Lots of people get water baptized more than once. Anyway, still don’t understand but at least you tried, so thanks.
Run AWAY from Calvinism!
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Lots of people get water baptized more than once. Anyway, still don’t understand but at least you tried, so thanks.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Shortly after God healed me, a special young lady half my age (who coincidentally shares your name, and would later name me the godfather of her third son) pointed out in our Bible study that "faith" and "trust" were just about synonymous. That clicked with me, because I realized then as now that my issues had as their root cause a lack of trust in God. Your use of the terms interchangeably has always resonated with me, and I have endeavored to use "trust" in place of "faith" in my postings. In particular, I do this to accentuate the difference between "faith" and "intellectual belief". However, I was hinting that "faith" and "faithfulness" encompasses not only trust but also belief and loyalty, as the book-definition Johann provided so states. Though one might argue that "loyalty" is merely an appropriate response to "trust".Yes, I would say it’s interchangeable. So I wondered what Lambano meant when he said faith is more than just trust. I was calling bull, but in a nice way.I hope he would love me enough to call bull on me too if he thought I was saying something I had not thought out to come to that might tangle me for no good reason.
You may now call "Shenanigans!" on me.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Lifelong_sinner
Well-Known Member
sorry about the confusion. I guess this just means you wont ever have to worry about wearing head dress to church now.
Ever watch the movie: " The adjustment bureau"?
Sometimes I wonder if open theism is closer to the truth than Calvinism.
Your version of God irresistibly choosing some for no reason sure doesn't sound like what I read in scripture. Maybe read something outside of a few verses picked from the center of Romans 9...
Ah, okay, very good! I’m glad I asked and very glad you answered.
I do though, think faith is still just trust, or maybe more accurately I guess it is to believe and trust what God has said. ALL that God has said. Yet that’s not how we begin. We begin shaky and with very flip flopping trust. We begin with trusting Him in things we can in no way take control of (like raising our dead body or crossing a sea on dry land) but trusting and doing what the world says about gathering more than enough for the day. And there the struggle ensues. There we wander around in the desert.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Romans 9-11 is Paul's angst about God intentionally hardening His people's hearts in order to drive the Gospel out to the Gentile world. That brings into question God's own covenant faithfulness. If God can un-elect His own people (see Exodus 6:7 for what Election REALLY meant), then whose salvation is safe?
Be very careful about applying the principles of this special case universally.
Be very careful about applying the principles of this special case universally.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
Yeah, and since God's desire is that all should come to repentance, you need to get cracking, my friend!
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I have come to the conclusion that hard core Calviniism as described by @Lifelong_sinner in your quote, have no idea what it means when scripture declares unequivocally, God is love. The entire arbitrariness of such a contrived plan of salvation makes a mockery of love and merely continues the satanic abuse against the character of God which began in the garden, was greatly exacerbated by the Papacy, from which Calvin (if it was true that Calvin actually invented that particular version of predestination) hadn't fully extricated himself completely from. (That was an extraordinarily complicated sentence... Hope it made sense). Can't blame Calvin entirely... No more than we can blame Luther for his faults. The concept that the church is free to use civil government to enforce religious laws and persecute dissenters is still alive and very well. It's inevitable that if someone believes their God is an arbitrary tyrant, they will be the same. Calvin ruling over Geneva a case in point.
There is a new member named…bed bugs treatment…? Okay then!
Oh, he posted a video. Maybe he’s looking for business.
Oh, he posted a video. Maybe he’s looking for business.
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reformed1689
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The type of receiving of the Spirit you are referring to and regeneration are NOT the same thing.
The "obedience of trust" is implied in Jesus' command that we believe. "Casting all you care upon Him" implies that trust as an ongoing expression of our choice.
I've found that the obedience of trust is the core obedience we need, and if we have that, all else comes from God.
Much love!
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
While they were waiting at the foot of the mountain, a father had brought to them his son, to be delivered from a dumb spirit that tormented him. Authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, had been conferred on the disciples when Jesus sent out the twelve to preach through Galilee. As they went forth strong in faith, the evil spirits had obeyed their word. Now in the name of Christ they commanded the torturing spirit to leave his victim; but the demon only mocked them by a fresh display of his power. The disciples, unable to account for their defeat, felt that they were bringing dishonor upon themselves and their Master. And in the crowd there were scribes who made the most of this opportunity to humiliate them. Pressing around the disciples, they plied them with questions, seeking to prove that they and their Master were deceivers. Here, the rabbis triumphantly declared, was an evil spirit that neither the disciples nor Christ Himself could conquer. The people were inclined to side with the scribes, and a feeling of contempt and scorn pervaded the crowd.
But suddenly the accusations ceased. Jesus and the three disciples were seen approaching, and with a quick revulsion of feeling the people turned to meet them. The night of communion with the heavenly glory had left its trace upon the Saviour and His companions. Upon their countenances was a light that awed the beholders. The scribes drew back in fear, while the people welcomed Jesus.
A hush had fallen upon the entire company. Now the afflicted father made his way through the crowd, and falling at the feet of Jesus, poured out the story of his trouble and disappointment. DA 427.5
“Master,” he said, “I have brought unto Thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit; and wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: ... and I spake to Thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.”
Jesus looked about Him upon the awe-stricken multitude, the caviling scribes, the perplexed disciples. He read the unbelief in every heart; and in a voice filled with sorrow He exclaimed, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?” Then He bade the distressed father, “Bring thy son hither.”
The boy was brought, and as the Saviour's eyes fell upon him, the evil spirit cast him to the ground in convulsions of agony. He lay wallowing and foaming, rending the air with unearthly shrieks.
Again the Prince of life and the prince of the powers of darkness had met on the field of battle,—Christ in fulfillment of His mission to “preach deliverance to the captives, ... to set at liberty them that are bruised” (Luke 4:18), Satan seeking to hold his victim under his control. Angels of light and the hosts of evil angels, unseen, were pressing near to behold the conflict. For a moment, Jesus permitted the evil spirit to display his power, that the beholders might comprehend the deliverance about to be wrought.
The multitude looked on with bated breath, the father in an agony of hope and fear. Jesus asked, “How long is it ago since this came unto him?” The father told the story of long years of suffering, and then, as if he could endure no more, exclaimed, “If Thou canst do anything, have compassion on us, and help us.” “If Thou canst!” Even now the father questioned the power of Christ.
Jesus answers, “If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.” There is no lack of power on the part of Christ; the healing of the son depends upon the father's faith. With a burst of tears, realizing his own weakness, the father casts himself upon Christ's mercy, with the cry, “Lord, I believe; help Thou mine unbelief.”
(To Be Continued)
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Jesus turns to the suffering one, and says, “Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.” There is a cry, an agonized struggle. The demon, in passing, seems about to rend the life from his victim. Then the boy lies motionless, and apparently lifeless. The multitude whisper, “He is dead.” But Jesus takes him by the hand, and lifting him up, presents him, in perfect soundness of mind and body, to his father. Father and son praise the name of their Deliverer. The multitude are “amazed at the mighty power of God,” while the scribes, defeated and crestfallen, turn sullenly away.
“If Thou canst do anything, have compassion on us, and help us.” How many a sin-burdened soul has echoed that prayer. And to all, the pitying Saviour's answer is, “If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.” It is faith that connects us with heaven, and brings us strength for coping with the powers of darkness. In Christ, God has provided means for subduing every sinful trait, and resisting every temptation, however strong. But many feel that they lack faith, and therefore they remain away from Christ. Let these souls, in their helpless unworthiness, cast themselves upon the mercy of their compassionate Saviour. Look not to self, but to Christ. He who healed the sick and cast out demons when He walked among men is the same mighty Redeemer today. Faith comes by the word of God. Then grasp His promise, “Him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37. Cast yourself at His feet with the cry, “Lord, I believe; help Thou mine unbelief.” You can never perish while you do this—never.
In a brief space of time the favored disciples have beheld the extreme of glory and of humiliation. They have seen humanity as transfigured into the image of God, and as debased into the likeness of Satan. From the mountain where He has talked with the heavenly messengers, and has been proclaimed the Son of God by the voice from the radiant glory, they have seen Jesus descend to meet that most distressing and revolting spectacle, the maniac boy, with distorted countenance, gnashing his teeth in spasms of agony that no human power could relieve. And this mighty Redeemer, who but a few hours before stood glorified before His wondering disciples, stoops to lift the victim of Satan from the earth where he is wallowing, and in health of mind and body restores him to his father and his home
It was an object lesson of redemption,—the Divine One from the Father's glory stooping to save the lost. It represented also the disciples’ mission. Not alone upon the mountaintop with Jesus, in hours of spiritual illumination, is the life of Christ's servants to be spent. There is work for them down in the plain. Souls whom Satan has enslaved are waiting for the word of faith and prayer to set them free.
The nine disciples were yet pondering upon the bitter fact of their own failure; and when Jesus was once more alone with them, they questioned, “Why could not we cast him out?” Jesus answered them, “Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.” Their unbelief, that shut them out from deeper sympathy with Christ, and the carelessness with which they regarded the sacred work committed to them, had caused their failure in the conflict with the powers of darkness.
In order to succeed in such a conflict they must come to the work in a different spirit. Their faith must be strengthened by fervent prayer and fasting, and humiliation of heart. They must be emptied of self, and be filled with the Spirit and power of God. Earnest, persevering supplication to God in faith—faith that leads to entire dependence upon God, and unreserved consecration to His work—can alone avail to bring men the Holy Spirit's aid in the battle against principalities and powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world, and wicked spirits in high places.
“If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed,” said Jesus, “ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove.” Though the grain of mustard seed is so small, it contains that same mysterious life principle which produces growth in the loftiest tree. When the mustard seed is cast into the ground, the tiny germ lays hold of every element that God has provided for its nutriment, and it speedily develops a sturdy growth. If you have faith like this, you will lay hold upon God's word, and upon all the helpful agencies He has appointed. Thus your faith will strengthen, and will bring to your aid the power of heaven. The obstacles that are piled by Satan across your path, though apparently as insurmountable as the eternal hills, shall disappear before the demand of faith. “Nothing shall be impossible unto you.”
Desire Of Ages—EGW—pp. 426-431.
“If Thou canst do anything, have compassion on us, and help us.” How many a sin-burdened soul has echoed that prayer. And to all, the pitying Saviour's answer is, “If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.” It is faith that connects us with heaven, and brings us strength for coping with the powers of darkness. In Christ, God has provided means for subduing every sinful trait, and resisting every temptation, however strong. But many feel that they lack faith, and therefore they remain away from Christ. Let these souls, in their helpless unworthiness, cast themselves upon the mercy of their compassionate Saviour. Look not to self, but to Christ. He who healed the sick and cast out demons when He walked among men is the same mighty Redeemer today. Faith comes by the word of God. Then grasp His promise, “Him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37. Cast yourself at His feet with the cry, “Lord, I believe; help Thou mine unbelief.” You can never perish while you do this—never.
In a brief space of time the favored disciples have beheld the extreme of glory and of humiliation. They have seen humanity as transfigured into the image of God, and as debased into the likeness of Satan. From the mountain where He has talked with the heavenly messengers, and has been proclaimed the Son of God by the voice from the radiant glory, they have seen Jesus descend to meet that most distressing and revolting spectacle, the maniac boy, with distorted countenance, gnashing his teeth in spasms of agony that no human power could relieve. And this mighty Redeemer, who but a few hours before stood glorified before His wondering disciples, stoops to lift the victim of Satan from the earth where he is wallowing, and in health of mind and body restores him to his father and his home
It was an object lesson of redemption,—the Divine One from the Father's glory stooping to save the lost. It represented also the disciples’ mission. Not alone upon the mountaintop with Jesus, in hours of spiritual illumination, is the life of Christ's servants to be spent. There is work for them down in the plain. Souls whom Satan has enslaved are waiting for the word of faith and prayer to set them free.
The nine disciples were yet pondering upon the bitter fact of their own failure; and when Jesus was once more alone with them, they questioned, “Why could not we cast him out?” Jesus answered them, “Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.” Their unbelief, that shut them out from deeper sympathy with Christ, and the carelessness with which they regarded the sacred work committed to them, had caused their failure in the conflict with the powers of darkness.
In order to succeed in such a conflict they must come to the work in a different spirit. Their faith must be strengthened by fervent prayer and fasting, and humiliation of heart. They must be emptied of self, and be filled with the Spirit and power of God. Earnest, persevering supplication to God in faith—faith that leads to entire dependence upon God, and unreserved consecration to His work—can alone avail to bring men the Holy Spirit's aid in the battle against principalities and powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world, and wicked spirits in high places.
“If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed,” said Jesus, “ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove.” Though the grain of mustard seed is so small, it contains that same mysterious life principle which produces growth in the loftiest tree. When the mustard seed is cast into the ground, the tiny germ lays hold of every element that God has provided for its nutriment, and it speedily develops a sturdy growth. If you have faith like this, you will lay hold upon God's word, and upon all the helpful agencies He has appointed. Thus your faith will strengthen, and will bring to your aid the power of heaven. The obstacles that are piled by Satan across your path, though apparently as insurmountable as the eternal hills, shall disappear before the demand of faith. “Nothing shall be impossible unto you.”
Desire Of Ages—EGW—pp. 426-431.
Belief, that agreement with a set of facts, and faith, that reliance on those things believed.
Much love!
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I just yanked this from a PM to my friend @Johann
"Faith is believing and acting as if the Word is true in the most concrete sense, and that it will accomplish that which it says under the creative power contained right within itself."
It'a adapted from a book called "Lessons On Faith."
That sounds good to me! Living life assuming the Bible is actually true! It's a scary thing for some, it was for me, but now it's freedom!
Much love!
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Isn't it interesting? We've hijacked the thread, and no one seems to care!
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