Sabbath-Keeping

[Axehead]

Yes, Christians go further than the Ten Commandments because Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would "magnify the law and make it honorable". For one to say, "I'm not obligated to follow God's law which forbids adultery because I do not lust after other women" is ludicrous. Of course we are obligated to keep the 7th commandment.

No, we are obligated to keep Jesus' commandment, and you can only do it by the Spirit.

Mat_5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat_5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Those who think they are only obligated to keep ONLY the 7th, will justify an impure heart in their lives. That is not loving God with all of your heart.

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[Phoneman777]

Another detestable form of insinuation based on your contempt for others. Don't you have any pride at all man? Can't you see yourself being held accountable for things like this?

YOUR claim (in other words a "direct accusation") is that I have an "unconscious love of sin". Unless you can prove the fact that you know what my "unconscious" thoughts are then you are giving a FALSE testimony! Try to slither your way out of that...

Brother, my saying that I think you have an unconscious love of sin is not an attack on your character. Besides, at this point I no longer think you do. What I think based on your posts is that you have a serious inability to discern sound doctrine, which I hope will change.

 

[Phoneman777]

No, we are obligated to keep Jesus' commandment, and you can only do it by the Spirit.

Those who think they are only obligated to keep ONLY the 7th, will justify an impure heart in their lives. That is not loving God with all of your heart.

Who is saying that we are only obligated to keep the 7th commandment and not go beyond it? No one.

The issue is that because you and Upp do not want to keep the seventh day Sabbath, you are willing to argue the senseless idea that going beyond the 7th commandment somehow leaves no obligation for the Christian to keep the 7th commandment - an idea which no doubt you apply to the rest of the Ten Commandments.

Christians are obligated to keep all Ten Commandments because violating them is called "sin" and Jesus said "go and sin no more".

 

[Axehead]

Who is saying that we are only obligated to keep the 7th commandment and not go beyond it? No one.

The issue is that because you and Upp do not want to keep the seventh day Sabbath, you are willing to argue the senseless idea that going beyond the 7th commandment somehow leaves no obligation for the Christian to keep the 7th commandment - an idea which no doubt you apply to the rest of the Ten Commandments.

Christians are obligated to keep all Ten Commandments because violating them is called "sin" and Jesus said "go and sin no more".

We are obligated to walk by the Spirit, abide in the Vine and love God and our neighbors. Now, by doing that we will go further than what the 10 commandments require. So what is the problem?

 

[Axehead]

Paul listed a few commandments and then said if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

When did I claim that you said or suggested that we act contrary to the Ten Commandments?

I didn't say you did!

What, on the other hand, you have done is constantly insinuate that someone who claims that we are no longer under the Mosiac law (which INCLUDES the 10 commandments) are advocating a behaviour that is contrary to the 10 commandments. I have never made that claim. What I have done is point out the we are under a different law. One which NONETHELESS is consistent with the morality of the Mosiac law, but not equivalent to it. If it was we would be DOOMED!!! The law of Christ gives us the opportunity to fulfill the demands of the Mosaic law through faith, making provision for the fact that we fall short of keeping them.

We experience failures, but as long as we focus on Christ in the midst of them, then our shortcommings are forgiven and our righteousness is as if it was the righteousness of Christ. THAT is the gospel my friend - NOT our enemy's sly attempt to reintroduce legalistic condemnation into the church.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

*SIGH* OK, I dug up your ridiculous statement and here it is:

"NO, we are NOT "obligated" to keep the 10 commandments due to the fact that we are not under those commandments. But don't even TRY for a second try to twist this around, which sabbatarians have the habit of doing, to making it seem that I am saying that it is OK to indulge in practices that are directly contrary to them."

My response it this:

Your claim that "we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but we are not at liberty to act contrary to them" (a nice paraphrase, don't you think?) is first rate creative theology and is a shining example of theological doublespeak which seeks to take both sides of an issue. You can't have it both ways.

"Obligation" means "not at liberty" and "Liberty" means "under no obligation".

You are just repeating the same argument over and over again, but ignoring what I have said all along. If the speed limit in Germany dictates that you are not allowed to drive faster than 100 km an hour and you move to France where the speed limit is 100 km an hour, does that mean you are at "liberty" to break the German speed limit???? No it doesn't! And it doesn't escape the fact that someone living in France is under a completely different legal system than someone who lives in Germany!

Now I completely understand your objection that if both laws say exactly the same thing then what's the big deal. But as far as I can see they DON'T say exactly the same thing. To start with, a law is not just a list of commandments. A legal system not only dictates what we are obligated to do - it also dicates what the consequences are. If anyone breaks the 10 commandments under the Mosaic law then they are sentenced to the punishment of condemnation and death. Sabbatarians try to circumvent this but they never actually deal with the rest of what scripture says. We can easily see that there are things written in the Mosaic law that were types and shadows of the realities in the gospel, and dispite the fact that SDAs try to make it look like anyone who questions their theology is "singling out the 4th commandment", the FACT of the matter is that it is SCRIPTURE that does so!

The Mosaic obserance of the Sabbath day was merely a shadow of what would come the day Jesus was crucified for our sins. We no longer have to WORK for our salvation! We have recieved a rightousness that NONE of our strivings can attain.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Brother, my saying that I think you have an unconscious love of sin is not an attack on your character. Besides, at this point I no longer think you do. What I think based on your posts is that you have a serious inability to discern sound doctrine, which I hope will change.

Well you are very welcome to point out why you think I lack the ability to discern sound doctrine, but please let me remind you that to date you have not provided ONE single point that I have not been able to responed to whereas I have about 15-20 questions that you have just chosen to ignore.

Someone who boasts of adhering to "sound doctrine" would be able to prove their claims with scripture, don't you think?

Do you want me to repeat the questions you have failed to answer?

Just let me know and I will.

And of course, you are equally welcome to present the questions or the scriptures that you think stump me in any way.

Do we have a deal?

 

[Phoneman777]

We are obligated to walk by the Spirit, abide in the Vine and love God and our neighbors. Now, by doing that we will go further than what the 10 commandments require. So what is the problem?

We are also obligated to keep His commandments, because "blessed are they that do His commandments that "have a right to the Tree of Life and may enter into the gates to the city." Revelation 22:14 KJV. The problem is people who claim that keeping the Ten Commandments is somehow a bad thing that brings a curse upon us, when Scripture says otherwise.

 

[Phoneman777]

Paul listed a few commandments and then said if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

I agree. If you love God, you'll keep the first four and if you love your neighbor, you'll keep the last six.

 

[Phoneman777]

I didn't say you did!

What, on the other hand, you have done is constantly insinuate that someone who claims that we are no longer under the Mosiac law (which INCLUDES the 10 commandments) are advocating a behaviour that is contrary to the 10 commandments. I have never made that claim. What I have done is point out the we are under a different law. One which NONETHELESS is consistent with the morality of the Mosiac law, but not equivalent to it. If it was we would be DOOMED!!! The law of Christ gives us the opportunity to fulfill the demands of the Mosaic law through faith, making provision for the fact that we fall short of keeping them.

We experience failures, but as long as we focus on Christ in the midst of them, then our shortcommings are forgiven and our righteousness is as if it was the righteousness of Christ. THAT is the gospel my friend - NOT our enemy's sly attempt to reintroduce legalistic condemnation into the churc

Moses described his Mosaic Law as being "against thee" (God's people) and Paul says the law "that was against us" was nailed to the Cross - the Mosaic Law.

The Ten Commandment Law of God "stands fast forever and ever" and if we are not obligated to keep it, then we should be at liberty to break it. Obviously, we are not at liberty to break it, therefore, we are obligated to keep it. Plain and simple. BTW, stop throwing the "L" word around because no one here is arguing salvation by keeping the law.

 

[Phoneman777]

Well you are very welcome to point out why you think I lack the ability to discern sound doctrine, but please let me remind you that to date you have not provided ONE single point that I have not been able to responed to whereas I have about 15-20 questions that you have just chosen to ignore.

Someone who boasts of adhering to "sound doctrine" would be able to prove their claims with scripture, don't you think?

Do you want me to repeat the questions you have failed to answer?

Just let me know and I will.

And of course, you are equally welcome to present the questions or the scriptures that you think stump me in any way.

Do we have a deal?

You say that we are not allowed to act contrary to the Ten Commandments. Fine.

The Fourth Commandment says that we are to work six days a week and then keep the Sabbath holy by resting the seventh day. That means that the only way a person can avoid "acting contrary to the Ten Commandments" is if he acts in harmony with the Ten Commandments, which means he must rest on the Sabbath. You see, just as "obligation" and "liberty" mean two completely different things, it is also true that "harmony" and "contrary" mean two completely different things.

 

[Phoneman777]

You are just repeating the same argument over and over again, but ignoring what I have said all along. If the speed limit in Germany dictates that you are not allowed to drive faster than 100 km an hour and you move to France where the speed limit is 100 km an hour, does that mean you are at "liberty" to break the German speed limit???? No it doesn't! And it doesn't escape the fact that someone living in France is under a completely different legal system than someone who lives in Germany!

Now I completely understand your objection that if both laws say exactly the same thing then what's the big deal. But as far as I can see they DON'T say exactly the same thing. To start with, a law is not just a list of commandments. A legal system not only dictates what we are obligated to do - it also dicates what the consequences are. If anyone breaks the 10 commandments under the Mosaic law then they are sentenced to the punishment of condemnation and death. Sabbatarians try to circumvent this but they never actually deal with the rest of what scripture says. We can easily see that there are things written in the Mosaic law that were types and shadows of the realities in the gospel, and dispite the fact that SDAs try to make it look like anyone who questions their theology is "singling out the 4th commandment", the FACT of the matter is that it is SCRIPTURE that does so!

The Mosaic obserance of the Sabbath day was merely a shadow of what would come the day Jesus was crucified for our sins. We no longer have to WORK for our salvation! We have recieved a rightousness that NONE of our strivings can attain.

You still have yet to explain how we simultaneously have no obligation to keep the Ten Commandments but are not at liberty to break them.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Moses described his Mosaic Law as being "against thee" (God's people) and Paul says the law "that was against us" was nailed to the Cross - the Mosaic Law.

The Ten Commandment Law of God "stands fast forever and ever" and if we are not obligated to keep it, then we should be at liberty to break it.

What scripture are you claiming specifically singles out the 10 commandments, as opposed to other Mosiac laws, as being something that "stands forever and ever"?

Obviously, we are not at liberty to break it, therefore, we are obligated to keep it. Plain and simple. BTW, stop throwing the "L" word around because no one here is arguing salvation by keeping the law.

I'm not making that claim. Plain and simple. So why don't you deal with what I do say, rather than what I don't?

 

[UppsalaDragby]

You say that we are not allowed to act contrary to the Ten Commandments. Fine.

I think you are trying to read a little to much into the word "contrary". My main point in this discussion is that our conduct is consistent with what the Mosiac law was pointing towards (the reality), rather than being equivalent to it! I have pointed that out several times, so don't try to trip me up with a clever use of words.

So let me ask you this. Is circumcision of the heart "consistent" with the OT laws concerning this, or is it "contrary" to them? We who are Christian need to accept the thought that for us there are redefinitions of some of the Mosaic commandments.

The Fourth Commandment says that we are to work six days a week and then keep the Sabbath holy by resting the seventh day. That means that the only way a person can avoid "acting contrary to the Ten Commandments" is if he acts in harmony with the Ten Commandments, which means he must rest on the Sabbath. You see, just as "obligation" and "liberty" mean two completely different things, it is also true that "harmony" and "contrary" mean two completely different things.

The 4th commandment does NOT say that WE are to work six days a week and rest on the seventh! Chistians are not under the 10 commanments. Period! We are under a completely different covenant. So why try to puff out a smoke-screen that I have dealt with many, many times before ... instead of answering my question?

Why are you constantly trying to avoid my questions?

Why Phoneman??

I asked you whether or not we have a deal! You can line up the questions that you think I have not addressed, or that I have difficulty in answering, or that you think I cannot support with scripture. You are trying to side-step this by repeating arguments that have been dealt with before.

Are you prepared to meet my challenge or are you not???

Why are you not answering this?

 

[UppsalaDragby]

You still have yet to explain how we simultaneously have no obligation to keep the Ten Commandments but are not at liberty to break them.

No I do not. I have already pointed out the obvious fact that you cannot break a commandment that you are not under. Are we under the commandment to be physically circumcised and to circumcise our children? NO! Are we under the commandment to work for six days and rest on the seventh? NO! We are NOT under the 10 commandments!

Now PLEASE stop being evasive and answer my questions!!!

Why is that so difficult?

 

[Axehead]

It is Christ Himself, not the Bible, who is the true word of God. The Bible, read in the right spirit and with the guidance of good teachers, Will bring us to Him. We must not use the Bible as a sort of encyclopedia out of which texts can be taken for use as weapons. - G S. Lewis


The Word became flesh— and then through theologians it became words again. - Karl Barth


Those who have succeeded in defining doctrine most closely have lost Christ most completely. - James A. Stewart

 

[Phoneman777]

What scripture are you claiming specifically singles out the 10 commandments, as opposed to other Mosiac laws, as being something that "stands forever and ever"?



I'm not making that claim. Plain and simple. So why don't you deal with what I do say, rather than what I don't?

Psalms 111:7:8 KJV says "The works of His hands are verity and truth. All HIS commandments are sure; they stand fast forever and ever." What commandments were the result of "the works of His hands"??? That's right, the Ten Commandments which were carved out of stone and written by the hand of God.

There is not one Scripture, but many Scriptures that distinguish the Ten Commandments from the Mosaic Law, and you've already been shown them, but you stubbornly refuse to accept them.

For instance, Paul refers to the Mosaic law of the priesthood which began at Sinai as a "carnal commandment", but then refers to the law which revealed to him what lust is ("thou shalt not commit adultery") as "holy, just, and good". Can the SAME law be simultaneously "carnal" and "holy, just, and good"?

No, not anymore than Christians can simultaneously be under no obligation to keep the Ten Commandments but not at liberty to disregard them.

You cannot ignore this monumental Biblical argument that Paul makes a distinction between laws found in Scripture just as society distinguishes between criminal law, civil law, family law, corporate law, maritime law.

It is a self evident truth the the Mosaic Law which began at Sinai expired at the Cross but the Ten Commandments which go back to the beginning will remain for all eternity, for in heaven no one will be required to be circumcised or keep the Passover, but false gods, murder, theft, etc. will not be tolerated.

 

[mjrhealth]

2Co_12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

I guess it isnt sufficent for some.

You wont win this arguemnt with God,

Love fullfills the law,

If you have Love the law is no more a burden to you because Love chooses to do good,

Those who need teh LAW to do good have not love they are sinners. if you have not love you do not have God for God is Love.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

But some keep taking those "ordinances" off teh cross and breathing life back into them at the cost of there own lives, for Life is in Christ not teh Law, but some prefer teh law to Christ and so trample his good works underfoot.

And so there religion has no purpose for Christ is dead to them.

In All His Love

 

[Phoneman777]

No I do not. I have already pointed out the obvious fact that you cannot break a commandment that you are not under. Are we under the commandment to be physically circumcised and to circumcise our children? NO! Are we under the commandment to work for six days and rest on the seventh? NO! We are NOT under the 10 commandments!

Now PLEASE stop being evasive and answer my questions!!!

Why is that so difficult?

You continue to confuse the Mosaic Law which began at Sinai with the Ten Commandments which have existed from the beginning. People knew it was wrong to steal, lie, worship Nimrod, etc., long before God ever said anything about circumcision or Passover.