RT's illegitimate language use

[covenantee]

2 cor 1 does not refute what I said

So moving on. I will trust god to keep his promise not only to me. But his nation

It transcends it, because it is the essence of the New Will/Testament/Covenant which is "established on better promises". Hebrews 8:6.

His Nation is His Church. 1 Peter 2:9 It is the joint-heir with Christ. Romans 8:16-17

Unbelieving Israel is the joint-heir of nothing.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Why is the church so bad at geography? This map is terrible. Problems:

Simeon... didn't receive a grant of land. This was his penalty (alongside Levi) for sinning.

Asher... at no point did Asher ever control Tyre or Sidon, or any territory north of the Leontes River for that matter.

Zebulon... is too small and/or in the wrong place. According to Isaiah, it included territory on the "other side of Jordan" and "by the way of the sea" and that territory is assigned to the eastern half of Manasseh here.

Manasseh... doesn't extend far enough north. The Israelites under Moses drove out the Amorites and captured their cities. The Amorite homeland was north of the Yarmuk River.

Reuben... most of the territory shown for it here actually was part of Moab. When the Israelites encamped east of Jordan and "opposite Jericho" they were in contact at that place with the Moabites (Num 25).

Ephraim... isn't large enough. It should be more southward to include Jerusalem and Bethlehem. The original name of Bethlehem was Ephratah, which is a derivation of the name Ephraim. It extends too far east on the map here... the border with Benjamin was at Bethel.

Benjamin... is almost completely in the wrong place. The eastern 2/3 of what is shown here was part of Ephraim, while the actual territory should extend much further northward into what is here shown as Manasseh.

Dan... never did actually conquer the territory he was assigned by lot. He instead established a city in the north. The city is shown here but not as part of the tribe of Dan.

I suggest you contact the linked source to the map and article with your criticism.

 

[Zao is life]

Well you failed

Ezekiel said JUDAH and ISREAL

And he said they were scattered because of sin

Twist it however you want if it convinces you. So be it

Christians have been kept so ignorant by their teachers always conflating the word "Israel" with "the Jews", as though all twelve tribes of Israel spoken of in the Old Testament and the prophets = "the Jews".

Give me the verse/s in Ezekiel 36:1 - 37:14 where Ezekiel said JUDAH please.

I'll give you two clues.

Clue #1 The following is not talking to, or about the Jews/JUDAH:

Ezekiel 36
16 The word of the LORD came to me:
17 "Son of man, when the house of Israel was living on their own land, they defiled it by their behavior and their deeds. In my sight their behavior was like the uncleanness of a woman having her monthly period.
18 So I poured my anger on them because of the blood they shed on the land and because of the idols with which they defiled it.
19 I scattered them among the nations; they were dispersed throughout foreign countries. In accordance with their behavior and their deeds I judged them.
20 But when they arrived in the nations where they went, they profaned my holy name. It was said of them, 'These are the people of the LORD, yet they have departed from his land.'
21 I was concerned for my holy reputation which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they went.

Clue #2 Nothing in Ezekiel 36:1 - 37:14 is talking to, or about the Jews or JUDAH.​

 

[Keraz]

Those who respond to the Gospel, are the true Israelites:

The people who hear the voice of Jesus and do what Jesus says: are my people of Israel, My Overcomers, the Victorious ones, literally the Israelites of God. Revelation 3:20-21 Not ethnic Jewish Israel, but the genuine Christian Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16

Jesus sent His Disciples-Apostles to the Gentiles; non-Jews, where the House of Israel was; scattered around the world. Not to Judah, as He preached to Judah and was rejected. Their mission was amazingly successful, resulting in the millions of Christians worldwide.

They didn’t disobey Jesus’ Command, by going to who the Jews referred to as Gentiles, because the people who heard the Gospel and who accepted it, plainly were Israelites, the ‘dispersion’, as John 7:35 informs us.
The prophecy of Caiaphas, John 11:50-52, was that; Jesus would die for the nation, in order to gather together the scattered children of God.

Jesus calls us His sheep, because we hear Him. John 10:16 Just as Noah heard God, and just as Abraham heard God. God says that no other people have heard Him but those with the faith of Abraham. He tells us that these are the people He chose... because they heard Him. Deuteronomy 7:6-10

Ephesians 1:4-5 Before the foundation of the world, He chose those who would accept Christ to be His people, to be without blemish in His sight and full of love of Him and their fellow men. It was His good will and pleasure that we Christians are predestined to be adopted as God’s children through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

What else can it mean, but that every person who has understanding and who accepts the Gospel of Jesus, belongs to the true Israel? Grafted into the one Seed, Jesus; but an originally chosen, natural born Christian Israelite. John 15:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10

Since every nation in the world has been completely genetically mixed, the sheep who hear Jesus' voice are from all the tribes, races, nations and languages. Revelation 7:9
It IS the way to know that we ARE the true Israel, because we DO hear Jesus and as faithful Christians, worship and obey Him.

John 10:1-18 tells us in very specific terms, the nature of the sheep and the shepherd. If we truly match that definition, mind and soul, we have the faith of Abraham in our being.

Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after righteousness, all who seek the Lord. Consider the Rock from which you are descended. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah, your mother, when I called him, he was but one; I Blessed him and he is now many.
This is a direct reference to Christians, the true Israelite sons of God. Romans 9:24-26

The other aspect to this doctrine; is how some people are made for different purposes. Call it predestination, or God the Potter making some ‘vessels’ to be kept and some to be discarded:

Romans 9:21-22 Surely the Potter can do what He likes with the clay? Is He not free to make two vessels out of the same lump, one to be treasured and one for common use?
But if it is indeed God’s purpose to display His retribution and to make His power known, it is that with great patience, He has tolerated vessels that are made for destruction?
Jeremiah 18:1-12

These are Bible truths, therefore it is beholden for us, who have had heard the ‘call of the Lord’ in our hearts, to be very sure to stand strong in our faith at all times and look forward to the great Day when Jesus comes, bringing our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Christians have been kept so ignorant by their teachers always conflating the word "Israel" with "the Jews", as though all twelve tribes of Israel spoken of in the Old Testament and the prophets = "the Jews".

Give me the verse/s in Ezekiel 36:1 - 37:14 where Ezekiel said JUDAH please.

​

5 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16 “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.


18 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’ 20 And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.

Please!

 

[Zao is life]

5 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16 “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.


18 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’ 20 And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.

Please!

I asked where Judah is mentioned from chapter 36 verse 1 to chapter 37 verse 14, and so you give chapter 37 from verse 16.

Try again.

@Eternally Grateful Let's make it even easier for you. Shorten it to chapter 36 only. Where is JUDAH mentioned in chapter 36?​

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I asked where Judah is mentioned from chapter 36 verse 1 to chapter 37 verse 14, and so you give chapter 37 from verse 16.

Try again.

@Eternally Grateful Let's make it even easier for you. Shorten it to chapter 36 only. Where is JUDAH mentioned in chapter 36?​

I am not talking about chapter 36, I am talking about chapter 37. Why would I even discuss chapter 36?

Come on man.. You are doing everything you can to ignore what Jesus promised in chapter 37.

vs 15 is where God explains to the prophet how he would do what he said he would do in the 1st 14 verses..

take the verses out of the equation. There were no chapters and verses in the origional text

 

[Zao is life]

I am not talking about chapter 36, I am talking about chapter 37. Why would I even discuss chapter 36?

Because you were indeed discussing both chapters 36 and chapter 37 when you started out. But I think that now you've decided that because you can't answer the question, you'd rather just stick to chapter 37. That's also rather amusing , but I'll go with that.​

Come on man.. You are doing everything you can to ignore what Jesus promised in chapter 37.

vs 15 is where God explains to the prophet how he would do what he said he would do in the 1st 14 verses..

You mean verse 14 is where God explains to the prophet how he would do what he said he would do in the 1st 14 verses.

And I haven't been ignoring chapter 37 at all.

You're probably correct though that verses 1-14 of chapter 37, which are talking about the whole house of Israel could (and probably does) refer to both the house of Israel and the house of Judah:

Leviticus 10: 6 And Moses said to Aaron and to Eleazar and Ithamar his sons, Do not uncover your heads nor tear your clothes, lest you die, and lest He be angry on all the people. But let your brothers, the whole of Israel, mourn the burning which the LORD has kindled.

Exodus 12:6 And you shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month. And the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

37:11 And He said to me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, Our bones are dried and our hope is lost; we are cut off by ourselves.

39:25 Therefore so says the Lord Jehovah: And I will return the captivity of Jacob, and will have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for My holy name.

"All Israel" and "the whole house of Israel" normally does refer to both the Northern kingdom's 10 tribes (the house of Israel) + the Southern kingdom's 2 tribes (the house of Judah) = all 12 tribes, so I admit you could be correct about verse 14.

So let's stick to chapter 37 then, since you say I've been doing everything I can to avoid it (which I have not).

Who is the house of Israel and who is the house of Judah in each of the verses below?

For as the girdle holds fast to the loins of a man, so I have caused the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah to cling to Me, says the LORD; so that they might be to Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hear.
-- Jeremiah 13:11

1. House of Israel =
2. House of Judah =

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.

1. House of Israel =
2. House of Judah =

And you, son of man, take a stick and write on it, For Judah and for his companions, the sons of Israel. And take another stick and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel, his companions. -- Ezekiel 37:16.

1. House of Israel =
2. Judah and his companions, the sons of Israel =

Please note: The house of Israel and the house of Judah are ALL sons of Israel (Jacob).

@Eternally Grateful If you understand the difference in the above verses between Israel and Judah, then you are well underway to understanding most of biblical prophecy twice as good as you've ever understood it before, and then you'll begin to understand why Ezekiel chapters 36-37 includes only the Gentiles who believe in Jesus + the Jews who believe in Jesus, and no one else.​

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Because you were indeed discussing both chapters 36 and chapter 37 when you started out. But I think that now you've decided that because you can't answer the question, you'd rather just stick to chapter 37. That's also rather amusing , but I'll go with that.​

That’s interesting since I quoted Ezekiel 37. I have never quoted or spoke of chapter 36

How can I even respond to you if you continue to lie?

 

[Zao is life]

That’s interesting since I quoted Ezekiel 37. I have never quoted or spoke of chapter 36

How can I even respond to you if you continue to lie?

What you quoted below is a continuation of chapter 36. You cannot separate chapter 36 from chapter 37. You yourself said that we must remember that chapter and verse divisions were only inserted into the text in 1227 A.D, for the sake of reference. Chapter 36 speaks only to and about the house of Israel, whereas chapter 37:21 speaks of both the house of Israel and the house of Judah after they have been united into one nation (See Hosea 1:9-11a):​

So Ez 37 was fulfilled in 1948?

Ez 37: 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

You also said this below:

Can you explain to me why Israel is still in sin, if they have been restored?

Why there is still 3 religions, one of them her greatest enemy in her capital city if they have been restored? why they are at war continuously with the nations all around them if they have been restored?

You can try to make your own narrative to ignore the truth. But you can not ignore the fact they HAVE NOT BEEN RESTORED yet..

There are Jews and Gentiles in Christ. Every time a Jew repents of unbelief and comes to faith in Christ, the house of Judah is being restored. Every time a Gentile repents of unbelief and comes to faith in Christ, they are being grafted into Israel and the house of Israel is being restored, and the two 'kingdoms' are being joined into one nation in Christ.

* Premillennialists will tell you that the promise of restoration in the land is referring to the millennial Kingdom of Messiah, and will take place when Christ returns and after the return of Christ.

* Amillennialists will tell you that the promise of restoration in the land is referring to the heavenly promised land in the new heavens and new earth, and will take place when Christ returns and after the return of Christ.

* Dispensationalists and Christian Zionists will tell you that the promise of restoration in the land has been taking place since 1948 merely because the unbelieving part of the house of Judah managed to get back ownership of a part of the land of their fathers (not Judah/Judea which is the West Bank, but Israel - the Northern kingdom of the 10 tribes), and they managed to do this through the Jewish Zionist movement and because some of nations (the most powerful nations in the U.N) agreed to give it to the unbelieving Jews in 1948.

Dispensationalists and Christian Zionists will tell you that God has done it. I disagree with them and agree with what you say above - HOWEVER, for now and in the mean time, in man's law and man's international law the country called Israel is 100% legitimate and belongs only to the Jews. It's just not a fulfilment of prophecy or of Ezekiel's prophecy that we have been talking about.​

 

[Zao is life]

You are avoiding what you said. You said they would be RESTORED TO THEIR LAND when they repent but obviously they are in their land WITHOUT repenting.

The entire claim is unscriptural.

God did not restore them to their land. They restored themselves to the land by the secular, non-Christian Jewish Zionist movement and got restored to the land by the most powerful nations voting through their U.N body to give the unbelieving Jews part of the land of the fathers - which excluded Judah/Judea, the land of the Jews' fathers, most of which lies in the West Bank.

@Eternally Grateful is correct, and it is your claim that is unscriptural. You have made the false assumption that because unbelieving Jews are seen back in (only part of) the land, that the prophecy has been fulfilled - a prophecy which only God will fulfil - through Christ and in Christ - in its time, and when its time has come.

Meanwhile in man's law the country now called Israel is 100% legitimate and belongs only to the Jews.​

 

[ewq1938]

God did not restore them to their land. They restored themselves to the land by the secular, non-Christian Jewish Zionist movement and got restored to the land by the most powerful nations voting through their U.N body to give the unbelieving Jews part of the land of the fathers - which excluded Judah/Judea, the land of the Jews' fathers, most of which lies in the West Bank.
​

The claim was that the Jews would repent (become Christians) and be restored to their land but they are already there without repentance. There also is no such prophecy about them repenting and turning to Christ and even if they did, how do you restore them to their land when they are already there? As I said, none of it makes any sense.

 

[Zao is life]

The claim was that the Jews would repent (become Christians) and be restored to their land

That was neither my claim nor the claim of Eternally Grateful. One day all those who are in Christ will be restored to the land and Ezekiel's prophecy will be fulfilled in the day this comes to pass - Amills believe it's a heavenly promised land in the NHNE, Premils believe it's in the millennium. But it has not happened yet. That is what Eternally Grateful was saying (at least what I understood him to be saying).

@ewq1938 You say it's already happened merely because a nation of people who do not believe in Jesus and who happen to be naturally descended from Jacob and from Judah have put themselves back in the land through their own Jewish Zionist movement and with the help of Gentiles (the UN).

Your claim is false and unscriptural.

 

[ewq1938]

That was neither my claim nor the claim of Eternally Grateful. One day all those who are in Christ will be restored to the land and Ezekiel's prophecy will be fulfilled in the day this comes to pass - Amills believe it's a heavenly promised land in the NHNE, Premils believe it's in the millennium. But it has not happened yet. That is what Eternally Grateful was saying (at least what I understood him to be saying).

@ewq1938 You say it's already happened merely because a nation of people who do not believe in Jesus and who happen to be naturally descended from Jacob and from Judah have put themselves back in the land through their own Jewish Zionist movement and with the help of Gentiles (the UN).

Your claim is false and unscriptural.

No, my claim is true and you have agreed with me. Those people are back in the land they had long ago. I never said it had anything to do with fulfilled prophecy though. You assumed that.

 

[Zao is life]

I never said it had anything to do with fulfilled prophecy though. You assumed that.

That what I understood Eternally Grateful's point to be also - that it had nothing to do with fulfilled prophecy, because they are still in unbelief. So forgive me for misunderstanding what your argument against that was, in that case.

 

[rwb]

can you tell me who this is talking about. and when (if) it happened?

Ez 37 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

This prophesy is fulfilled in Christ. You are reading the Old Covenant as though Christ has not already come and has fulfilled, and is fulfilling all that was written from the Old. You're reading the Old Testament in isolation without considering how the prophesies of Old are fulfilled for all who are of faith in Christ.

All the children that belong to Israel of God are being gathered together as one holy nation, one holy people unto the Lord. They are one chosen generation/people, and they have a King over them, there is no longer a division of two nations, in Christ we are all one, and no longer divided kingdoms. Those who are in Christ have turned away from idolatry and detestable things, and their transgressions have been forgiven them.

Luke 1:31-33 (KJV) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

John 10:16 (KJV) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Ephesians 2:18-22 (KJV) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 John 1:7 (KJV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

You're focused on literal, physical fulfillment for what was prophesied of Old to come, forgetting that Christ came with a Kingdom that is NOT of this world, and cannot be seen with physical sight, for His Kingdom is spiritual and is within you! You will never understand what was written in the Old without using the New Testament that you may know these things that must be spiritually discerned, do not speak of a physical kingdom upon this earth, but the heavenly spiritual Kingdom of God that Christ is ruling over His people from heaven since He ascended there after His cross and resurrection.

 

[rwb]

Ezek 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Jesus said exactly that

They are not restored today, they are still in sin..

Those who are in Christ are not still lost in sin. They have been restored to what they were in the beginning when God created man and pronounced them "very good." Because God sees His people through His Son, and they already possess eternal life through His sacrificial death, and they shall have immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh when He comes again for them.

 

[rwb]

I suggest you contact the linked source to the map and article with your criticism.

That really isn't necessary! Because the Israel of God, which includes both Jews & Gentiles of faith together in one holy nation unto God, are NOT looking for physical land upon an earth that is ordained to destruction.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What you quoted below is a continuation of chapter 36. You cannot separate chapter 36 from chapter 37. You yourself said that we must remember that chapter and verse divisions were only inserted into the text in 1227 A.D, for the sake of reference. Chapter 36 speaks only to and about the house of Israel, whereas chapter 37:21 speaks of both the house of Israel and the house of Judah after they have been united into one nation (See Hosea 1:9-11a):​

so you went from I quoted and spoke of Ezek 36, And now Changed?

I only quoted chapter 37. Chapter 37 speaks of God restoring the house of Judah and the house of Israel by taking them from the lands they were sent because of their sin, and bringing them back to the land he gave their fathers..

Juday and Israel seperated themselves into two nations. God removed the upper kingdom, then eventually removed the lower kingdom also.

The restoration is bringing these two houses back together again.

You also said this below:

There are Jews and Gentiles in Christ. Every time a Jew repents of unbelief and comes to faith in Christ, the house of Judah is being restored. Every time a Gentile repents of unbelief and comes to faith in Christ, they are being grafted into Israel and the house of Israel is being restored, and the two 'kingdoms' are being joined into one nation in Christ.​

Nope. Gentiles have no part in the restoration. Gentiles were not captured by Gentile nations and scattered among gentile nations. so they could be restored

* Premillennialists will tell you that the promise of restoration in the land is referring to the millennial Kingdom of Messiah, and will take place when Christ returns and after the return of Christ.

* Amillennialists will tell you that the promise of restoration in the land is referring to the heavenly promised land in the new heavens and new earth, and will take place when Christ returns and after the return of Christ.

* Dispensationalists and Christian Zionists will tell you that the promise of restoration in the land has been taking place since 1948 merely because the unbelieving part of the house of Judah managed to get back ownership of a part of the land of their fathers (not Judah/Judea which is the West Bank, but Israel - the Northern kingdom of the 10 tribes), and they managed to do this through the Jewish Zionist movement and because some of nations (the most powerful nations in the U.N) agreed to give it to the unbelieving Jews in 1948.

Dispensationalists and Christian Zionists will tell you that God has done it. I disagree with them and agree with what you say above - HOWEVER, for now and in the mean time, in man's law and man's international law the country called Israel is 100% legitimate and belongs only to the Jews. It's just not a fulfilment of prophecy or of Ezekiel's prophecy that we have been talking about.​

I am a dispensationalist. And God has not yet done it. 1948 at best is God putting them back in the land so they can rebuild a temple so that the end times prophecies can be fulfilled.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There also is no such prophecy about them repenting and turning to Christ and even if they did,

Wow. Have you studied the OT prophets? Or how about romans 11..

how do you restore them to their land when they are already there? As I said, none of it makes any sense.

God will restore them to the land completely.