Sabbath-Keeping

[UppsalaDragby]

The commandments that Jesus asks you to keep if you love Him (John 14:15 KJV).

Yes, and??

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Not sure why you call me a hypocrite.

Really????

So how is calling someone a "sin-lover" for advocating obedience to the law of Christ, rather than the Mosaic law not an ad-hominim attack?

 

[UppsalaDragby]

The idea that our Savior saves people IN sin instead of FROM sin.

Who here has made that assertion? If you are going to "refute" something then you need to demonstrate exactly what argument you are trying to refute.

James says that if we fail to fulfill our obligation to keep the Ten Commandments we become sinners (James 2:10-12 KJV), yet you and others somehow have concluded that Jesus will save those who do just that.

James never said that we are under the obligation to keep the 10 commandments. All he does is point out the fact that someone who breaks one law under a legal system is guilty of being a lawbreaker. For example, if you keep the 4th commandment and yet break the 9th then that is exactly what you are.

Don't you agree???

He is simply making a valid point. One that is constantly being ignored for the purpose of defending a false doctrine.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

You should know that accusing others of belonging to the devil is a serious violation of forum rules.

Hypocrite!

Why don't you READ the rules instead of appealing to them when it suits you!?

Let me quote:

"Do not lie. True Christians will not post rumors or false accusations, one would think that would be a given. However, this is one thing we will not tolerate. Remember that our father hates false balances/scales (Proverbs 11:1). "

Now, again, if you can support the accusations you make by using direct quotes, then please do so! But unless you take into consideration everything that has been said about this issue, then not even that will help you.

 

[Axehead]

Axehead, in Matthew 7:23 KJV Jesus - the God of the Old Testament who wrote His Ten Commandments on stone at Mount Sinai - did not say, "Depart from Me, ye who KEEP the law". He said, "Depart from Me, ye who BREAK the law." What Bible version are you reading, because I would suggest you switch to the KJV.

You should also know that what you refer to as "inferior" Paul refers to as "holy, just, and good".

The law is holy and just and good, but still inferior to the Law of Christ and more importantly to grace and the Spirit of Christ.

Also, I do read the KJV and you changed Matt 7:23. It says "depart from me ye who work iniquity" not "ye who break the law".

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus also said this.

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Phoneman, thanks again for the opportunity to correct you and I'm going to stop because you are bringing no revelation or truth to the conversation.
You just keep repeating yourself.

 

[Phoneman777]

Where on earth did I say that we are at liberty to act contrary to them? In fact I even pointed this out explicitly in post #582 when I said;
"But don't even TRY for a second try to twist this around, which sabbatarians have the habit of doing, to making it seem that I am saying that it is OK to indulge in practices that are directly contrary to them."

Gee... that appeal didn't fall into good earth, did it???

That is exactly why Paul, who was constantly being harassed by legalists when he said that we were no longer under the law, explained that the result of his theology was NOT that such freedom should lead to sin:

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!"

You are trying to twist my words today in EXACTLY the same way as legalists tried to twist Paul's word back in the day. There is NO difference at all. You are wearing the same mantle that they did!

Now if you are going to dishonestly distort what I said, then there is not much I can do about that, but if on the other hand you think you have a valid point, then do what I have said all along - try to avoid breaking the 9th commandment and USE THE QUOTING FACILITY that is available in this forum!

Upp, you misread my post. Go back and re-read SLOWLY the first line of 674.

 

[Phoneman777]

Really????

So how is calling someone a "sin-lover" for advocating obedience to the law of Christ, rather than the Mosaic law not an ad-hominim attack?

"Unconscious love of sin" is not a statement of condemnation, because one who has such is not aware of it. "In times of ignorance, God winked."

"Satan's own" is a direct accusation, which is a violation of forum rules.

 

[Phoneman777]

Exodus 20:1
​ And God spake all these words, saying,
I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Looks like God is speaking to the people He brought up out of Egypt, not me. He brought me out of spiritual Egypt with spiritual rest. Praise the Lord!!

If those people that were brought up out of Egypt were alive today and received Christ, they would understand that Christ is their Sabbath Rest and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is far superior to the Law of Moses.

I do want to thank the "law keepers", those fallen from grace for giving the rest of us the opportunity to lay out very completely for all the readers why exactly the 10 commandments are inferior to the Law of Christ. They only cover outward actions and physical, ritualistic rest without dealing with an impure heart and giving one spiritual rest from their own religious, fleshly works of self-righteousness.

Axehead

Axehead, the Sabbath was not given exclusively to the Israelites, for the One Who created the Sabbath declared Himself that "the Sabbath was made for MAN" (Gr. "anthropos" - "mankind" which refers to every single person on earth) and M-A-N is a strange way to spell "Israelite" or "Jew".

Abraham kept God's "charge, commandments, statutes, and laws" and there's no reason not to believe that the Sabbath was included among them.

Why do you accuse "lawkeepers" to have fallen from grace when it is not lawkeepers but lawbreakers that Jesus will order to depart from His presence at Judgment Day? You know full well that "fallen from grace" refers to those who attempt to earn salvation by lawkeeping, which no one here is arguing, so please stop this dishonest nonsense and focus on the topic of the thread.

 

[Phoneman777]

Who here has made that assertion? If you are going to "refute" something then you need to demonstrate exactly what argument you are trying to refute.


James never said that we are under the obligation to keep the 10 commandments. All he does is point out the fact that someone who breaks one law under a legal system is guilty of being a lawbreaker. For example, if you keep the 4th commandment and yet break the 9th then that is exactly what you are.

Don't you agree???

He is simply making a valid point. One that is constantly being ignored for the purpose of defending a false doctrine.

Upp, your claim that "we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but we are not at liberty to act contrary to them" is first rate creative theological doublespeak which relies on the redefining of plain words of English. "Obligation" means "not at liberty" and "Liberty" means "under no obligation". Perhaps you should lay aside the Bible and pick up a dictionary and prove it for yourself.

 

[Axehead]

Upp, your claim that "we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but we are not at liberty to act contrary to them" is first rate creative theological doublespeak which relies on the redefining of plain words of English. "Obligation" means "not at liberty" and "Liberty" means "under no obligation". Perhaps you should lay aside the Bible and pick up a dictionary and prove it for yourself.

Christians who walk in the Spirit go further than keeping the 10 commandments. Jesus fulfilled them by going further and we fulfill them by walking in the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Axehead]

Axehead, the Sabbath was not given exclusively to the Israelites, for the One Who created the Sabbath declared Himself that "the Sabbath was made for MAN" (Gr. "anthropos" - "mankind" which refers to every single person on earth) and M-A-N is a strange way to spell "Israelite" or "Jew".

Abraham kept God's "charge, commandments, statutes, and laws" and there's no reason not to believe that the Sabbath was included among them.

Why do you accuse "lawkeepers" to have fallen from grace when it is not lawkeepers but lawbreakers that Jesus will order to depart from His presence at Judgment Day? You know full well that "fallen from grace" refers to those who attempt to earn salvation by lawkeeping, which no one here is arguing, so please stop this dishonest nonsense and focus on the topic of the thread.

Again, you give me an opportunity to correct you and let the readers know the proper understanding of Abraham and the Sabbath.

If you take the whole book of Genesis, the Bible talks about Abraham being a righteous man and it describes in detail, going to places and worshipping. It describes in detail, time and again, his offering of sacrifices and his falling down and praying and it talked of his righteousness, but it never mentioned him keeping the Sabbath. That is very strange. The Bible mentions his tithing, but it never mentions his Sabbath keeping. Then we have Isaac, who was also a righteous man and no mention of the Sabbath. Then we have Jacob and all his trials that he goes through with God and God teaching him and yet no mention of the Sabbath or Sabbath keeping. Then we have the 12 sons of Jacob and we have their devotion to God and Joseph going down to Egypt, and the Bible makes a big point of Joseph’s faithfulness to God. Down in Egypt, he worships God, he prays and they try to find some fault in him and yet, no mention of him ever keeping the Sabbath.

And then we come to Moses and we see Moses fleeing Egypt and then coming back but yet again no mention of Moses keeping the Sabbath. You find Moses dealing with the Jews for over a year and plagues coming but you find no mention of them ever keeping the Sabbath. And then when Moses tells Pharoah that he wants to take the people and go 3 days journey and worship, he never says that they want to go keep the Sabbath. Moses never said that they want to keep the Sabbath holy unto God. If they kept the Sabbath, this would be the place to say it!

There is a conspicuous absence of any Patriarch keeping the Sabbath until Moses receives it as a commandment from God. This is irrefutable from the KJV Bible and even other Bibles.

So, to tell us that God instituted Sabbath Keeping from the book of Genesis is absolutely false! He instituted nothing of the kind. The Bible tells us that He rested. That was His business! And when He got ready to reveal it, He revealed it to the nation of Israel and it was a sign between Him and the nation of Israel. Not between anyone else. A sign of a covenant. A covenant that he made with the nation of Israel. He never made that covenant with the nations of Gentiles. And the Gentiles have not entered into that covenant. The covenant that the Gentiles have entered into is the covenant that God made with Abraham to bless the world through his seed. Abraham was a Gentile not a Jew, not an Israelite and he did not keep the Sabbath.

When God made a covenant with the nation of Israel, He made it with the Jews, with the Israelites, not with Abraham and the Bible never speaks of us, the Church, as being the seed of Jacob (Israel) or the seed of Isaac. It speaks of us being the seed of Abraham by faith and that has nothing to do with the nation of Israel.
We are the seed of a Gentile that did not keep the Sabbath, not the seed of an Israelite or a Jew who was commanded to keep the Sabbath. This is powerful!! This is extremely significant.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Upp, you misread my post. Go back and re-read SLOWLY the first line of 674.

No, I didn't "misread anything". I've read your post SLOWLY, QUICKLY and EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN. But that does not escape the fact that the INSINUATION here (since you made that comment in response to ME) is that what I am advocating is that we are free to sin. So don't slyly try to pretend that that was not your intention. Don't try to test my patience with debating tricks. Be honest for once!

 

[UppsalaDragby]

"Unconscious love of sin" is not a statement of condemnation, because one who has such is not aware of it. "In times of ignorance, God winked."

"Satan's own" is a direct accusation, which is a violation of forum rules.

Another detestable form of insinuation based on your contempt for others. Don't you have any pride at all man? Can't you see yourself being held accountable for things like this?

YOUR claim (in other words a "direct accusation") is that I have an "unconscious love of sin". Unless you can prove the fact that you know what my "unconscious" thoughts are then you are giving a FALSE testimony! Try to slither your way out of that...

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Upp, your claim that "we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but we are not at liberty to act contrary to them" is first rate creative theological doublespeak which relies on the redefining of plain words of English. "Obligation" means "not at liberty" and "Liberty" means "under no obligation". Perhaps you should lay aside the Bible and pick up a dictionary and prove it for yourself.

Well if you can point out anything in my posts that indicate that we are at "liberty" to act in a manner that is contrary to the 10 commandments then USE QUOTES (man am I getting tired of having to say that).

What I actually DO claim is that the law that we are under the obligation to obey is the Law of Christ. So why don't you take your little dictionary and just tell us how obeying the law of Christ can be interpreted as meaning that we are at "liberty" to act contrary to the 10 commandments... you know.. with all things taken into consideration...

This should be interesting. Um...if you have the courage and decency to address it...

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Again, you give me an opportunity to correct you and let the readers know the proper understanding of Abraham and the Sabbath.

Axe, I have been correcting Phoneman all throughout this thread. But does he accept correction? NO, not even when using scripture which was given to us for that very purpose! So even when you point out to him that the sabbath was "made known" by the "hand of Moses" (Neh 9:14), that the gentiles "don't have the law" (Rom 2:14), and that the covenant was NOT made with the patriarchs (Deut 5:2-4), he will stubbornly ignore all of this and focus on the word "man" in Mark 2:27, which doesn't even prove his point!

Whatever happened to establishing a matter on "two or three witnesses"?

 

[Axehead]

Axe, I have been correcting Phoneman all throughout this thread. But does he accept correction? NO, not even when using scripture which was given to us for that very purpose! So even when you point out to him that the sabbath was "made known" by the "hand of Moses" (Neh 9:14), that the gentiles "don't have the law" (Rom 2:14), and that the covenant was NOT made with the patriarchs (Deut 5:2-4), he will stubbornly ignore all of this and focus on the word "man" in Mark 2:27, which doesn't even prove his point!

Whatever happened to establishing a matter on "two or three witnesses"?

Yeah, I know and what about all the many scripture "witnesses", too. But, I realized that he has given us the opportunity to cover his bad doctrine from many, many angles and that can only be good for the readers of this thread. He is not learning anything but many readers/lurkers are. So, be of good cheer and keep posting.

 

[Phoneman777]

Well if you can point out anything in my posts that indicate that we are at "liberty" to act in a manner that is contrary to the 10 commandments then USE QUOTES (man am I getting tired of having to say that).

When did I claim that you said or suggested that we act contrary to the Ten Commandments?

 

[Phoneman777]

Christians who walk in the Spirit go further than keeping the 10 commandments. Jesus fulfilled them by going further and we fulfill them by walking in the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Yes, Christians go further than the Ten Commandments because Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would "magnify the law and make it honorable". For one to say, "I'm not obligated to follow God's law which forbids adultery because I do not lust after other women" is ludicrous. Of course we are obligated to keep the 7th commandment.

 

[Phoneman777]

Again, you give me an opportunity to correct you and let the readers know the proper understanding of Abraham and the Sabbath.
So, to tell us that God instituted Sabbath Keeping from the book of Genesis is absolutely false! He instituted nothing of the kind.

In never said "God instituted the Sabbath from the book of Genesis". I said that God created the Sabbath in Eden and there is not reason for us not to believe that it was among the "charge, commandments, statutes, and laws" that Abraham kept. Man, your reading comprehension skills are lacking.

The Sabbath was made in Eden for "mankind". It was not made at Sinai. Should we believe that God kept back this blessed day from "mankind" until He decided to give it exclusively to the Israelites and withhold it from everyone else? That's not how my Creator works.

 

[Phoneman777]

No, I didn't "misread anything". I've read your post SLOWLY, QUICKLY and EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN. But that does not escape the fact that the INSINUATION here (since you made that comment in response to ME) is that what I am advocating is that we are free to sin. So don't slyly try to pretend that that was not your intention. Don't try to test my patience with debating tricks. Be honest for once!

*SIGH* OK, I dug up your ridiculous statement and here it is:

"NO, we are NOT "obligated" to keep the 10 commandments due to the fact that we are not under those commandments. But don't even TRY for a second try to twist this around, which sabbatarians have the habit of doing, to making it seem that I am saying that it is OK to indulge in practices that are directly contrary to them."

My response it this:

Your claim that "we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but we are not at liberty to act contrary to them" (a nice paraphrase, don't you think?) is first rate creative theology and is a shining example of theological doublespeak which seeks to take both sides of an issue. You can't have it both ways.

"Obligation" means "not at liberty" and "Liberty" means "under no obligation".