Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[marks]

And I know I do not have it all figured out despite years of intense study. I have learned the more I know the more I don't know!

I debate intensely. I am direct and blunt, but there is no animosity in my writing. I believe in all I believe in 100% But I always know I could be wrong.

If one gives me a stronger biblical argument, I am willing to change. but after 48 years of studying the word and walking with god, One needs to present a very detailed argument.

I have practiced apologetics for many years so I have studied doctrine deeply, from many facets. I did that to know the arguments and the reasoning used behind the arguments, so I can give a better biblical argument or change where I have been shown to be wrong.

Ditto!

Except to say . . . you don't have to give me a detailed argument necessarily, only that you give a correct argument. Sometimes just a simple word from someone is enough to set me straight.

Much love!

 

[marks]

No, Calvin got it from Augustine. Prior to Augustine, the church universally confirmed free will.

And I've heard that Augustine held to a Manichean duality before becoming Christian, is that right?

Much love!

 

[reformed1689]

No, Calvin got it from Augustine. Prior to Augustine, the church universally confirmed free will.

If you want to focus on free will you already lose the battle. Calvinists do not deny free will. The will is absolutely free to choose what it desires. So the question is not question of will, it is a question of nature and desire.

 

[PinSeeker]

And I've heard that Augustine held to a Manichean duality before becoming Christian, is that right?

LOL! No idea... Interesting, though, if true...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Renniks]

And I've heard that Augustine held to a Manichean duality before becoming Christian, is that right?

Much love!

Yes, so if that's where he got it, it was not derived from scripture.

 

[Renniks]

If you want to focus on free will you already lose the battle. Calvinists do not deny free will. The will is absolutely free to choose what it desires. So the question is not question of will, it is a question of nature and desire.

This is a smokescreen for Calvinists. They say they don't deny free will but thier theology say that the will is never free.

 

[marks]

This is a smokescreen for Calvinists. They say they don't deny free will but thier theology say that the will is never free.

I think the idea is that we have free will, but only free to choose within our nature. For instance, we cannot "choose" to swim to the bottom of the ocean. And to the Calvinist, we cannot choose to believe in God, and therefore cannot believe in God without his having first quickened us.

For myself, I see a much more generous truth expressed in passages such as Titus 2, "for the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men", and I believe that God does indeed cause His grace to salvation to appear to each one. And then it is up to the man to choose.

As I understand it, the difference between the Calvinist and me is that the Calvinist will say, God gives the man a choice, and the man makes the only choice he is able to make, either unto life having been regenerated, or unto death, having not been regenerated.

While I'll say, God gives the man a choice, and it's a real choice to either accept or reject. Those who accept are regenerated, and God is not giving a dishonest invitation for someone to come to Him, all the while knowing the man cannot, God not having made a way.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

This is a smokescreen for Calvinists.

No "smokescreens."

They say they don't deny free will...

But you've said over and over again that they (Calvinists) do. Glad you've... repented.

...but their theology says that the will is never free.

Ah, now this is quite a different statement. Yes, as Paul ~ not Augustine or Calvin, as they merely relate Paul's words ~ says in Romans 5 and 6, man is either a slave to sin and unrighteousness (all are naturally) or a slave to righteousness (those who have been reborn of the spirit, by the Spirit). There is no "in-between" or "neutral."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I think the idea is that we have free will, but only free to choose within our nature.

Right, so it's not that we merely "can" or "cannot," per se, but that we will not, before being born again of the Spirit, because we are yet wholly inclined against doing so.

...to the Calvinist, we cannot choose to believe in God, and therefore cannot believe in God without his having first quickened us.

Again, will not, not merely "can not." And this is what Paul says.

For myself, I see a much more generous truth expressed in passages such as Titus 2, "for the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men", and I believe that God does indeed cause His grace to salvation to appear to each one. And then it is up to the man to choose.

Sure, in the same context as what Paul says in Romans 1, that what can be known about God has been clearly seen in everything made. What I said above, though, is still true. So you have to reconcile the two. And there's really only one way to do that. The heart is the real issue, the nature, what the man truly is at his core at any given moment. The nature, the heart, always drives the will.

While I'll say, God gives the man a choice, and it's a real choice to either accept or reject.

Sure.

Those who accept are regenerated...

No, that would be to say being a member of God's elect depends on us, and not God and His mercy and compassion, and that would be a direct violation of what Paul says in Romans 9:16.

, and God is not giving a dishonest invitation for someone to come to Him, all the while knowing the man cannot, God not having made a way.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

Again, will not, not merely "can not." And this is what Paul says.

In fact, "will not", because they "can not", isn't that right?

If they could, they might, but they cannot, so they will not. Isn't that the idea?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hey Barny? Thank you very much for that.

 

[Renniks]

Ah, now this is quite a different statement. Yes, as Paul ~ not Augustine or Calvin, as they merely relate Paul's words ~ says in Romans 5 and 6, man is either a slave to sin and unrighteousness (all are naturally) or a slave to righteousness (those who have been reborn of the spirit, by the Spirit). There is no "in-between" or "neutral."

Which means no free will. Only in reality, we aren't slaves in the sense that we can't choose something else. If we were, saints could never, ever sin. And unsaved people could never do good.
And of course Calvin said that God ordained everything which also makes free will only an illusion.

 

[Renniks]

Again, will not, not merely "can not."

A distinction without a difference.

 

[BarneyFife]

Hey Barny? Thank you very much for that.

Youbetcha, my good friend.

 

[BarneyFife]

I know this is a debate forum, but I can't keep track of which Calvinist believes what, so the debate is like a game of dodgeball and those who are not Calvinists are IT. One says they believe in free will, another engages in the false dilemma fallacy, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah... And the semantical jungle gym—GIVE ME A BREAK, ALREADY.

This issue just isn't important enough in and of itself to command any more of my time. The only skin I have in the game is helping those who suffer distress from it, and (PRAISE THE LORD!!!) some of that work has been successful, so I'll leave you guys to your high-fives and patting each other on the back. Yes, I'm making fun of you—Lighten up.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Jesus turns to the suffering one, and says, “Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.” There is a cry, an agonized struggle. The demon, in passing, seems about to rend the life from his victim. Then the boy lies motionless, and apparently lifeless. The multitude whisper, “He is dead.” But Jesus takes him by the hand, and lifting him up, presents him, in perfect soundness of mind and body, to his father. Father and son praise the name of their Deliverer. The multitude are “amazed at the mighty power of God,” while the scribes, defeated and crestfallen, turn sullenly away.

“If Thou canst do anything, have compassion on us, and help us.” How many a sin-burdened soul has echoed that prayer. And to all, the pitying Saviour's answer is, “If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.” It is faith that connects us with heaven, and brings us strength for coping with the powers of darkness. In Christ, God has provided means for subduing every sinful trait, and resisting every temptation, however strong. But many feel that they lack faith, and therefore they remain away from Christ. Let these souls, in their helpless unworthiness, cast themselves upon the mercy of their compassionate Saviour. Look not to self, but to Christ. He who healed the sick and cast out demons when He walked among men is the same mighty Redeemer today. Faith comes by the word of God. Then grasp His promise, “Him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37. Cast yourself at His feet with the cry, “Lord, I believe; help Thou mine unbelief.” You can never perish while you do this—never.

In a brief space of time the favored disciples have beheld the extreme of glory and of humiliation. They have seen humanity as transfigured into the image of God, and as debased into the likeness of Satan. From the mountain where He has talked with the heavenly messengers, and has been proclaimed the Son of God by the voice from the radiant glory, they have seen Jesus descend to meet that most distressing and revolting spectacle, the maniac boy, with distorted countenance, gnashing his teeth in spasms of agony that no human power could relieve. And this mighty Redeemer, who but a few hours before stood glorified before His wondering disciples, stoops to lift the victim of Satan from the earth where he is wallowing, and in health of mind and body restores him to his father and his home

It was an object lesson of redemption,—the Divine One from the Father's glory stooping to save the lost. It represented also the disciples’ mission. Not alone upon the mountaintop with Jesus, in hours of spiritual illumination, is the life of Christ's servants to be spent. There is work for them down in the plain. Souls whom Satan has enslaved are waiting for the word of faith and prayer to set them free.

The nine disciples were yet pondering upon the bitter fact of their own failure; and when Jesus was once more alone with them, they questioned, “Why could not we cast him out?” Jesus answered them, “Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.” Their unbelief, that shut them out from deeper sympathy with Christ, and the carelessness with which they regarded the sacred work committed to them, had caused their failure in the conflict with the powers of darkness.

In order to succeed in such a conflict they must come to the work in a different spirit. Their faith must be strengthened by fervent prayer and fasting, and humiliation of heart. They must be emptied of self, and be filled with the Spirit and power of God. Earnest, persevering supplication to God in faith—faith that leads to entire dependence upon God, and unreserved consecration to His work—can alone avail to bring men the Holy Spirit's aid in the battle against principalities and powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world, and wicked spirits in high places.

“If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed,” said Jesus, “ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove.” Though the grain of mustard seed is so small, it contains that same mysterious life principle which produces growth in the loftiest tree. When the mustard seed is cast into the ground, the tiny germ lays hold of every element that God has provided for its nutriment, and it speedily develops a sturdy growth. If you have faith like this, you will lay hold upon God's word, and upon all the helpful agencies He has appointed. Thus your faith will strengthen, and will bring to your aid the power of heaven. The obstacles that are piled by Satan across your path, though apparently as insurmountable as the eternal hills, shall disappear before the demand of faith. “Nothing shall be impossible unto you.”
Desire Of Ages—EGW—pp. 426-431.

That’s the book I found in a thrift store and read, I think. It fell apart as I was reading it and I tried to keep the pages because it was so dear but I was on a balcony and the wind caught a great portion and lofted it all over! I know it’s online for free but why do I keep not reading it again?? There was something, toward the very end I think, that I felt was very wrong. Something to do with…Jesus on the cross…? Oh I need to read it again! I don’t remember that it had excerpts like that though…I only remember verse after verse after verse, all fit together, not in the order of the Bible, but…in a different order that was wonderful. But I think it was God opening it all to me rather than the author of the book…I suddenly…knew everything, all at once, or saw, or had, everything all at once. Yet…I knew nothing. I knew everything yet knew nothing. Oh that does not make sense, how could it?? I read it all, cover to cover. If I stopped, it was only to sleep. And then I went inside. And in the sink area of the bathroom God suddenly showed me something I cant quite describe because words won’t do it but I have to try…He showed me how…huge He was, how everywhere He was, how…oh I can’t explain what I saw, I just cant. All I remember was being on the ground, moaning the word holy over and over again. At first it was as…ecstasy, but then it became a terror and I begged Him to stop or I would die. You would think what I did next would be impossible but…I left that vacation place and went home and did not pay any attention to God for six months. But it wasn’t a choice. It wasn’t anger or fear or rejecting Him. It was…like I was asleep but walking around. And when God came to my mind again, I began reading and talking with Him again and at some point I recalled my vacation and what had happened and I realized 6 months had passed and God had never come to my mind during ALL that time. Even what I experienced NEVER came to my mind or was remembered until after that 6 months. It was dumbfounding but it was not something I did, it was God, but I still don’t understand why He did it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And wonder of wonders, I just suddenly understood it. After all these years, I understand it…

 

[PinSeeker]

@PinSeeker: Yes, as Paul ~ not Augustine or Calvin, as they merely relate Paul's words ~ says in Romans 5 and 6, man is either a slave to sin and unrighteousness (all are naturally) or a slave to righteousness (those who have been reborn of the spirit, by the Spirit). There is no "in-between" or "neutral."

Which means no free will.

Maybe to the undiscerning or ignorant, but no. It's not about the will, it's about the heart ~ who/what the person is at the inner core of his person... his very nature. This is what drives the will. Though he could, woodenly speaking, the person will not be untrue to who/what he is.

...we aren't slaves in the sense that we can't choose something else.

Agreed. I'm not suggesting otherwise, and neither is Paul.

If we were, saints could never, ever sin.

See, now here, you are getting into the "now and not yet" of the Gospel. We Christians are saved, but we are also being saved. We have been redeemed and one day will be sinless, but we are not yet.

And unsaved people could never do good.

Anybody can "do good things," but it is not done in faith. So while it may be good or nice or admirable or any number of other things to you and me, and the thing itself good in the eyes of the Lord and be used by Him to accomplish His greater purpose in folks, it is not good in the sense that it is self-justifying and prideful, and sinful.

And of course Calvin said that God ordained everything which also makes free will only an illusion.

Well the Bible says that, so Calvin reiterated it. What you make of it is your own doing (ignorance).

A distinction without a difference.

Willful ignorance. I mean, it's a little different thing, but case in point: you can understand, you just will not. You can open your eyes, you just will not. So it goes. And goes and goes and goes. The astounding thing is that you deny this, and then affirm it, and then deny it again. Just astounding. But so it is.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

In fact, "will not", because they "can not", isn't that right? If they could, they might, but they cannot, so they will not. Isn't that the idea?

No. See above. If you want to use "cannot" in the sense that the person cannot be untrue to himself, will not use his will in contradiction to his heart, then yes, but otherwise, no. And again, we're not just talking about "doing stuff," or "making decisions about stuff." We're talking about a person's nature, the state of his heart, who he is. And really, all of us are who/what we are, and at any given point, we cannot do anything to change that. "To thine own self be true," right? We cannot, in the end, be untrue to ourselves. To become someone different, Someone has to make us that way. Someone has to (using Ezekiel's words) give us a new heart, put within us a new spirit ~ put His Spirit within us.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[BarneyFife]

I suddenly…knew everything, all at once, or saw, or had, everything all at once. Yet…I knew nothing. I knew everything yet knew nothing. Oh that does not make sense, how could it??

Of course, it makes sense! Have you read my signature?

And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. (1 Corinthians 8:2)

Did I ever tell you about the time I saw an angel?