amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
I have no idea what Armeniaism is . Probably just another ism . I just stick in the bible , learn and grow .
Run AWAY from Calvinism!
- Thread starter Johann
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well to converse with many and understand what they are saying, it is helpful to learn the nuances of beliefs in Christianity.
The five points of Calvinism were born as a result of the five points of Jacob Arminius at the council of Dort long after Calvin was dead!
All the "isms" are just encapsulated beliefs held by believers and the defenses for those beliefs. So if one leans towards Arminianism,they are the opposite of the five points of calvinism.
That's someone who was born in Armenia.
An Arminian on the other hand, follows the teaching of Jacob Arminias more or less.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Well , what is arminamism . I just cling to the bible . The truth is the CC , calvin and the false too can have truths .
But it dont mean they are not false . My advice is we learn that bible , not from nor through the lens of men and isms
but rather we simply like small children trust in GOD and read it for ourselves . YOU and anyone else
would be amazed at how many and how fast the ISMS would dissappear . But do feel free
to explain to me what arminaism is . cause on that , i have no clue . I will happily tell you IF i hold to that view .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
and what are his teachings . My friend i sat in no church . very rare did i go to a church .
GOD just put me into the bible with a love for truth .
SO if you dont mind can you sum up what HE believed .
Yup, human isms. Everyone has their take on what is true and what isn't. We have a tendency to build up a rigid belief system without tempering that tendency with the fact that we only see in part.
God is omniscient.
Calvin, not so much.
God is omniscient.
Calvin, not so much.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And yet if you have been a faithful Christian you have learned the bible from men as well!
Well if you Calvinism here are what caused the Calvinists to write the five points. these are the points of Jacob Arminius in a nutshell.
1. Adam when he fell did not spiritually die but was seriously wounded but still retained an ability to fellowship with God the T of Calvin refutes this.
2. Man has to do things in order to be saved! He cannot come "Just As I am" The U of Calvin refutes this.
3.Jesus atoned for all men's sins (He is the propitiation for all men but not the atonement) The L of Calvin refutes this
4. Men can resist the saving grace of God --Free Will. The I of Calvin refutes this.
5. Men can lose their salvation and walk away from Jesus. IOW they can become un-born again! The P of Calvin refutes this.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Yeah i would not follow arminius . Folks can teach some outright scary things .
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
So you aret a 2-3-4 or 5 point Calvinist! It is just a way of identifying what you believe on these five subjects brought up! I would not ever be a Calvinist in a church setting, but I do believe the five points are spot on biblically.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
I believe what the bible says .
That it is by grace alone through faith in Christ that saves a soul .
I believe that if one confess his name yet walks in darkness and is not a hearer and a doer of the word , THAT IS NOT A TRUE CONVERSION .
And i believe it is good , as did the apostels to remind folks , YOU BETTER continue in HIM to the end .
I believe if one comes out from amongst us , they were never truly of us .
But i believe we must always remind the church that we must continue in His goodness , Continue in THE FAITH of That gospel
and dont be moved away from that .
John even said , IF what ye have LEARNED from the BEGINNING shall ABIDE IN YOU , THEN YE SHALL CONTINUE IN HIM .
THUS i believe its direly needed to remind the church about all things and all warnings the original apostels did .
I believe if the WORD IF appears we ought to take HEED to what follows that IF and not try and twist it into something else
to support some mans teachings .
Instead we should take every warning and every reminder as solid truth .
I believe There is but one way unto GOD and that IS IN JESUS CHRIST .
I believe i am saved not by my own righteousness , nor works that i did or have done , but because JESUS DID ALL that was
required for my salvation .
I believe that we must believe from the heart that GOD has rose HIM from the dead
and confess HIM by mouth in order to be saved . SO I FLAT OUT REFUSE THIS FALSE END TIME ALL INCLUSIVE MANY PATH GOSPEL LIE .
GOOD WORKS wont save a soul , False love cant either . ONLY BELIEVE THOU IN WHOM GOD DID SEND .
I believe if one follows any other religion it wont save them but rather will condmen them to the pits of fire .
I believe , thus that by telling folks , athiests , muslims , buddists and you name it , That if they just have love
and do good works they know GOD and are saved , IS A FAT OL LIE FROM SATAN .
FOR i believe in the LOVE that cometh from GOD and that LOVE POINTS TO THE ONLY NAME THAT CAN SAVE .
I KNOW that GOD drew me to Christ , I KNOW HE put that desire into my heart and that HE changed my heart .
THUS as i said , YE are saved by GRACE ALONE and not that of yourselves , IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD .
IF you have any other questions feel free to ask . I have nothing to hide , and if i be in error , I BELIEVE GOD WILL CONVICT ME
HOWEVER since we are on that note , I beleive we better hit the pages of that bible and make sure our calling and election .
THAT SIMPLY MEANS , WE BETTER KNOW ITS THAT JESUS we follow and not some other version men created that cannot save a soul .
I've said at least twice now to stop with the "allegorical" stuff, Ronald. That descriptive has no relevance. But I get the unwillingness to get off of it, because it is a necessary Arminian talking point.
And, yet again, the symbolism does, without question, point to things quite literal ~ very real things. The thousand years of Revelation 20 points to the very real span of time between the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost to the point of Christ's return, which is "the final hour," "these last days," the time in which God brings into His Israel the fullness of the Gentiles and then removes the partial hardening that has come upon it ~ which we cannot know the full length of, because, as Jesus said, know one knows the time, the day, or the hour of His return.
Grace and peace to you.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well all this makes you what would be called a three pointer in the calvin/arminius debate.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Or instead of it being a symbolic time span that means completeness based on man made biblical numerology (which 1000 is not completeion BTW) It could mean 1000 years! Do you really Satan is in the abyss since Pentecost?
It's not "based on man made numerology"... You never answered my question to you concerning the one hundred forty-four thousand of Revelation 7 and 14, and it's similarity to the thousand years of Revelation 20.
You also, by the way, haven't responded to my assertion that the events of Revelation 19:11-21 and the events described in Revelation 20:7-10 are both visions of the same event (rather than all the events of Revelation 20 coming after those of all of Revelation 19). To elaborate on that just a bit, Revelation 17-19 as a whole is a concurrent vision with and consisting of the same events as Revelation 20:1-10. Notice the similarity here:
"...the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur." (Revelation 19:19-20)
"...the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
We can discuss that, too, if you like.
Think what you want, my friend. Yes, this discussion is between you and me, but there are a lot of great theologians through the centuries and millennia with whom you're disagreeing, here.
Yes, it... could... but it doesn't, and history bears that out.
Yes... well since Christ came, actually. Satan is "bound" and "in an abyss" in that he is no longer ~ for now, at least, because he will be loosed for a short time near the end ~ able to deceive the nations. As I pointed out before, Christ Jesus Himself said:
"...if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." (Matthew 12:28-29)
Jesus is talking there about the same thing that we see in Revelation 20:1-3, where John says he saw, in his dream:
"...an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended."
Satan is bound; he is not able to deceive the nations at present, now and since His coming. Before this, the nations were bound, as Satan was able to deceive them. But Jesus unbound them, as we see in His reading of Isaiah 61 when He began His public ministry, reading (in Luke 4:18-19) the following:
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor."
He also read from Isaiah 9; Matthew quotes Him in Matthew 4:15-16 as follows:
"The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles ~ the people dwelling in darkness have seen a great light, and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death, on them a light has dawned."
Whereupon He said:
"Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing," (Luke 4:21) and “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17)
Not necessarily in that order, as we're not sure, but it is what it is. But yes, Jesus opened the Gospel up to Gentiles. No longer was it just for physical Israel, but for God's Israel, which includes both Jew and Gentile. And in so doing, He "bound (Satan) for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended" (Revelation 20:2-3). Read Revelation 17 very carefully ~ you might need to do that several times; I did ~ and pray about it, and see if the Lord doesn't show you the same thing, that a.) Revelation 17:1 through Revelation 19:10, and b.) Revelation 20:1-6, while different visions, are visions of the same thing... and particularly that Revelation 17:8 is a pre-telling and foreshadowing of what will eventually happen in Revelation 19:11-21 in this cycle and Revelation 20:7-9 in the next;
"(t)he beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction."
You will see it, I think... or maybe not, but it's there.
Grace and peace to you, Ronald.
Last edited:
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Not only would satan be in the abyss , but also during the thousand years the FP and the beast are burning alive in the lake of fire .
Thus there would be ZERO deception during that time . Have you ever seen that . ME NEITHER .
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I apologize, I missed it. but the 144,000 are 144,000 literal Jews ! !2,000 from each of the tribes listed. There is nothing to demand it be non literal or symbolic or allegorical of something else.
Well you can assert all you want. But that is not a literal, normal, usual, grammatical way of reading those Scriptures! The events of Rev. 19: 11-21 and events of Rev. 20:7-10 are quantitatively and qualitatively different and there end results are vastly different!
REv. 19 is Jesus physical return to defeat the enemy and establish his millenial kingdom on earth. Teh events of Rev 20 are Satan loosed to deceive the nations one more time and God sends fire down and the great white throne commences. In between these two passages is Rev. 20:6 which shows After Jesus' return, He raises the dead in the first resurrection and they live again and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Do you know where the Apostle Paul is hanging out these days? I sure would go there to sit at his feet for a whil;e.
Name some and cite their work on this.
This statement of yours is laughable! Based on all the events that happen right before the 1,000 years commences! Unless of course you take a more covenantal interpretation in stead of a literal interpretation! But then I have a question for you? If we should not take God at His Word herew, why should I tak you at your word in explaining it?
So you disagree with Paul and Peter and John who all write Satan is present on planet earth deceiving people. I am stunned you actually could believe this!
- well the gospel had not gone out yet. Jesus was still offering the promised kingdom to Israel only at this point. And the gospel was to the Jew only until Peter went to the Centurions house and opened the doore for the gospel to go to the Gentiles. Jesus at this point was presenting the kingdom of God as prophesied to Israel alone. though He knew He would be rejected and the parentheses of God dealing with Israel a s antion for the ingathering of the gentiles was soon to happen.Not at this point. the gospel was still
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I find it unbelievable people ouside of the wierd cults (though this qualifies as very weird) would rewrite the Scriptures this badly!
Peter, John, and Paul all wrote Satan was still active on earth deceiving people. Well wheh you are taught to see what is written and then think it means something else it gets easy to keep rewriting Scripture from what God wrote.
Even teh symbols are defined in His Word. One just has to be a student of Scripture to learn that!
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
exactly . Now let all who name the name of Christ FEAST on those bibles daily .
Okay, no, it's not. Jehovah's Witnesses believe it's literally 144,000 people, but it's not. In Revelation 7, the 144,000 of verses 1-7 are the same group of folks as the innumerable multitude of verses 8-17.
Yes, the full text of Revelation 7 does demand that. Some folks don't think so, and you're apparently one of them. But again, I respect your opinion.
Nope. I think you're not looking at it objectively. Give it some thought. Or not; that's up to you, of course. Again, the similarity here is striking:
"...the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur." (Revelation 19:19-20)
"...the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
No, Jesus's millennial reign is in heaven, where He is seated at the right hand of God, and spiritually, we are seated with him, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:6. Over the course of the millennium, folks like you and me are coming to Him, are being "raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." This is what Revelation 20:4-6 is describing.
As to what you say about Revelation 19 ~ and I am assuming you mean specifically 19:11-21 ~ Revelation 20:7-9 the very same event.
Hm. No, Revelation 20 does not go back and forth in time like that. Here's the Revelation 20 timeline of events:
Revelation 1-3a (up through "so that he might not deceive the nations any longer")
This corresponds to Jesus's birth; Revelation 20:3b ("after that he must be released for a little while" is a foreshadowing of what will happen at the end of the age, just before Jesus's return.
Revelation 20:4-6
This is the time period that we are in right now, that has been going on since the coming of the Holy Spirit. Since then, people have been coming to life ~ have been being born again of the Holy Spirit and raised up in Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly realms and joining with Him in His millennial reign. The millennium is a picture of the present reign of Christ and of the saints in heaven. The first resurrection is the life in Christ that starts with spiritual new birth (Romans 6:8-11; Colossians 3:1-4; Ephesians 2:6). Satan has been bound through the triumph of Christ in his crucifixion and resurrection (John 12:31; Col. 2:15).
A side note here: All Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in Revelation 19:11-21. If 20:1-6 were to represent events later than 19:11-21, there would be no one left for Satan to deceive in 20:3. Just that fact refutes the notion that the events of Revelation 20 follow those of Revelation 19.
Revelation 20:7-10
Satan is loosed and coming out to deceive the nations once more (as foreshadowed in the last part of Revelation 20:3). Fire comes down from heaven and consumes them. As you know, our God is a consuming fire. This is Jesus's return and the final battle, in which Satan is defeated for good. The final battle here is the same as the final battle in Revelation 16:14,16, 17:14, and Revelation 19:11-21. Similar language from Ezekiel 38-39 is used in the various descriptions of the final battle. The judgment of Satan in 20:10 parallels the judgments against Babylon (17-18) and against the Beast and the False Prophet (19:11-21). These enemies of God all receive their doom, and the visions depicting their doom are thematically rather than chronologically arranged.
Revelation 20:11-15
Jesus, having completed this victory, is seated (meaning the battle is done, among other things) on this "great white throne" of judgment. So God appears in a scene of final judgment. This judgment follows the 1000 years of 20:2 and 7. The general, physical resurrection has occurred, because all are standing before the throne (v.12-13) and subsequently judged according to what they had done. This is what Jesus is talking about in John 5:28-29, when He said, "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." This is a universal final judgment at the second coming, and is depicted by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46.
He's with Jesus, of course.
Well, I think one day you'll be seated with him at the marriage supper.
Do some research. It's not hard.
See above. The events you are referring to do not happen "right before the 1,000 years commence," but are rather concurrent with those those "thousand years."
The two are surely not mutually exclusive, as you make them out to be.
I'm not suggesting not taking God at His Word in any shape, form, or fashion, but instead quite the opposite. Understanding it correctly is the issue.
Not at all, Ronald. Satan's ability to deceive individuals is an entirely thing than his (now defunct) ability to deceive the nations.
Hm. Well, maybe now you realize you had an erroneous idea of what I believe and are no longer "stunned."
That is in direct opposition to what the angel of the Lord said to the shepherds in Luke 2 at Jesus's birth:
"...behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord."
And also in direct opposition to what Jesus read (from Isaiah 61) and said at the beginning of His public ministry:
“'The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor...' Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
Grace and peace to you, Ronald.
Last edited:
Similar threads
