?
The Scriptures speak of far more than the salvation of the individual. Those who accept the free gift of salvation also have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel [good news] of the coming Kingdom of God. This is being done now and will be done on a greater scale by His Christian peoples when they go to live in the Promised Land. Ezekiel 39:27, Revelation 7:1-14

The Bible presents us with a great volume of information, regarding the origins and history of the various races of mankind, the division of peoples into Israelite {Christian] and Gentile [non Christian] nations. The detailed prophesies of what will happen, then His people’s work for the period leading up to the Return of Jesus and His Millennium Kingdom. Isaiah 49:8

The truth about the Lord’s plan for all who qualify to be Israelite’s is a thread which runs through the whole Bible, every type, promise, Covenant, and act of God, points to the final fulfilment of His planned establishment of a people, all faithful Christian believers who will live in His Land, as He originally intended. Isaiah 62:1-5, Amos 9:13-15 His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10 and the Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8

Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after the right, all who seek the Lord: consider the Rock from which you were hewn, the quarry from which you came. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah who gave you birth, when I called him, he was but one. I blessed him and made him many.

Romans 4:23-24 The words “counted to Abraham as righteousness” apply not only to Abraham, but also to us: our faith, too, is to be counted: our faith in Jesus, raised to life for our justification.

When we go through Scripture and see the many prophecies about the judgement of the nations and the blessings promised to God’s holy people, who are now every faithful Christian believer: from every race nation and language, we see that most are for the “last days”, that is: the short period leading up to the end of this age and before the commencement of the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus. That is for us, upon whom, as Paul says: the end of the age has come.

It is evident that God wants us to be aware of coming events, He sent prophet after prophet, telling in great detail how His plans will unfold. The signs of our times, confirm that their fulfilment is imminent.

The Lord, in His mercy, has given us warning of imminent world changing and shocking happenings. We should be aware of His plans – be ready to rejoice and praise Him for the redemption and restoration of all His faithful Christian peoples into their heritage of the holy Land. Zechariah 8:7. Ephesians 1:11

 

[marks]

Matthew 21:42-43KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Only, I can't find where Jesus said that they would no longer be the chosen nation Israel. Can you point me to that place?

In fact, here, Jesus is saying, the kingdom will be taken from you (Israel) and given to a nation bringing forth it's fruits (not Israel).

The plain reading of this passage seems to deny the thing you are asserting it expresses.

It's like you are reading it as, "You will no longer be the chosen nation Israel, I'm making a different Israel to give the kingdom to."

But there is no change of identification of Israel in this passage.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

This is saying that Esau's children are not Israel, only Isaac's.

Start with Abraham. Not all of Abraham's children, only of the child of promise, Isaac. And not all of Isaac's children, only the child of choice, Jacob.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

To whom was this letter addressed? To whom was this covenant given? That's where your answer is to this.

The book of James clearly teaches (The Church) is the tribes of Israel (Fact)

James 1:1KJV
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Do you disbelieve the plain sayings of the text, that James wrote to the diaspora of the 12 tribes?

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

Only, I can't find where Jesus said that they would no longer be the chosen nation Israel. Can you point me to that place?

In fact, here, Jesus is saying, the kingdom will be taken from you (Israel) and given to a nation bringing forth it's fruits (not Israel).

The plain reading of this passage seems to deny the thing you are asserting it expresses.

It's like you are reading it as, "You will no longer be the chosen nation Israel, I'm making a different Israel to give the kingdom to."

But there is no change of identification of Israel in this passage.

Much love!

God likens Jerusalem to Sodom and Egypt, is Sodom and Egypt God's chosen also, smiles!

Revelation 11:8KJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

 

[marks]

God likens Jerusalem to Sodom and Egypt, is Sodom and Egypt God's chosen also, smiles!

Revelation 11:8KJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

A dreadful simile to say the least!

But where does this tell us Israel stops being Israel, and the gentiles become Israel? I'm not seeing that.

Did you have any response to what I wrote there?

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Christ died to give "National Israel" a 2nd chance, that's a new one, possibly you can start a new sect within Christian Zionism, smiles!

That's what I'd like to do, support the notion that existed in the early Church and likely exists presently confirming God's promise to Abraham that He will restore the nation He promised to him. Thank you for calling my belief "Christian Zionism" because I'm not purely a Zionist, which could be misleading. I'm not for everything some do in the name of "Zionism."

Only the remnant elect are saved, and they become the (Church), just as all believers were chosen and elected to salvation by God's foreknowledge

But what are you saying here, that in becoming a part of the Church Jews cannot congregate into a Christian nation at Christ's Return?

Romans 11:7KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Sounds like believe Randy's false Christian Zionist teaching or your not a born again saved believer, smiles!

Pay attention please. I said that Israel has failed--past tense, to become a Christian nation. I am saying that they can be *restored* as a nation of God by accepting Christ at his Coming. This is the whole reason Jesus declared the present age as an age of "punishment" for the Jewish People, leading up to the time when promises made to Abraham concerning Israel will be fulfilled. This is the "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of in Luke 21, the Olivet Discourse.

The New Testament shows (The Elect) of God refers to the (Church) on earth, try doing a word study, I will spare myself the time of posting the multitude of scripture

The term "elect" is used of those called by God, whether individuals or nations. Since Israel was called by God in the OT era, they were God's "elect" at that time. That's what "elect" means.

In the NT era, the Kingdom has been passed from Israel, who remains unbelieving, to Gentiles who are willing to believe and so become the new "elect." That's why Paul refers to the various churches as God's "elect."

Brother, you try too hard to be provocative. And it will never win you many friends. Just be a brother, and try to enjoy the "fellowship" we were all called to enjoy?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I don't think there's meant to be an allegory there.

In Genesis, God's covenant with Abraham is to make him a "father of nations." That word - nations - is elsewhere translated as Gentiles.

The Jews take this literally. If one converts to Judaism, part of that process is to be adopted as a child of Abraham. The ceremony would look familiar to you - it's a baptism.

In the New Testament, Jesus came and baptized many converts, and the apostles after him, and the whole church has continued to do so through the ages. He didn't baptize unto Abraham, but in His own name. But this isn't such a different thing, because Jesus is the Seed promised to Abraham. Well, according to Paul.

So then, Christian converts were originally adopted into Israel.

It's not an allegory; it's an adoption.

No, it is allegorization that is very evident in the time of Origen, one of the early Church Fathers (unless you reject him as such). Allegorization became a popular method of interpretation in the Church, particularly when it became inconvenient to support Israel in the time of their stubborn resistance to evangelization.

John's Baptism was a baptism into Israel's faith under the Law. Christian Baptism has nothing to do with the Law, and is a kind of initiation ceremony into the New Covenant of Christ.

We are all, as sinners, adopted into God's family, having been like corrupt "strangers" to God in His holy heaven. We are brought back in as though "lost children" to get a 2nd chance at being His children.

Eph 2.12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Paul explained that God's promise to Abraham was not just to guarantee Israel's ultimate Salvation, but also to guarantee there would be many other nations to enjoy that inheritance together with Israel.

Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

Jews think that these "other nations" are really just tribes as such of Israel. But Paul indicates they are really other nations other than Israel.

The transition from "only Israel" to "many nations" is an extension of the people of God from Israel to other Christian nations. And so, Israel, being a model for the Church, is often used in an allegorized form to show how God deals with Christian nations in the same way He dealt with ancient Israel.

1 Cor 10.For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.