Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[Lifelong_sinner]

Well for one thing it means we can never know if we are saved. For another, it means God is creating people for destruction, and that's not a Christ centered understanding of God. Christ died for all.

you cant know if you are saved. Jesus even said many will say Lord, Lord and He will say to them I never knew you.
Yes, while are made for destruction, that does not mean they dont have a purpose.
And no, Jesus didnt die for everyone. If He had, then everyone would be saved. The opposite of that is true. The majority of mankind will end up in Hell.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I appreciate your honesty!

Why does this doctrine bother me? It denies God's love for His created people. It presents God as someone who created sensate and emotional beings for the purpose that they should suffer. The truth is that God Himself subjected Himself to such suffering so we could avoid that fate.

The God I know offers salvation to all, desiring all be saved, but allowing us choice. True love can only exist when there is choice. Calvinism doesn't allow for real love, freely given.

Much love!

not true. If God loved all, and offered salvation to all, then all would be saved. Jesus’ death was only for the elect.

 

[Renniks]

you cant know if you are saved.

That's not biblical.
The Apostle John, in his first Epistle, explains that he is writing to "you who believe in the Name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."(1 John 5:13)

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

That's not biblical.
The Apostle John, in his first Epistle, explains that he is writing to "you who believe in the Name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."(1 John 5:13)

johns letters were for the elect. If you telling yourself “im saved” and thinking that means you are, you are wrong. Jesus said MANY will claim to be saved yet arent. So how can so many end up being wrong??

 

[Renniks]

johns letters were for the elect. If you telling yourself “im saved” and thinking that means you are, you are wrong. Jesus said MANY will claim to be saved yet arent. So how can so many end up being wrong??

Did you even read what you wrote? How could John's letters go out to only certain people?
Many end up being wrong because they are trusting in their deeds to save them.
The point is, John said we can know, you already said we can't.

 

[PinSeeker]

Bogus argument.

Well, no, but I respect your opinion. "Bogus" is... disingenuous, really. You disagree, at least right now, and that's fine, but you cannot deny the cogency of it. I don't mean to rile you up with this or anything, but, in my opinion (and I am certainly not alone in holding it), the whole dispensational take on Scripture and the pre-tribulational schema are... cogent arguments... but based on misunderstandings (terrible misunderstandings in some cases) of various parts of God's Word.

Just because 1000 is used one other time and is used euphemistically there does not mean it is an allegorical number in Revelation.

Not... "allegorical." Quit with that. Symbolic. Symbolic, but not non-literal... just not woodenly literal. Do a word search of "thousand" in any good concordance (easily done online) and tell me what you find. Sometimes... yes... the context will indicate a hard and fast number of whatever it is. But there are many occurrences throughout the Bible, Old Testament and New, where "thousand" is not a hard and fast number at all but used to symbolize fullness, completeness, a total far beyond a hard one thousand whatever-it-is. Here's a sampling:

• Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations (Deuteronomy 7:9)
• "If one wished to contend with (God), one could not answer Him once in a thousand times." (Job 9:3)

• "For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills." (Psalm 50:10)

• "For a day in your courts is better than a thousand elsewhere." (Psalm 84:10) I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of wickedness.

• "For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night." (Psalm 90:4)

• "He remembers His covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations..." (Psalm 105:8)

• "A thousand shall flee at the threat of one; at the threat of five you shall flee, till you are left like a flagstaff on the top of a mountain, like a signal on a hill." (Isaiah 30:17)

There are places where numbers are used in the Bible and, whatever that number is, it's a hard count, literally that many of what ever it is. But "thousand" is used throughout the Bible in various instances to denote fullness, completeness, all... not just a hard count of 1000.

And I would argue that every occurrence of "thousand" in Revelation ~ every one ~ is not a hard and fast number but symbolic of completeness. Tell me this, Ronald. What do you make of the 144,000 of Revelation 7 (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, verses 1-7) and Revelation 14 (those with the Father's name written on their foreheads in verse 1 and those redeemed from the earth in verse 3)? Do you not believe the 144,000 of these two passages in Revelation ~ John's Revelation, the same one where he speaks of a thousand years in, well, Revelation 20 ~ is the same group of folks that he speaks of in the latter half of Revelation 7 (verses 9-17), the "great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”?

Each instance stands and falls on its own.

Sure.

...there is no warrant for thinking the 6 times in Rev 1000 years is used, it is non-literal.

Oh... yes there is. But again, I respect your opinion. Every one of the six is in Revelation 20

BTW in biblical numerology 7 is the # for completion!

Sure. Completeness. Fullness. All. But only one of them. There are several numbers used to symbolize fullness and completeness in the Bible, and 1000 is another, and in other places, 10, 12, and 3 do, too. As you said, each instance stands and falls on its own. Well... the God's Word never falls, but stands forever, but we agree on that, at least, right?

there are also many literal passages in Rev., unless you think the lake of fire is non literal as well and Gods Judgment is non-literal as well and the 7 letters etc.etc. You have to show cause why this should not be taken literally.
The lake of fire is a symbol of the very literal terrible place where unbelievers will go ~ depart to ~ in the age to come. As you know, Ronald, our God is a consuming fire. They will be immersed, saturated ~ figuratively speaking ~ in God's judgment.

You said you believe in the golden rule of interpretation and toss out the rule in the 1000 years.

I do nothing of the sort.

Well you have a problem then.

Well, you perceive me to "have a problem."

...for whether literal or non literal, Jesus returns before those 1000 years commence.

Ah, no. After they are ended. At the close of the age. Do you not think Jesus is reigning now from heaven? And even with the all the saints who have died the first death?

Unless you toss out the golden rule again and say rev. 20 takes place before rev. 19 return!

LOL! Not "tossing out" anything... So let me expound a little on something I said before, and just focusing for now on Revelation 19 and 20. Remember how I said Revelation is a series of concurrent cycles, each one focusing more and more on Jesus's return? If I didn't or if you don't remember, well, there you go. Yeah, so at the conclusion of Revelation 19, it is the end of one of the cycles, the sixth of seven, actually. Revelation 20 begins another cycle, the seventh, and lasts until the first several verses of Revelation 21. Now getting really specific regarding chapters 19 and 20... ... you should see that Revelation 19:11-21 describes the same event as Revelation 20:7-9.

Okay I'm going to leave it there for the moment. That link I gave you is great. I highly recommend it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Why does this doctrine bother me? It denies God's love for His created people.

Quite the opposite.

It presents God as someone who created sensate and emotional beings for the purpose that they should suffer.

Not at all. This is a terrible misunderstanding of Romans 9:21. He created each one for a purpose, but that purpose was surely not for them to suffer.

The truth is that God Himself subjected Himself to such suffering so we could avoid that fate.

That He did. Greater love as no man than the one who lays his life down for his friends (Jesus, John 15:13).

The God I know offers salvation to all...

Which He does; John is very clear in John 3:16, that, because God so loved the world, He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life....

...desiring all be saved...

...which He does; this is literally what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:4...

...but allowing us choice.

...which He does; it's not that we don't make a choice, or aren't allowed a choice, but only that it doesn't depend on our choice, which is what Paul says in Romans 9:16...

True love can only exist when there is choice.

Well this is off the subject, really (though I get that you don't think so), but true love is unconditional. It's given whether you want it or not. On second thought, I take that back ~ it is very on the subject.

Calvinism doesn't allow for real love, freely given.

Yes, it does. See above.

Grace and peace to you, marks.

 

[Scott Downey]

Speaking of numbers, this one comes to mind in a different context, but still supporting the Calvinist idea of a fixed number of saved gentiles and saved jews. Paul calls it the full number of the gentiles enter the kingdom, which implies that God mercy went from Israel, the Jews out to the gentile world, and at the end when the full number of those ion the gentile nation who will be saved, are saved, God's mercy will return to Israel, what is left of them and save them at the end of the age.
Israel of course in not all of the Jewish people, as it says not all who are of Israel are Israel.

Romans 9:6-8 New King James Version

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

and the mystery of hardening of the jews in part, because some jews did believe, the believing ones are truly of Israel which is why they believed, called as in Isaac was, while the others were children of the devil.

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

 

[Renniks]

which He does; it's not that we don't make a choice, or aren't allowed a choice, but only that it doesn't depend on our choice, which is what Paul says in

Direct contradictions don't bother you?

 

[PinSeeker]

Direct contradictions don't bother you?

They do, and it certainly would if there was one. Another thing merely not depending on something, does not render that 'something' null and void, or that that something is not done or not possible. To think so is, well, not thinking, at least not with any kind of clarity.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Oh... yes there is. But again, I respect your opinion. Every one of the six is in Revelation 20

Well I will await you showing me the biblical neccesity of taking the 1000 years allegorically (noon-literal) as opposed to literal.

 

[amigo de christo]

I would simply like to remind us the of the tiltle of this post and add a few words to it .
Run AWAY from calvinism AND FAST and NEVER LOOK back EITHER . Have a blessed day everyone .

 

[Ronald Nolette]

• Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations (Deuteronomy 7:9)
• "If one wished to contend with (God), one could not answer Him once in a thousand times." (Job 9:3)

• "For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills." (Psalm 50:10)

• "For a day in your courts is better than a thousand elsewhere." (Psalm 84:10) I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of wickedness.

• "For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night." (Psalm 90:4)

• "He remembers His covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations..." (Psalm 105:8)

• "A thousand shall flee at the threat of one; at the threat of five you shall flee, till you are left like a flagstaff on the top of a mountain, like a signal on a hill." (Isaiah 30:17)

Well Psalms are songs and euphemisms abound or idioms!
But Deut. and Is. how do you know these are not literal.

I can show you how most of these are constructed to identify them as metaphors.

Sure. Completeness. Fullness. All. But only one of them. There are several numbers used to symbolize fullness and completeness in the Bible, and 1000 is another, and in other places, 10, 12, and 3 do, too. As you said, each instance stands and falls on its own. Well... the God's Word never falls, but stands forever, but we agree on that, at least, right?

YOu are wrong about the numbers you listed.
10o is human govt.
12 is divine govt.
3 is fulness as divinity.
1000 depending who you look to has multiple meanings
Once again numerology is very subjective and not an absolute!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I would simply like to remind us the of the tiltle of this post and add a few words to it .
Run AWAY from calvinism AND FAST and NEVER LOOK back EITHER . Have a blessed day everyone .

Well I can't speak to anything of Calvinism other than what has been dubbed the five points. And after years of studying and researching both sides (loosely calvinism vs. Armeniaism) I have found that the five points are nearly 100% spot on biblically.

those who believe in the points of old Jacob rely on lots of philosophical and emotional arguments.

 

[Hope For Tomorrow]

I cant post links yet but check out Ralph Yankee Arnold on youtube. He was my pastor a few years ago and really taught a lot about Calvinism and LS. Hope this helps!

 

[Fuddy]

Calvinism = Salvation by luck. It's a cold and sociopathic theology that portrays the God of Life as such a callous monstrosity.

1 Corinthians 13th chapter is a solid exposition of God's character.

 

[Scott Downey]

Calvinism = Salvation by luck. It's a cold and sociopathic theology that portrays the God of Life as such a callous monstrosity.

1 Corinthians 13th chapter is a solid exposition of God's character.

There is absolutely no LUCK in salvation, as salvation is of the LORD.
I would say the opposite is true, if Calvinism is false then, there is no guarantee of salvation for anyone, it is pure LUCK that a person would grow up in a Christian area, or read a bible and decide to believe it. You could even call it Christian Darwinism, survival of the best bible learners.

 

[Renniks]

They do, and it certainly would if there was one. Another thing merely not depending on something, does not render that 'something' null and void, or that that something is not done or not possible. To think so is, well, not thinking, at least not with any kind of clarity.

Grace and peace to you.

So it's possible to be saved no matter who you are?

 

[Renniks]

There is absolutely no LUCK in salvation, as salvation is of the LORD.
I would say the opposite is true, if Calvinism is false then, there is no guarantee of salvation for anyone, it is pure LUCK that a person would grow up in a Christian area, or read a bible and decide to believe it. You could even call it Christian Darwinism, survival of the best bible learners.

Faith comes from hearing.
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ."

 

[Fuddy]

He gives each man a measure of faith, because He does not desire that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance, even the wicked.

And no, he doesn't have a "secret" will, he doesn't jerk people around like that, he does not deceive and he doesn't profer false hope.
Jesus called out in a loud voice, in varied public venues, "Come to Me". Everyone could hear it. It was meant for all, if you're human, you're invited. Anything less than that would be hideously irresponsible on his part, and God most certainly takes full responsibility for the good work of his own hands.