Sabbath braker?

[DPMartin]

When Jesus healed on the Sabbath, and His Apostles were gathering corn on the Sabbath, did He disobey the Commandments?

 

[Raeneske]

When Jesus healed on the Sabbath, and His Apostles were gathering corn on the Sabbath, did He disobey the Commandments?

What is sin? According to my Bible sin is...

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is the transgression of the law. Did Christ transgress the law?

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

So according to my Bible, Christ Jesus did not transgress the law of God. Those holy Ten Commandments, Christ never broke. So then everything that Christ did and defended was not sin.

What we have to realize is that Christ was magnifying the law of God. Christ was not teaching that the law of God didn't need to be kept, but He was showing to the world the right way to observe the commandments. He put the commandments back into perspective for the Jews who had sorely perverted God's law. For example, God clearly showed that He wanted the Sabbath to be kept. He refused to rain down manna upon His Sabbath (literally, the 7th day, not just any seventh day). He was clear in the book of Nehemiah 13:15-22 that buying and selling were not permitted upon the Sabbath. And obviously no work was to be done on Sabbath, that of gathering. Yet He permitted the fact that the Apostles were walking through the fields to pluck a few grains and eat them. Why? Because idea of plucking a few grains and eating it right there is completely different than gathering loads of grain, to bring it back to your house, to store it, and to cook it. One is obviously tedious labour, and the other is not. And Christ was putting this back into perspective so that those who do something like turn on a light switch don't think they're in sin. That's not what God forbade to be done on the Sabbath.

Christ magnified the entire law and made it honourable. The Sabbath was made honourable by our Lord. It was not made to be a burden, which the Jews erroneous ideas made it to be. Just like the idea of committing adultery was not meant to be allowed inwardly, but only restricted outwardly. Be faithful to your spouse in your heart, and not just in outward appearance.

Christ put the law back into it's proper perspective. We have to see how Christ obeyed each commandment, to see how we are supposed to do them.

Christ showed that the Jews broke God's commandment of honouring our parents when declaring Corban, defrauding their mother and father. They blatantly disregarded the commandment here. With adultery, He showed that they inwardly were messing up there. With the Sabbath, He was showing them that they were going to far. But He put all things back into perspective for us to see.

Mark 7:9-11 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Abstain from all the tedious labour on the Sabbath. Refrain from cooking, refrain from harvest. But rather turn on your lights, and gather with your church family. Don't think that turning a key in the ignition of your car so you can go to church is sinful. It's far from it.

 

[ewq1938]

When Jesus healed on the Sabbath, and His Apostles were gathering corn on the Sabbath, did He disobey the Commandments?

They broke the Sabbath for sure but Jesus gives reasons why it was ok. First he cites two examples where people broke the rules for a higher moral purpose clearly showing that he had the same right as they did. Secondly, he informs them he is Lord of the Sabbath meaning he has the authority to excuse himself and others from certain banned activities. He also says that doing good is always has been ok on the Sabbath in regarding to healing people.

 

[DPMartin]

They broke the Sabbath for sure but Jesus gives reasons why it was ok. First he cites two examples where people broke the rules for a higher moral purpose clearly showing that he had the same right as they did. Secondly, he informs them he is Lord of the Sabbath meaning he has the authority to excuse himself and others from certain banned activities. He also says that doing good is always has been ok on the Sabbath in regarding to healing people.

Also to DGenisis

thanks for the replys

Well He said the Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath, didn’t He? He didn’t say the Son of God is Lord of the Sabbath. And many times the Lord would call His prophets back in the day "son of man". When we come into the world, we are sons of men.

The thing is, which I do believe the Lord stresses over and over again with His People and their leadership. The law is nothing without the living, the living can live without the law, and the law has no existence or power without the living. Law is for the guiding of thy feet, not for the crushing of your head. Without the need for an agreement between two or more living entities to coexist peacefully, there is no need for law, commandment, covenant, (an agreement). Which includes the need to be aware of trustworthiness, and appropriate forgiveness of transgressions of the agreements. Simple law is under thy feet for guidance thereof, except when expedient to do otherwise for living and the living, which Jesus used other examples to explain.

No moral la ti da, no religious rhetoric, simple application of living.

Also Jesus forgave all on the Cross which proves that in the Lord’s view, the life of the living is more important than, the condemnation using the transgressions of the law.

by the by, Jesus never trangressed the law, it's a discription and a wittness of Him, He fulfilled it to His Father's satifaction, hence to perfection.

 

[Barrd]

Didn't Jesus explain that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath?
Thus, He was not breaking the Sabbath. He was doing what was lawful.

BTW, He also mentioned that the Sabbath was made for man...not the other way around.

 

[ewq1938]

Also to DGenisis

thanks for the replys

Well He said the Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath, didn’t He? He didn’t say the Son of God is Lord of the Sabbath.

Same difference. Jesus was talking about himself as the Son of man.

by the by, Jesus never trangressed the law

Yes he transgressed the law regarding the Sabbath but it was allowable as I have already explained.

 

[Barrd]

Jesus did not transgress the law...that is a lie.
Jesus explained that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
He also said that the Sabbath had been made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Just as He did with many of the other commandments, Jesus was clarifying this one, not changing it.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus did not transgress the law...that is a lie.

No, it's scripture. It is lawful to transgress/break the Sabbath laws IF you have a higher moral purpose.


Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

 

[Barrd]

Jesus...Who is the God Who wrote the Law in the first place, explains that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day. God said it, therefore, it is true. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day. Anyone who does not agree is believing a lie....only God is telling the truth here.

 

[DPMartin]

Ewq
What seems to be eluding you is, you are not nor am I the interpreter of what is or is not the correct fulfillment of the law. Jesus is, heck, He was the One on mount Sinai giving it to Moses.
He being the Lord is Lord of the law and says the Son of man is also. If He transgressed the law He wouldn’t be qualified to be the Messiah, Son of God. That is why the Pharisees were always trying to find fault in Him to be rid of His influence with the people. The Pharisees knew exactly what they were doing. They knew that if He was a fault with the law they can prove He wasn’t the Messiah. Technically it was their job. The ram or sheep that was offered for certain sacrifices was to be without a blemish. And it was their job to see that their was no blemishes before they would continue with the offering. If Jesus transgressed the law according to God the Father, He wouldn’t have been risen. It was a requirement to be a acceptable sacrifice. And that was also the law.

 

[justaname]

New American Standard Bible
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

 

[ewq1938]

If He transgressed the law He wouldn’t be qualified to be the Messiah, Son of God.

There is no IF. He transgressed it. If you can't see that there is nothing I can ever say to change that. The issue here to be understood is how can you transgress the law but be blameless. The answers are in those verses.

That is why the Pharisees were always trying to find fault in Him to be rid of His influence with the people. The Pharisees knew exactly what they were doing. They knew that if He was a fault with the law they can prove He wasn’t the Messiah.

Sure but he explained there was no fault or wrong in their breaking of the Sabbath so the Pharisees had nothing to convict him of.

If Jesus transgressed the law according to God the Father, He wouldn’t have been risen.

No, he wouldn't have been a proper sacrifice. It isn't related to being resurrected. No worries though, Christ transgressed the law but was blameless in doing it just as the ones in his two examples he used in his defense.

 

[heretoeternity]

There is no IF. He transgressed it. If you can't see that there is nothing I can ever say to change that. The issue here to be understood is how can you transgress the law but be blameless. The answers are in those verses.


Sure but he explained there was no fault or wrong in their breaking of the Sabbath so the Pharisees had nothing to convict him of.



No, he wouldn't have been a proper sacrifice. It isn't related to being resurrected. No worries though, Christ transgressed the law but was blameless in doing it just as the ones in his two examples he used in his defense.

If Jesus "transgressed" the law as you said, that would make Him a sinner...you are speaking blasphemy...
1st John in the Bible says "sin is transgression of the law"....Jesus redefined God's law by making not only written on tablets of stone, but also gave us the spirit of the law...and placed it in the hearts and minds of true followers Hebrews 18 and 20...Paul says in Romans "it is doers of the law that are justified, not just listeners and in Romans Paul says do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law.

Remember always, salvation is through the Son of God, God's grace and commandments, and NOT the sungod/satan and his doctrines and days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origins brought to you by the pagan Roman globalist (catholic) system.

 

[ewq1938]

If Jesus "transgressed" the law as you said, that would make Him a sinner...you are speaking blasphemy...

That isn't true if the transgression is lawful. Just go back top the verses and re-read them. It's all explained there very clearly.

Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?


Study this concept: "profane the sabbath, and are blameless" then you will understand what took place.

 

[DPMartin]

Ewq
In the case of a soldier, if he kills his fellow soldier intentionally, then its murder. If he kills the enemy saving the life of his fellow soldier he’s a hero, to be relied on. One of these is a transgression of the law thou shalt not kill, but the other isn’t, isn’t that so ewq?

Same act but a difference according to whether it’s a transgression of the law or not. Simple, one act of labor for profit maybe a transgression but the healing of a person or saving the life a an animal, isn’t a transgression of the law. Speeding to drive aggressively is braking the law, speeding to get your wife braking water to the ER isn’t. And cop giving citations for that, might be fired. If you don’t know the reason for the law, then you can’t understand when it’s transgressed or broken, or not transgressed or broken.
According to the OED Transgress V: To go beyond the bounds or limits prescribed by (a law, command, etc.); to break, violate, infringe, contravene, trespass against.
　
So to transgress in the English language is to, what does it say again? "to break, violate, infringe, contravene, trespass against."

There is what is understood as the letter of the law, and what is understood as the spirit of the law. He who sees the letter of the law, seeks condemnation of the other. He who sees the spirit of the law, seeks mercy and to be mercyful.

 

[ewq1938]

Ewq
In the case of a soldier, if he kills his fellow soldier intentionally, then its murder. If he kills the enemy saving the life of his fellow soldier he’s a hero, to be relied on. One of these is a transgression of the law thou shalt not kill, but the other isn’t, isn’t that so ewq?

No it is not so because there is no such commandment that says "thou shalt not kill". The commandment in the Hebrew is "thou shalt not murder" which is a specific type of killing which is illegal and morally wrong.

Simple, one act of labor for profit maybe a transgression but the healing of a person or saving the life a an animal, isn’t a transgression of the law.

Gathering food on the Sabbath is against the law but they were doing it. They transgressed the law but they had a moral reason to break that law...which was because of Christ's ministry which was 7 days a week and didn't stop on the Sabbath. They also weren't supposed to be traveling on the Sabbath but the ministry called for traveling.

Speeding to drive aggressively is braking the law, speeding to get your wife braking water to the ER isn’t.

Incorrect, a private person is breaking the law if they are speeding but likely they will be excused from guilt because of that particular reason to be speeding.


　

 

[DPMartin]

No it is not so because there is no such commandment that says "thou shalt not kill". The commandment in the Hebrew is "thou shalt not murder" which is a specific type of killing which is illegal and morally wrong.


　

Now that’s a lie. The Stone Edition of the Torah a Hebrew document with Hebrew and English text in parallel, translates the text to "you shall not kill." How is it that you know more about the text then they do?

What, it's not according to your view of what is, or is not moral?

 

[Raeneske]

Matthew 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Jesus explains that it's lawful to do well on the Sabbath. In other words, the Sabbath commandment did not forbid doing well. It is in harmony with the Sabbath to heal a man through Divine power. Will we now accuse God of breaking His own law, because on the Sabbath Day He made a man whole? How ridiculous of an accusation is this? The very cells in your own body work daily to heal your body of the day's damage. Shall we now accuse our own bodies of breaking the Sabbath? Shall we accuse God for making us bodies which need to daily be healed? Shall we charge God with breaking His own law?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Jesus is sinless. He is perfect. He has perfect understanding of the Law. He understands the law (Exodus 20) and the Spirit behind the Law (1 Corinthians 13). Therefore to heal a man on the Sabbath was never breaking the Sabbath. You can not lawfully transgress the Divine Law. All which is allowed to be done, is in harmony with the law. Like the work of salvation. Perfectly acceptable labour on the Sabbath, because it is in harmony of the object of the Sabbath. The law does not "do not any work period at all for anything period". Read every single word in the law. Every single word. The Sabbath Day is holy, therefore, holy labour is acceptable. Such labour is not transgression of the Divine Law.

 

[ewq1938]

Now that’s a lie. The Stone Edition of the Torah a Hebrew document with Hebrew and English text in parallel, translates the text to "you shall not kill." How is it that you know more about the text then they do?

This isn't about me. What the Hebrew states is well known by anyone who has studied the actual wording. And stop throwing around the false accusation "lie". You haven't even studied this well enough to be able to decide what is a lie or not.


Exodus 20:13

(ABP+) You shall notG3756 murder.G5407

(ASV) Thou shalt not kill.

(BBE) Do not put anyone to death without cause.

(Brenton) Thou shalt not commit adultery.

(CEV) Do not murder.

(Darby) Thou shalt not kill.

(DRB) Thou shalt not kill.

(ESV) "You shall not murder.

(GNB) "Do not commit murder.

(GW) "Never murder.

(ISV) "You are not to murder.

(JPS) Thou shalt not murder.

(KJV) Thou shalt not kill.

(KJV+) Thou shalt notH3808 kill.H7523

(LITV) You shall not murder.

(MKJV) You shall not kill.

(RV) Thou shalt do no murder.

(TLV) Do not murder.

(WEBA) “You shall not murder.

(Webster) Thou shalt not kill.

(YLT) `Thou dost not murder.


Most translate it properly as murder...."kill" is too vague because it is talking about a specific type of killing. JPS is the Jewish translation which naturally uses murder instead of kill.

 

[ewq1938]

Shall we now accuse our own bodies of breaking the Sabbath? Shall we accuse God for making us bodies which need to daily be healed? Shall we charge God with breaking His own law?

You aren't getting it. Healing isn't how they broke the Sabbath. It was mainly that they were gathering and eating food on the Sabbath which is breaking of it's law. Secondarily they are also traveling which is forbidden as well.

You are also not addressing the fact that Jesus in his defense of their actions on the Sabbath used two examples of the law being broken but for a moral cause which left the law breakers blameless which means no guilt or sin involved.

So Jesus did break the law but he was able to do this because his ministry and their needs to travel and gather to eat were above the rules of the Sabbath.