Oh wow. Here is the most astonishing confirmation of the twisted logic you are attempting to foist on us. Jesus broke the Sabbath law and the Jews didn't???ewq1938 said:
Sabbath braker?
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he Jewish people were blessed with something unique and very special. It was something which God intended they share with gentiles, for God always intended that all peoples should know Him. The pagan nations around Israel had their fertility rites, their initiations, their icons, their statues and idols. But Israel had a day. This day set them apart. But rather than share the Sabbath with others, Israel repeatedly ignored, neglected, or polluted it by introducing pagan practices into their religion. By the time of Christ they had moved to the other extreme and burdened the Sabbath with so many added laws and regulations the day had become a curse rather than a blessing. Jesus came to reveal, among other things, how the Sabbath was intended to be kept and to free it from the encumbrances of legalism.
To heal on the Sabbath was scandalous to the rabbis. They accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath,(and sadly many misguided Christians agree with them) and because Jesus had such huge support and influence, it could very well have been partly through fear that the whole nation would begin ‘desecrating’ the Sabbath and of the subsequent judgments of God that the leaders of the nation sought to kill Him, “But a certain one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all nor do ye take account that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.” John 11:49,50, and that finally led to His crucifixion.
Jesus had numerous opportunities to speak of how the Sabbath was going to be changed or done away with. But rather than do this, all His debates and arguments with the rabbis were focused on how the Sabbath was to be kept. He defied the human traditions and yes, Jesus did break the Sabbath.... He broke it free from the rigid man-made Talmudic guidelines that made it a burden, and a rigid formality.
Jeshua ha Maschiak did not break Torah.
To heal on the Sabbath was scandalous to the rabbis. They accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath,(and sadly many misguided Christians agree with them) and because Jesus had such huge support and influence, it could very well have been partly through fear that the whole nation would begin ‘desecrating’ the Sabbath and of the subsequent judgments of God that the leaders of the nation sought to kill Him, “But a certain one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all nor do ye take account that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.” John 11:49,50, and that finally led to His crucifixion.
Jesus had numerous opportunities to speak of how the Sabbath was going to be changed or done away with. But rather than do this, all His debates and arguments with the rabbis were focused on how the Sabbath was to be kept. He defied the human traditions and yes, Jesus did break the Sabbath.... He broke it free from the rigid man-made Talmudic guidelines that made it a burden, and a rigid formality.
Jeshua ha Maschiak did not break Torah.
ewq1938
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It is misguided Christians that fail to understand that Christ DID break the Sabbath. It is literally impossible to deny since the event is detailed very clearly in scripture along with Christ giving the reasons why He did, and why it was not wrong.brakelite said:
Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Verse 5 and 8 are key to understanding this.
So your contention that because there was a 'higher moral imperative' in the disciples eating of the grain, and that the healing of a cripple for example is of a 'higher moral imperative' than simply following the law, therefore it remains as a transgression against the law, but no guilt attached, correct?
ewq1938
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Of course, which is the same defense Christ used in this verse:brakelite said:
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
However Christ had an additional reason why he could break a law without guilt:
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
He is the Lord of the Sabbath and can break it if he chooses to. He is greater than the temple and in fact greater than the Sabbath laws! The Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day!
Anyone who tries to raise the Sabbath above Christ is in severe error!
The most foolish argument I can imagine is to say that Jesus Christ...the God Who wrote the Ten Commandments in the first place...could possibly break one of them.
Do you not realize sin is the transgression of the law?
The very minute and second that Jesus were to break the law, He would no longer be a fit sacrifice for sin, because He would have become a sinner.
Even my little eight year old grand daughter can figure out...if you break a rule, then you are bad!
It's not rocket science, boys and girls!
Do you not realize sin is the transgression of the law?
The very minute and second that Jesus were to break the law, He would no longer be a fit sacrifice for sin, because He would have become a sinner.
Even my little eight year old grand daughter can figure out...if you break a rule, then you are bad!
It's not rocket science, boys and girls!
ewq1938
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The Barrd said:
That ignores the fact that a law can be broken without guilt. You ignore the entire passage in favor of your personal interpretation. You speak of this not being rocket science but the better comparison is that this isn't even on the level of basic mathematics or ABC's.
Jesus has to be spotless....completely without sin. Not a single blot on His record...not even a sinful thought to ever cross His Mind.
The very minute and second that He allows Himself to break the Laws that He wrote HImself with His Own Hand, He becomes a sinner, and disqualifies Himself from being the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world.
There is no breaking the commandments of God with no guilt. Such a notion is beyond ludicrous.
Why would anyone even think such a thing?
As I said, even a little second grade girl can figure out that if you break a rule, you have been naughty. It shouldn't be that difficult for an adult.
Yes, and she also knows her ABC's and she can count to twenty in Spanish....
In fact, she has read the Bartholomew Cubbins story....and One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue Fish...all by herself!
The very minute and second that He allows Himself to break the Laws that He wrote HImself with His Own Hand, He becomes a sinner, and disqualifies Himself from being the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world.
There is no breaking the commandments of God with no guilt. Such a notion is beyond ludicrous.
Why would anyone even think such a thing?
As I said, even a little second grade girl can figure out that if you break a rule, you have been naughty. It shouldn't be that difficult for an adult.
Yes, and she also knows her ABC's and she can count to twenty in Spanish....
In fact, she has read the Bartholomew Cubbins story....and One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue Fish...all by herself!
Matthew 12:10-12 “And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the Sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is LAWFUL to do well on the Sabbath days.” You claim Jesus broke the law.
Jesus disagrees with you.
Note the following.
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Doing well according to the highest authority on the subject is included in the law...even described as a weightier matter of the law. And you still contend that that same higher authority broke the law by doing well on it!!!! You are making no sense.
Jesus disagrees with you.
Note the following.
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Doing well according to the highest authority on the subject is included in the law...even described as a weightier matter of the law. And you still contend that that same higher authority broke the law by doing well on it!!!! You are making no sense.
Certainly Jesus would know the law better than the Jews who accused Him.
They also claimed that He broke the law by claiming to be the Son of God.
Obviously, they were mistaken....
They also claimed that He broke the law by claiming to be the Son of God.
Obviously, they were mistaken....
Note...Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath days? that they might accuse him....the lawyers clearly thought like you, or you think like the lawyers, that it is breaking the law to do good.
Jesus disagreed with them, you agree with them.
Sorry to burst your theological bubble but I side with Jesus. And the priests and their "breaking of the Sabbath "? Jesus places that within the same category of 'weightier matters of the law'....justice, mercy, faith, love.
There is no solace for you there in citing those verses as support for your erroneous opinion. I can see your agenda however. If it is alright for Jesus to break the Sabbath law by over-riding it with a "greater moral imperative" (than obeying God) , then that gives you the same prerogative in breaking the 7th commandment for example by cannoodling with your neighbors wife because of a "greater moral imperative"....love.
Jesus disagreed with them, you agree with them.
Sorry to burst your theological bubble but I side with Jesus. And the priests and their "breaking of the Sabbath "? Jesus places that within the same category of 'weightier matters of the law'....justice, mercy, faith, love.
There is no solace for you there in citing those verses as support for your erroneous opinion. I can see your agenda however. If it is alright for Jesus to break the Sabbath law by over-riding it with a "greater moral imperative" (than obeying God) , then that gives you the same prerogative in breaking the 7th commandment for example by cannoodling with your neighbors wife because of a "greater moral imperative"....love.
What defense?ewq1938 said:
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Notice, Jesus says He is "guiltless"?
This sounds more like a condemnation than a defense!
ewq1938
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He knew it could be broken under certain circumstances. They, and many even today, do not understand this.The Barrd said:
Lying is against the law but they didn't realize he spoke the truth.
They aren't the only ones.
ewq1938
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The Barrd said:
lol, his defense was in part to use examples of others breaking the law yet they were without guilt. I tire of repeating this over and over. Read and learn this from the scriptures or continue in ignorance. Your choice.
They also didn't realize that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath...although Jesus evidently knew that they had been doing good for even their animals all along. So, who was really guilty, here?ewq1938 said:
It's okay to be mistaken, ewq. We're here to try to help you straighten it out...
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