Sabatarianism

[Naomi25]

Naomi25, why did you "Like" post #67? Do you not know that Hebrew 7:12 does not refer to the entire law, but only the law concerning what tribe the high priest could come from?

Heb 7:11-28 is all about comparing Christ to Melchizedek, and how, if the 'old' system was working, another High Priest of Melchizedek's order would not have been necessary.


This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. For it is witnessed of him,

“You are a priest forever,
after the order of Melchizedek.”

For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. -Hebrews 7:15–19


What's not to like about any of that?

 

[Naomi25]

Sorry my sis, but may I butt into your conversation here? I see this addressed a great deal in forums whenever the law is mentioned or brought up... Now I'm not saying this pertains to you personally, but I wonder how many say these exact things as you have said above, because they themselves struggle in that area and think everyone else should or does as well.
The issue I think lies in the problem of a lack of faith. Christians under appreciate what God is capable of in truly converting His children. While there are certain areas where I do war against the flesh, I have firm faith that in Gods good time the victory over sin will be complete that such struggling will for all intents and purposes, be over, although we will remain mindful of the grace wherein we walk. Your example above is a classic one.
Faith in God's power and willingness to deliver us from all sin can take us beyond that point where we struggle if we see things we do not possess, such as our neighbour coming into possession of a brand new Mustang. While we may admire the new car, it is absolutely possible that in that and every other situation that may similarly arise, we may genuinely and instantly be glad and joyful on behalf of our neighbour for the blessing he had received.
This same pure and holy response is attainable for everyone in every situation whatever the commandment, including the Sabbath commandment where nearl y all non Sabbath observers automatically think it impossible to observe the Sabbath without some sense of self satisfaction and self glorifying or "work" toward impressing God.

Hey brakelite...I never mind when you 'butt in'!
This is a tricky area, because as you say, everyone is different, and everyone is at a different state in their walk. However, it is my belief that in any person, at any stage, we can look at this verse and know it to be true:

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. -1 John 1:8–10

Now, do I hope...nay...expect in Christ that in my older years I will be able to look back on sins I have, with the Spirit's help, put to death and no longer struggle with? Yes. Do I hope that the number of sins I struggle with will be less than what I do now? Yes. But do I think that anyone this side of death will be without sin? No. The bible does not give us leave to expect that. The perfect, the imperishable, the immortal....the one that can inherit the Kingdom...will not come to us until Christ returns.

Now, to try and clear the air a little further in this regard...you say that 'nearly all non Sabbath observers automatically think it impossible to observe the Sabbath without some sense of self satisfaction and self glorifying or 'work' towards impressing God'.
If I may address that briefly. I don't think it is impossible to head to Church on Saturday faithfully and for it to be automatically 'work'. No more than I do about our own, faithful Sunday attendance to worship and fellowship in the same way.
The problem, as I see it, comes when SDA begin to insist upon it as a 'rule'. Yes, a 'commandment', even. The problem is twofold: one, I do not see the NT in any way supporting the continuing Sabbath observance; not in the face of who and what Christ is. Second, the very nature of grace versus the law puts insisting upon a rule or commandment that didn't come out of Christ's own mouth in regards to the new covenant worrisome.
I and realise this is where some 'automatic misunderstanding' often comes in again. Please understand I am not, at all, condoning a life lived in hedonistic sin just because we are under grace. No...sin is still to be fought against and put to death. But the NT is clear; we do this by focusing on Christ. The new covenant was a promise to enscribe his commands upon our hearts...to give us new hearts that sort after him. The old covenant that was about trying to meet external rules passed away. It did it's job in pointing out mans sin and inability to meet those requirements. It pointed the way to Christ. The new covenant was about giving new life to a person; stiring their hearts towards God. A person indwelt by the Spirit doesn't check off external rules in a desperate attempt to make his god appeased. He follows his God in love. Christ tells us that the 'greatest of these (faith, hope and love) is love'...and it's love that leads a person after the interal commandments of God and puts sin to death.
Christ is the fulfilment of the OT; of the OT type and shadow. In him we find the comfort, rest and renewal that the Sabbath was made for. In him we find the sacrifical lamb who died for us; the temple we can approach God through. He is prophet, priest and king. He is our Lord and Saviour and IN him, we need nothing else...we follow our shepherd.

 

[brakelite]

This is a tricky area, because as you say, everyone is different, and everyone is at a different state in their walk. However, it is my belief that in any person, at any stage, we can look at this verse and know it to be true:

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. -1 John 1:8–10

Now, do I hope...nay...expect in Christ that in my older years I will be able to look back on sins I have, with the Spirit's help, put to death and no longer struggle with? Yes. Do I hope that the number of sins I struggle with will be less than what I do now? Yes. But do I think that anyone this side of death will be without sin? No. The bible does not give us leave to expect that. The perfect, the imperishable, the immortal....the one that can inherit the Kingdom...will not come to us until Christ returns.

Tricky, yes. What does scripture say? That He is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us. Did Jesus come to set us free from sin or not? Now if we believe the counsel of John, that upon confessing sin He cleanses us from all unrighteousness, does that mean God can do even more than that? How much more is up to that power of God within, working to prepare us for the company of holy angels and a holy God. Without that holiness, how shall we stand?. What are we willing to give up? Are we willing to die to self...completely? I get saddened by Christians saying that we can never overcome sin. As if the power of the flesh is greater than the power of God. I am convinced that God can do anything...if we let Him. If we want Him to. What I am not saying however, is that we can ever attain to the holiness of God. No, we shall ever need the blood of Christ to cover our fleshly shortcomings...but all known sin? Absolutely...we can indeed overcome. Unknown sin? We can ask God to reveal even that to us. Which brings us neatly into....

Now, to try and clear the air a little further in this regard...you say that 'nearly all non Sabbath observers automatically think it impossible to observe the Sabbath without some sense of self satisfaction and self glorifying or 'work' towards impressing God'.
If I may address that briefly. I don't think it is impossible to head to Church on Saturday faithfully and for it to be automatically 'work'. No more than I do about our own, faithful Sunday attendance to worship and fellowship in the same way.

Sure, there are 'workers' everywhere. But what I witness frequently, no, more than frequently, is that being used as an accusation from non-Sabbath keepers against Sabbath keepers in order to excuse their non-compliance. As if by obeying, they automatically become 'workers' like the rest of us.

The problem, as I see it, comes when SDA begin to insist upon it as a 'rule'. Yes, a 'commandment', even.

Now here I must disagree with you. No Seventh Day Adventist ever made Sabbath keeping a commandment. God did. Let us get that absolutely straight. It was not an SDA (in the sense of membership of a congregation although God is a Sabbath keeper and is in expectation of the second advent, thus in that sense, a SDA) who stood on Mt Sinai and wrote those tablets with his finger.

I do not see the NT in any way supporting the continuing Sabbath observance; not in the face of who and what Christ is.

Yet the apostles and the early church did. Even the Gentiles. And they were closer to Christ in their understanding of and what he is than we are 2000 years later. Were they wrong? Did any of the apostles or disciples teach what you are advocating? If not, where are you getting your ideas from?

But the NT is clear; we do this by focusing on Christ. The new covenant was a promise to enscribe his commands upon our hearts...to give us new hearts that sort after him. The old covenant that was about trying to meet external rules passed away. It did it's job in pointing out mans sin and inability to meet those requirements. It pointed the way to Christ.

Totally agree with the above. The law was to lead us to recognise our need of a Saviour...one who was to take not just the burden of guilt, but to empower us to live in accordance to His requirements. To live in obedience. And we cannot do that in our own strength, or by our own effort. Surrender to the Spirit of God is our only way to live sanctified and holy lives. Now I feel I must add a caveat to that...has everyone now reached a position where they no longer need the law to point them to Christ? Christians may feel through their awakened conscience that they may know when they are doing wrong and doing right without recourse to the law. And in regards to general terms of morality, I would agree. Non-Christians not so much. They still need the law. What then do we tell them when they see the fourth commandment? What becomes of simple basic Royal authority in the name of God when through our interpretations and subjective reasoning we set aside a commandment? And on what basis do we support our teaching when we also tell them that our faith and practice must be based on scripture? Is the following enough....

Christ is the fulfilment of the OT; of the OT type and shadow.

The question is, "is the weekly Sabbath a type or shadow?" What were shadows needed for? What were they shadows of? Were they not established...was not the need of a Saviour paramount because of sin in humanity? When did sin come about? In the garden, certainly, but how long after creation...how old was Eve when they fell; or maybe "old" didn't exist before the fall...but how long after creation did they sin? We don't know...could have been days...could have been decades. But what we do know is that the need for a Saviour came about after the Sabbath was well established. Before sin. Before the fall. Thus at the time that 7th day was blessed, made holy, and set aside for humanity as a day of rest, there was no need of shadows, or types, or any other symbol or act that demonstrated any future salvation or need for redemption. Therefore the Sabbath...the 7th day of every week...is still holy. Now God reminds us in the commandment, to remember the Sabbath to keep it holy. So the commandment didn't make it holy...our obedience to the commandment doesn't make it holy...it is already holy and God requires us to be mindful that we do not do anything that may remove that holiness as far as we are individually concerned in regards that 7th day. This is not SDAs commanding this. And unless you or anyone can point to a specific declaration from God that annuls, removes, or cancels and takes away that holiness and sanctification from that day, then I would suggest that in the absence of such a declaration, the reminder to keep it that way still stands as well.
Sure, this isn't the normal 'moral' absolute that the other commandments depict. But it is based on revelation...it is based on God's authoritative requirement, that because He has made a day for man, then we ought to respect that and be grateful and surrendered sufficiently in love and willingness to obey Him in all things, and receive it as the gift He intended.
Nothing to do with the old covenant. Established 1000s of years before Sinai. Created long before any Jews ever lived or were even needed. The Sabbath still stands as a memorial of creation...and a reminder of the God Who made all things...including the Sabbath...for His glory and honour.
So even Christians it seems, in light of the 4th commandment, still need that law to point them to Christ...the Lord still of the Sabbath day.

 

[gadar perets]

Please consider WHY he came. You seem to be missing large chunks of that just so you can tick off 'worship on a particular day'. That seems rather sad to me. And quite contrary to all the NT has to tell us.

I know exactly why he came, which is why I received him as my Master and Savior. Consider what he didn’t come to do. He didn’t come to start a new religion in which its adherents abolish YHWH’s laws and trample all over that which is holy.

Okay...let me try and put it this way: we know that every type and shadow in the OT pointed to Christ, right?

Wrong. Some did and some didn’t. Shavuot, Yom Teruah, and Sukkot do not. Animal sacrifices, including the Passover lamb, did.

And at this place in time, this side of the cross, it is wrong to celebrate passover as if it were only in memberance of Israels deliverance from Eygpt. Instead, as Christians, we recognize and praise the true passover lamb: Christ.

We teach about Messiah being the true Passover Lamb through celebrating the Passover, not by abolishing it. Passover involves more than just the sacrifice. You choose to neglect everything else about Passover and only concentrate on the Lamb. Then you trample all over the Feast of Unleavened Bread even though Paul said to keep it. You even trample all over his true resurrection day so you could keep your man-made Easter. (I assume you celebrate Easter).

Because we know that everything in the OT pointed towards Christ.
Let me ask you then; if we know that Christ is the true revelation of ALL types and shadows, even if the particular event of that type has not yet been fulfilled in his return, we still know it WILL happen, so it it not then equal foolishness to be celebrating the shadow still when we have knowledge of the truth and the actual? Christ may not have returned and set up his 'millennial kingdom' (debatable if that happens only when he returns), but we know that the feasts, and the types and shadows points to him and him alone. To continue on in OT expectation, like he hasn't come at all, is, to my mind, to live like a modern day Jew...denying the Messiah. And to listen to all the NT has to say about 'the Sabbath', we cannot ignore that something new and better is here in Christ.

Everything you wrote here is false because your foundational belief that “everything in the OT pointed towards Christ” is false.

 

[gadar perets]

No, grace does not abolish law. But the NT is very clear: if you try and live by the law, you better get it perfect.
The fact is, only one man EVER got it perfect; Christ Jesus.
When we try and live a life by law, ALL we get is legalism which leads to the road the Pharisees walked; we know how that went down with God.
When we walk with grace, we walk with the understanding that we can never be perfect like Christ. We will never be able to keep all the laws. We will ALWAYS need grace and forgiveness. And thus it is out of love, gratitude and awe that we look towards Christ in our walk, and the more we do that, the more our lives naturally bend towards him, becoming more like his and less like sin. Because when our eyes are upon Christ we naturally hate sin as he does.
But that does not come from the law, from the observance of it. It comes from loving Christ and loving what he does: his word and what is righteous.

There is a big difference between “living by the law” and “living in obedience to the law”. I don’t live by the law. I live by Messiah Yeshua who is “the life”. Now that I have life through him, I obey him and his Father out of love for them. You say you hate sin through Christ, but you continue in sin through breaking YHWH’s laws.

You say we will never be able to keep all the laws. Is not stealing too difficult to keep? No. Is not bearing false witness, not murdering, not making graven images, not moving your neighbors boundary markers, not having sex with animals, etc., too difficult to keep? No. Neither is the Sabbath for those who have their eyes on Yeshua.

Let's forget for a moment that Christ is the point of everything. He is the true everything, which would also mean Sabbath. But, we can also surmize from scripture that we are to find our true, indeed our only real rest, in him, when we come spiritually to him and have our inner man reborn:

Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest,’”
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said,
“They shall not enter my rest.”
Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
-Hebrews 4:1–10

Is it coincidence that the Sabbath and 'entering my rest' is mentioned in the same passage? Or...what about the fact that clearly the Israelites didn't find it...that sort of 'rest'...when no doubt they were 'keeping the Sabbath'. What is the author then talking about? Clearly he is speaking of finding that rest...that 'Sabbath type' of rest, IN God himself, in a way Abraham had, and in a way everyone who truly places their faith and belief in Christ does.

The original account from which Hebrews 4:1-11 is taken is found in Numbers 14:22-24, 28-30, and Deuteronomy 1:30-40. In both passages it was the "land" (of Canaan) that was being withheld because of unbelief. The children of Israel were on their wilderness journey to the "promised land," which was a type of the "rest" to come. Joshua brought them into that land or the typical "rest" (Josh 1:13-15; 21:44; 22:4), yet the Almighty again spoke through David concerning this greater rest. In Psalm 95:11, David uses the phrase "my rest" instead of "the land" as in the original promise. Why? Because "the land" was only a type of the future rest to come when true believers enter into the true promised land, the "heavenly country" that the patriarchs of old saw from afar (Heb 11:13-16).

We are currently on our wilderness journey as well. We are heading for the heavenly country promised us. Just as the Israelites continued keeping the Sabbath rest throughout their wilderness journey, so, too, must we continue to keep the Sabbath rest. In fact, the Israelites continued to keep the Sabbath even after entering the typical promised land of Canaan. We, too, will continue in the Sabbath rest as prophesied by Isaiah (66:22,23) even after the new heaven and new earth come.

If the common Christian view of Heb 4:10 is correct, that the Sabbath is abolished because we have entered the true rest, then, to be consistent, it must also be true that all work is abolished since we have ceased from our own works. In other words, if the physical rest is done away with, then the physical labor should also be done away with. However, since believers continue to do physical labors like farming, construction work, etc., they should also continue to rest from such labor as it is written. Additionally, the Sabbath rest is commanded for the sake of animals as well. Is it now permissible for farmers to work their animals seven days a week? Do animals somehow enter into the true rest as well?

Hebrews 4:11 talks about laboring to enter into that rest. It is not something we automatically receive upon accepting Yeshua as our Savior except by faith. That rest will become a reality upon our resurrection unto eternal life. That is why we see the saints of Revelation 14:12,13 laboring right up until death. It is only after death that the ultimate rest can literally begin. Note, also, that those saints "keep the commandments of God" (KJV), among which is the Sabbath.

We certainly can find rest for our souls in Messiah (Matthew 11:28,29), but he does not give our bodies rest, nor does he give animals rest. That kind of rest is only available through the Sabbath rest. Jeremiah 6:16 reads, "Thus saith YHWH, 'Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.' But they said, 'We will not walk therein.' " The "old paths" and the "good way" that provides a "rest for the soul" includes the keeping of YHWH's Sabbaths. Notice the similar wording found in Isaiah 58:12,13. The rest we have in Yeshua is only a foretaste of the rest to come at his second coming when we will be dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son in the glorious "heavenly country".

Deuteronomy 5:15 reads, "And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that YHWH thy Elohim brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore YHWH thy Elohim commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day." It is then said that this verse shows, "the very type and shadow of our deliverance from sin and bondage into the glorious rest of Christ our Sabbath by faith." This is true. However, notice the keeping of the Sabbath rest followed the Israelite redemption from slavery and bondage. How much more should we keep the Sabbath with joy overflowing after our greater redemption from sin and death? Why? Because every time we keep the Sabbath holy; we remember and proclaim who it is that provided this great deliverance for us (Deut 5:15); we remember and proclaim who it is that sanctifies us (Ex 31:13); we remember and proclaim who it is that created us and all things (Ex 20:11); and we delight in both the Sabbath and YHWH Himself, and honor YHWH by doing His will and good pleasure (Is 58:13,14). The Sabbath is truly holy, sanctified, blessed, delightful, and honorable.

 

[gadar perets]

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. -Colossians 2:16–17

I’m pretty sure I addressed this already. “Substance” does not belong in any English translation. The Greek word means “body”. The context refers to “the Body of Messiah” (Body of Christ), all true believers.

I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.” -Matthew 12:6–8

The temple and the Sabbath are two different issues. YHWH also said “to obey is better than sacrifice” (1 Samuel 15:22).

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. -Hebrews 8:13

If you are going to use this to justify the Sabbath being obsolete, then the two greatest commandments must also be obsolete. Since that is not true, then your position is false.

Who are you to pass judgment

on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. -Romans 14:4–5

First, the word "alike" is in italics in the KJV because it is not in the Greek. There is nothing wrong with esteeming every day, after all, YHWH made them all. If we choose to worship Him seven days a week, so be it and halleluYah! However, that does not change the fact that as we worship Him every day we must also rest from labor on one day, the Sabbath. It is a mistake to read the Sabbath into this verse. Nowhere is the Sabbath mentioned. Nor can we read any of YHWH's annual sabbaths or feast days into this verse. There were many other "days" that the Jews highly esteemed besides the Sabbath and feasts. For example, most Jews at that time fasted twice a week (Luke 18:12 and Talmudic writings). The Jews also kept fast days throughout the year as mentioned in Zech 8:19. Then there was the Feast of Purim (Esther 9:28), and the Feast of Dedication or Hanukkah (John 10:22).

The Jewish converts would have probably continued esteeming these days whereas the Gentile converts would probably not, especially since they were not commanded by YHWH to be kept. However, all men knew the Sabbath was commanded and so there was no question about its observance as seen in such verses as Acts 18:4 and Acts 13:42-44; 14:1.

Even if you do not see it as a 'salvation winner', you still see it as a necessity, a rule, a requirement. And sadly, in a very real way, that actually makes a person's salvation 'second rate' if they don't keep the Sabbath. You are, friend, judging me based on a day or Sabbath.
That is unscriptural.

Yes, the Sabbath is a requirement, a rule, a necessity. So is not committing adultery, or murdering, or lying, and on and on.

Yes, I am judging you. Believers are required to judge those within the Body of Messiah so that sin does not corrupt the entire Body. YHWH judges those outside the Body (1 Corinthians 5:12-13).

But here's the thing: Christ will never contradict The Father.

By saying Yeshua teaches us to no longer keep the Sabbath holy is one of the most egregious contradictions you can cause between the Father and the Son. You might as well say we can also now murder people.

So, my point is this: If Christ comes and teaches something different about the Sabbath than the 10, we take the progressive revelation from God, above the old. We take the updated info over the old. It makes no sense to send ourselves back to a chapter one understanding when we've just finished the book.

The problem is, Messiah did NOT teach differently about the Sabbath. It is Christian misunderstandings of his teachings that causes the imagined differences. He kept it holy by his example. He taught us to do good on that day. He taught us he is Lord of that day. My Lord is the Lord of that day which still exists. He can’t be Lord of a day that doesn’t exist. You said you did not understand this in another post. To clarify, you say the Sabbath no longer exists. How, then, can Yeshua be Lord of it? Or is he no longer Lord of it in NT times? Has your “progressive revelation” removed his Lordship over the Sabbath?

 

[gadar perets]

My point being: if you INSIST that the NT supports the keeping of the Saturday Sabbath....how about you show it?

That is what I have been doing in every reply to you.

My...that's convenient, isn't it?
The problem with that is: it makes zero sense. "Let no one judge you in regards to a... Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the 'body (church)' belongs to Christ."

No one is to judge us about festivals or days because they're shadows of things to come BUT the church belongs to Christ.

Perhaps that would make a little sense if it said AND the church belongs to Christ.

No...the reason it's translated that way is because to use 'the body...the church' makes the passage nonsensical. However, if something is formerly a shadow, and is now made 'body' or 'reality' or 'substance' in Christ....which also fits every other theological understanding about Christ throughout OT and NT...THEN it makes sense.

It makes no sense because you do not understand my view. “Let no man judge you … but the Body of Messiah”. Only believers can judge other believers. Those outside of the Body cannot dictate to us how we keep those things mention in Colossians 2:16.

Wait....you include the dietary laws and the feast days?!
How's about this....New Testament verses that prove it?
Because here's the skinny: I can find NT verses that tell me I am under grace, not law. I can find NT verses that tell me I have freedom to worship on any day, not just Saturday. I can find NT verses telling me the POINT of the Sabbath was Christ all along. And I most certainly can find NT verses telling me that dietary laws and feasts are not something I am bound to.
So...if you want to have a conversation with any shred of credibility, you have to have it rest on something more than what the OT says. AND it has to go hand in hand with what I've just mentioned the NT says. Because if you cannot show, persuaisively, that your NT verses either show mine to be mis-read or wrong...there IS no conversation.

You can find NT verses telling you those things based on your misinterpretation of them. They do not say what you teach they say. The dietary laws and feast days are part of YHWH’s Torah. Torah is what is written on New Covenant hearts and minds.

But aren't you, again, missing the point? The point Christ was making was not "the Pharisees are going way overboard, you guys need to narrow down your check list"...it was that he wanted their hearts, not their adherance to rules, no matter what, or how many, those rules where. Because let's face it, you are still claiming that SOME rules are required. You might say it's not a requirement of salvation, but the moment you tack it on after salvation, you're making it a requirement to KEEP it...which would be something to boast in, no?

Obeying (adhering to) YHWH and Yeshua’s commandments are how we show our love for them. We do not obey to be saved. We obey as a fruit of salvation by grace through faith.

Doesn't Paul tell us:

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. -Galatians 1:6–7

Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? -Galatians 3:2–3

As Christians we strive to live LIKE Christ, in RESPONSE to salvation. But it cannot be a rule, a requirement we meet. Because if it is, and we achieve it (which right there is a problem, as we cannot, that's why Christ came), we then have something to boast in and by 'perfected by the flesh' in.

The issue Paul was dealing with in Galatia was seeking to be justified by the law. I do not seek such. I am already justified (made righteous) by faith. That faith produces works of obedience to the Father and Son’s commandments for which all believers are ordained to walk in (Ephesians 2:10). We were not ordained to trample on His commandments.

Do you want to know why I KNOW I am clean? Because none of it rests upon my work, or my failure to DO or NOT DO anything...even keep the Sabbath, should it turn out I have been mistaken.
Everything, my salvation, my keeping IN the faith, my growing closer to Christ every day...that is held by one and one alone...Christ. It is in HIS strength and perfection...his being and his redemptive work on the cross, that my sins are forgiven. And his work is not lacking at all. To say that I've left that smudge there, that there is something left of my own making that Christ's sacrifice cannot cover, is not only defeating your claim that it's not linked to salvational issues, but you are, in fact, saying that Christ's work and being is NOT sufficient to cover all my sins.
And that is simply not true and not biblical.

Here is Paul to the Corinthian believers;

2Co 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.​

Sin needs to be repented of. Yeshua’s blood does not automatically cleanse us. His blood and work is most definitely able to cover our sins, but every time we sin as a believer, we still need to confess/repent, then receive the cleansing.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

 

[gadar perets]

Heb 7:11-28 is all about comparing Christ to Melchizedek, and how, if the 'old' system was working, another High Priest of Melchizedek's order would not have been necessary.


This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. For it is witnessed of him,

“You are a priest forever,
after the order of Melchizedek.”

For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. -Hebrews 7:15–19


What's not to like about any of that?

The verses themselves are likable. The way he falsely applies them is NOT to be liked.

 

[gadar perets]

Second, the very nature of grace versus the law puts insisting upon a rule or commandment that didn't come out of Christ's own mouth in regards to the new covenant worrisome.

Do you find tithing worrisome? How about moving your neighbors boundary marker, bestiality, a husband having sex with his menstruating wife, or sex with a sibling? Messiah never mentioned any of these commandments/rules that only carnal Christians would dare break.

I and realise this is where some 'automatic misunderstanding' often comes in again. Please understand I am not, at all, condoning a life lived in hedonistic sin just because we are under grace. No...sin is still to be fought against and put to death. But the NT is clear; we do this by focusing on Christ.

It is because I was totaling focusing on Messiah that YHWH revealed His Sabbath to me. When He did so, I did not seek ways to avoid keeping it. I simply embraced it out of love for Him.

The new covenant was about giving new life to a person; stiring their hearts towards God. A person indwelt by the Spirit doesn't check off external rules in a desperate attempt to make his god appeased. He follows his God in love. Christ tells us that the 'greatest of these (faith, hope and love) is love'...and it's love that leads a person after the interal commandments of God and puts sin to death.

"Appeasing" God is your distorted view of a Sabbath keepers motivation. The same way your love for Him has led you "after the internal commandments of God", my love for Him has led me to His Sabbath.

 

[brakelite]

Second, the very nature of grace versus the law puts insisting upon a rule or commandment that didn't come out of Christ's own mouth in regards to the new covenant worrisome.

It was Jesus who established the Sabbath in the first place as Creator yes? So it was Jesus who made that specific day holy, sanctified, and blessed. How many times does God need to repeat Himself until a commandment is established, or His authority unquestioned? Surely once is enough? But God knew our stubbornness, and our short memories. Which is why for over 1000 years He had an ongoing battle with His people to try and get them to remember to keep holy the Sabbath day. Not because they were Jews.. But because the day was holy! In the end the entire nation was taken into captivity because of their disobedience, and their inattentiveness to Sabbath keeping was at the top of the list of complaints that God had against them. When they returned from Babylon, Israel was so intent on not allowing such a sad state of affairs to be repeated that they added numerous extraneous rules and regulations that made the Sabbath a burden and impossible to enjoy and receive the blessing intended for them.
When Messiah came, part of His mission was to remove those burdens and reestablish the law as a protection and blessing rather than a curse and a burden. You speak of His lack of speaking in regard the Sabbath. I disagree. He spoke a great deal concerning the Sabbath, especially by His actions, proving through His healing the sick on the Sabbath the true intent and purpose for the day. But never did He remove, cancel, abrogate, or take away the blessing reserved for those who observe it, but to the contrary, reaffirmed it, and the early church continued that... if they didn't continue in Sabbath observance you can bet every last dollar the Pharisees and lawyers would have been all over them like a bad rash as they did with circumcision... But like Paul testified...
KJV Acts 24
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

And not one complaint from the news against the early church centred around the Sabbath.

 

[tabletalk]

It was Jesus who established the Sabbath in the first place as Creator yes? So it was Jesus who made that specific day holy, sanctified, and blessed. How many times does God need to repeat Himself until a commandment is established, or His authority unquestioned? Surely once is enough? But God knew our stubbornness, and our short memories. Which is why for over 1000 years He had an ongoing battle with His people to try and get them to remember to keep holy the Sabbath day. Not because they were Jews.. But because the day was holy! In the end the entire nation was taken into captivity because of their disobedience, and their inattentiveness to Sabbath keeping was at the top of the list of complaints that God had against them. When they returned from Babylon, Israel was so intent on not allowing such a sad state of affairs to be repeated that they added numerous extraneous rules and regulations that made the Sabbath a burden and impossible to enjoy and receive the blessing intended for them.
When Messiah came, part of His mission was to remove those burdens and reestablish the law as a protection and blessing rather than a curse and a burden. You speak of His lack of speaking in regard the Sabbath. I disagree. He spoke a great deal concerning the Sabbath, especially by His actions, proving through His healing the sick on the Sabbath the true intent and purpose for the day. But never did He remove, cancel, abrogate, or take away the blessing reserved for those who observe it, but to the contrary, reaffirmed it, and the early church continued that... if they didn't continue in Sabbath observance you can bet every last dollar the Pharisees and lawyers would have been all over them like a bad rash as they did with circumcision... But like Paul testified...
KJV Acts 24
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

And not one complaint from the news against the early church centred around the Sabbath.

You said: "In the end the entire nation was taken into captivity because of their disobedience, and their inattentiveness to Sabbath keeping was at the top of the list of complaints that God had against them."
I think Idolatry was, and is, at the top of the list.
Christians are forgiven for not worshipping God perfectly (Sunday worship?), but worshipping the wrong god equals eternal death.

 

[brakelite]

You said: "In the end the entire nation was taken into captivity because of their disobedience, and their inattentiveness to Sabbath keeping was at the top of the list of complaints that God had against them."
I think Idolatry was, and is, at the top of the list.
Christians are forgiven for not worshipping God perfectly (Sunday worship?), but worshipping the wrong god equals eternal death.

It was a long list, and there were several at the top. Idolatry came I think as a result of their profanng the Sabbath. But we are forgiven idolatry also if we repent...
KJV Ezekiel 22
26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
Not discerning between the holy and the profane... Sabbath and Sunday?


.

 

[gadar perets]

It was Jesus who established the Sabbath in the first place as Creator yes? So it was Jesus who made that specific day holy, sanctified, and blessed.

You do such a great job of teaching the truth about the Sabbath, but I totally disagree with you about this.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days YHWH made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore YHWH blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
​

YHWH is Yeshua's Father (Psalms 2:7). Therefore, Yeshua's Father established the Sabbath, made it holy, sanctified it, and blessed it.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

...the while no one of you will as much as mention WHY for Israel and WHY for Christian, the Israel of God from all nations and ages, might "REMEMBER the Sabbath by its sanctity".

...while everyone of you on this forum EVEN IF AGAINST YOUR WILL AND OWN OPINION IS WELL AWARE AND CONVINCED OF.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

You can find NT verses telling you those things based on your misinterpretation of them. They do not say what you teach they say. The dietary laws and feast days are part of YHWH’s Torah. Torah is what is written on New Covenant hearts and minds.

The Torah does not teach what you say it teaches. The dietary laws and feast days HAD BEEN part of YHWH’s Torah and Torah is what WAS written on New Covenant hearts and minds OF THEIR TIMES, "God spake by the PROPHETS (speakers AHEAD) unto the fathers in time PAST", who looked and believed FORWARD TO THE COMING CHRIST IN THE FLESH.
While <New Covenant hearts and minds> look BACK to and believe in "THE SON GOD SPAKE BY IN THESE LAST DAYS / TIMES" who accomplished, finished and fulfilled and THEREBY AND THEREFORE in Own Person Was-And-Is-Become the Law-Word of God and in his Own Self IS the ALL-IN-ALL ENHANCEMENT of Torah.

Else you should remain a Jew and not hypocritically as you do claim Christianship. God's People of old as much as you could wish to, BELIEVED IN JESUS CHRIST THEIR LORD GOD AND SAVIOUR! Their faith was reckoned them for RIGHTEOUSNESS : THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The law was to lead us to recognise our need of a Saviour.

Yes! only what the Law did for OT believers; no more, no less. So when Christians believe retrospectively whereas OT believers believed prospectively there ONLY remains the incalculable ADVANTAGE the after Jesus was on earth believers have, which is Christ Jesus COME WHO WILL COME ONCE AGAIN. Those poor fellows in yonder times, I think, did not know or believe that! They could not; how would they? So that the eye of faith that "sees Jesus" or had "seen Jesus" once, has seen enough and all things in fact at once.

 

[gadar perets]

The Torah does not teach what you say it teaches. The dietary laws and feast days HAD BEEN part of YHWH’s Torah and Torah is what WAS written on New Covenant hearts and minds OF THEIR TIMES, "God spake by the PROPHETS (speakers AHEAD) unto the fathers in time PAST", who looked and believed FORWARD TO THE COMING CHRIST IN THE FLESH.
While <New Covenant hearts and minds> look BACK to and believe in "THE SON GOD SPAKE BY IN THESE LAST DAYS / TIMES" who accomplished, finished and fulfilled and THEREBY AND THEREFORE in Own Person Was-And-Is-Become the Law-Word of God and in his Own Self IS the ALL-IN-ALL ENHANCEMENT of Torah.

The Torah did not begin to be written internally until AFTER Yeshua shed his blood.

Else you should remain a Jew and not hypocritically as you do claim Christianship. God's People of old as much as you could wish to, BELIEVED IN JESUS CHRIST THEIR LORD GOD AND SAVIOUR! Their faith was reckoned them for RIGHTEOUSNESS : THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

I don't claim to be a Jew or a Christian. The phrase "LORD GOD" can ONLY pertain to Yeshua's Father.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I don't claim to be a Jew or a Christian. The phrase "LORD GOD" can ONLY pertain to Yeshua's Father.

That's to be expected from one claiming he is not a Jew or a Christian. Why should one mind what he has to say if it's not even worth his own believing for him?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

There is a big difference between “living by the law” and “living in obedience to the law”. I don’t live by the law. I live by Messiah Yeshua who is “the life”. Now that I have life through him, I obey him and his Father out of love for them. You say you hate sin through Christ, but you continue in sin through breaking YHWH’s laws.

You say we will never be able to keep all the laws. Is not stealing too difficult to keep? No. Is not bearing false witness, not murdering, not making graven images, not moving your neighbors boundary markers, not having sex with animals, etc., too difficult to keep? No. Neither is the Sabbath for those who have their eyes on Yeshua.


The original account from which Hebrews 4:1-11 is taken is found in Numbers 14:22-24, 28-30, and Deuteronomy 1:30-40. In both passages it was the "land" (of Canaan) that was being withheld because of unbelief. The children of Israel were on their wilderness journey to the "promised land," which was a type of the "rest" to come. Joshua brought them into that land or the typical "rest" (Josh 1:13-15; 21:44; 22:4), yet the Almighty again spoke through David concerning this greater rest. In Psalm 95:11, David uses the phrase "my rest" instead of "the land" as in the original promise. Why? Because "the land" was only a type of the future rest to come when true believers enter into the true promised land, the "heavenly country" that the patriarchs of old saw from afar (Heb 11:13-16).

We are currently on our wilderness journey as well. We are heading for the heavenly country promised us. Just as the Israelites continued keeping the Sabbath rest throughout their wilderness journey, so, too, must we continue to keep the Sabbath rest. In fact, the Israelites continued to keep the Sabbath even after entering the typical promised land of Canaan. We, too, will continue in the Sabbath rest as prophesied by Isaiah (66:22,23) even after the new heaven and new earth come.

If the common Christian view of Heb 4:10 is correct, that the Sabbath is abolished because we have entered the true rest, then, to be consistent, it must also be true that all work is abolished since we have ceased from our own works. In other words, if the physical rest is done away with, then the physical labor should also be done away with. However, since believers continue to do physical labors like farming, construction work, etc., they should also continue to rest from such labor as it is written. Additionally, the Sabbath rest is commanded for the sake of animals as well. Is it now permissible for farmers to work their animals seven days a week? Do animals somehow enter into the true rest as well?

Hebrews 4:11 talks about laboring to enter into that rest. It is not something we automatically receive upon accepting Yeshua as our Savior except by faith. That rest will become a reality upon our resurrection unto eternal life. That is why we see the saints of Revelation 14:12,13 laboring right up until death. It is only after death that the ultimate rest can literally begin. Note, also, that those saints "keep the commandments of God" (KJV), among which is the Sabbath.

We certainly can find rest for our souls in Messiah (Matthew 11:28,29), but he does not give our bodies rest, nor does he give animals rest. That kind of rest is only available through the Sabbath rest. Jeremiah 6:16 reads, "Thus saith YHWH, 'Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.' But they said, 'We will not walk therein.' " The "old paths" and the "good way" that provides a "rest for the soul" includes the keeping of YHWH's Sabbaths. Notice the similar wording found in Isaiah 58:12,13. The rest we have in Yeshua is only a foretaste of the rest to come at his second coming when we will be dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son in the glorious "heavenly country".

Deuteronomy 5:15 reads, "And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that YHWH thy Elohim brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore YHWH thy Elohim commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day." It is then said that this verse shows, "the very type and shadow of our deliverance from sin and bondage into the glorious rest of Christ our Sabbath by faith." This is true. However, notice the keeping of the Sabbath rest followed the Israelite redemption from slavery and bondage. How much more should we keep the Sabbath with joy overflowing after our greater redemption from sin and death? Why? Because every time we keep the Sabbath holy; we remember and proclaim who it is that provided this great deliverance for us (Deut 5:15); we remember and proclaim who it is that sanctifies us (Ex 31:13); we remember and proclaim who it is that created us and all things (Ex 20:11); and we delight in both the Sabbath and YHWH Himself, and honor YHWH by doing His will and good pleasure (Is 58:13,14). The Sabbath is truly holy, sanctified, blessed, delightful, and honorable.

No, you have seen nothing of True Righteousness through Jesus Christ yet. Here you presented the proof that for you, the Law and the works of the Law is the Principle Rule of your salvation. Meanwhile you do more harm to the 'Sabbath-truth' than all the Sunday lies and liars together.

 

[gadar perets]

That's to be expected from one claiming he is not a Jew or a Christian. Why should one mind what he has to say if it's not even worth his own believing for him?

I am in Messiah Yeshua and he in me. If you need to put me in your little box, so be it. The only box I put myself in is the Body of Messiah.