Sabbath-Keeping

[mjrhealth]

So phoneman again I ask the question,

What price are you willing to pay to have Christ, all of Him,

Luk 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Are you willing to loose everything for Him,

Are you willing to go into the desert alone Like Jesus, spend time in the wilderness like Moses, be thrown into prison like Joseph, be hounded by the teh righteous like David, be stoned by the religious teh Stephen,

what price a will you pay.

Again it is High and very few make it.

Many are called but few are chosen.

In All His Love

 

[face2face]

I'm amazed at the level of condescension here, as if I'm "coming around" to the thinking of those who claim that sin has no affect on the saving relationship that Christ provides. What I have said all along is that it is not perfection that is required, but a WILLINGNESS TO BE MADE PERFECT.

Nowhere in our discussion have we raised the subject of sin, perfection or a saving relationship.
To date we have been discussing how to understand the commands written in stone compared with the wisdom and understanding of the Spirit of God as manifested in the life of Jesus Christ.

The Commandments of God find their full expression in the Word made Flesh and not in Stone. To this you must agree.

1 John 2:8 cmp John 13:34

Does the New commandment superseed the old?

Yes or No?

If you say yes...then explain how it superseeds the Old?

If you say no...explain how the New falls short.

F2F

 

[aspen]

Hey - let's say keeping the Sabbath on Saturday actually mattered to God.......is that the type of personage you feel good about worshiping? Really? If the answer is yes, your devotion is based on fear of damnation not faith. That is a fact. It is also this reason this thread is so ridiculous

 

[Phoneman777]

So phoneman again I ask the question,

What price are you willing to pay to have Christ, all of Him,

Luk 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Are you willing to loose everything for Him,

Are you willing to go into the desert alone Like Jesus, spend time in the wilderness like Moses, be thrown into prison like Joseph, be hounded by the teh righteous like David, be stoned by the religious teh Stephen,

what price a will you pay.

Again it is High and very few make it.

Many are called but few are chosen.

In All His Love

Price? It's free. But, it will cost you everything - your whole self. The free gift of salvation can only be received by them that give themselves wholly over to Christ as both our Savior from our sins and our Lord to be obeyed. Of course, if you love Jesus you will gladly give yourself over to Him just as the groom gladly stands before the altar and willingly gives his whole self over to his bride. He will not cheat on her because he loves her, and the child of Jesus will be faithful to the Ten Commandments for the same reason, plain and simple.

 

[Phoneman777]

Hey - let's say keeping the Sabbath on Saturday actually mattered to God.......is that the type of personage you feel good about worshiping? Really? If the answer is yes, your devotion is based on fear of damnation not faith. That is a fact. It is also this reason this thread is so ridiculous

Actually, the doctrine of Eternal Torment is the source of fear-based religionnot "faith which worketh by love". I keep the Sabbath because it is a weekly reminder that evolution is a lie because my God created in six days and rested the seventh day, and He asks those who love Him to keep His commandments.

 

[Phoneman777]

Nowhere in our discussion have we raised the subject of sin, perfection or a saving relationship.
To date we have been discussing how to understand the commands written in stone compared with the wisdom and understanding of the Spirit of God as manifested in the life of Jesus Christ.

The Commandments of God find their full expression in the Word made Flesh and not in Stone. To this you must agree.

1 John 2:8 cmp John 13:34

Does the New commandment superseed the old?

Yes or No?

If you say yes...then explain how it superseeds the Old?

If you say no...explain how the New falls short.

F2F

Yes, and I've made the point that the commandments written in stone are not diminished by the life of Jesus, the One Who wrote them in stone. The Ten Commandments are MAGNIFIED (Isaiah 42:21 KJV) by Jesus, which means not only is adultery forbidden, but lusting after another woman; not only is murder forbidden, but hatred as well --- and not only is breaking the seventh day Sabbath forbidden, but rejecting the rest that Jesus offers to all who would come to Him for salvation is forbidden as well.

 

[mjrhealth]

Price? It's free. But, it will cost you everything - your whole self. The free gift of salvation can only be received by them that give themselves wholly over to Christ as both our Savior from our sins and our Lord to be obeyed. Of course, if you love Jesus you will gladly give yourself over to Him just as the groom gladly stands before the altar and willingly gives his whole self over to his bride. He will not cheat on her because he loves her, and the child of Jesus will be faithful to the Ten Commandments for the same reason, plain and simple.

We are not talking salvation, cant you see,all are offered salvation some are offered more, the question is always what price are you wiling to pay to go further.You can stop where you are or accept His offer and go further. You say you Love Him, how far are you willing to go with Him, what are you willing to let go of to have all of Him.

In all His Love

 

[aspen]

Actually, the doctrine of Eternal Torment is the source of fear-based religionnot "faith which worketh by love". I keep the Sabbath because it is a weekly reminder that evolution is a lie because my God created in six days and rested the seventh day, and He asks those who love Him to keep His commandments.

Wow and Wow.

You are an honest valcono worshiper. Indeed. You are a person who is willing to sacrifice everything to worship an unethical God

 

[mjrhealth]

Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Vanity is the excessive belief in one's own abilities or attractiveness to others. Prior to the 14th century it did not have such narcissistic undertones, and merely meant futility



fu·til·i·ty
(fyo͞o-tĭl′ĭ-tē)
n. pl. fu·til·i·ties
1. The quality of having no useful result; uselessness.
2. Lack of importance or purpose; frivolousness.
3. A futile act.

Jesus will not help you keep the law, it has done what it came to do, what you are attemtping is nothing more than teh above.

And for one who claims to love Jesus, seems to have a huge problem with twisting teh truth, "lying".

f Jesus, the One Who wrote them in stone.

God did, if you dont believe it, than ask Him.'

As Jesus said.

Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Two days ago, heaven was rejoicing now i wonder, what for??

In All His Love

 

[face2face]

The issue with the Sabbath under the Law compared to the Sabbath principles taught by the Lord Jesus Christ is seen in how the Sabbath Law became corrupted through tradition.

Some exceptions to the Sabbath Law:

- You could visit the sick
- You could rescue an animal from a pit
- You could water an animal

The problem:

The less one did the more holy you became...so you became totally unable to do good.

A problem for Sabbath Law keepers is the Biblical Record is silent from Adam to Moses in regards to setting a side a day of rest.

There is no Scriptural evidence to show that men kept the Sabbath as a day of rest, from the time of Adam to Moses.

The concept of rest and cessation of works was added in the time of Moses & the Law, and was an integral part (as a sign) of the Covenant that God made with Israel.

We know that the Patriarchs lived by ‘Laws & Principles’, as the following references show, yet there is no mention anywhere of keeping the Sabbath as a day of rest …….

Gen.18:19. For I know him (Abraham), that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Gen.26:5. Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

While these facts dont disprove Sabbath keeping today it highlights a very large part of Bible History is silent on the subject. If it was as critical as an SDA would suggest we would expect to see the Law established and practiced throughout Genesis.

Up next we shall consider the Sabbath within the context of the Law.

F2F

 

[face2face]

The first mention of the (exact) Hebrew word ‘Sabbath’ (שַׁבָּת shabbath) commences at the time of Moses. Here, for the first time, the prohibition against work is given

Exod.20:8-11. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exod.16:23-29 (The regulations on Manna – before the Law given)

God said that the Sabbath was given as a sign to Israel throughout their generations. (We will look more closely at the significance of the Sabbath later on). It was to be kept as a holy day, and defilement of this day brought the penalty of death, and whoever worked on this day was to be cut off.

Exod.31:13-17. Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

The Sabbath was to be a day of rest from labour ….whoever did work on that day was to be put to death.

Exod.35:1-3. And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

There is an example of a man being put to death for breaking the Sabbath Law (Num.15:32-36). This appears to be in the context of a presumptuous sin (Context – Num.15:27-31)

Apart from the weekly Sabbaths, there were various ‘holy convocations’ (assemblies) on feast days that were to be treated as ‘Sabbaths’, in which no work was to be done.

Heb’ ‘Sabbath’ is only used of weekly Sabbath & Day of Atonement.

Lev.23:3 Weekly Sabbath (ie. The Seventh Day)
Lev.23:7,8. First and last days of the Feast of Unleavened bread (No servile work to be done)
Lev.23:21. Feast of weeks or Pentecost (No servile work to be done)
Lev.23:25. Memorial of Blowing of Trumpets (1st day of 7th Month – No servile work to be done)
Lev.16:31, 23:32. The day of Atonement (10th of 7th M)
Lev.23:35-36. First and last days of the feast of Tabernacles (No servile work to be done)
Lev.25:2,4,6,8. Sabbath years (every 7th year in a cycle)

 

[face2face]

Some here, who advocate Sabbath keeping today, say that there is a distinction between the Law of Moses - as a ceremonial law, & the 10 Commandments & the Law of the LORD which they say is a moral law & therefore superior.

This is an artificial division - the Bible draws no such distinction

Luke.2:22-23. And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord (used interchangeably)

Luke.2:39. And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord , they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. (Speaking of ceremonies & rituals)

(see also Mark.7:9-10, 2.Chron.31:3, Josh.23:6-7, Neh.8:1,8,14,18).

Furthermore, Jesus himself draws no distinction between in the Law, and rather says that some aspects of the ceremonial Law (circumcision) took precedence over the regulations of the 10 Commandments and the Sabbath Law.

His argument is that the ‘healing’ he did was a work of God, in like manner to the Covenant of Circumcision under the Law, even if it was done on the Sabbath day.

John.7:23. If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

In the following references, note that there is no distinction drawn between the Law and this 10th Commandment.

Rom.7:4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom.7:7. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not know lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

A close look at the whole context of Rom.7, as well as the rest of the NT writings, will reveal that Paul, and none of the other Apostles, draws any distinction at all between the totality of the Law of Moses, and the 10 Commandments.

What we can conclude is that the 10 Commandments are really a condensation of the fuller teachings of the Law.

It is also true that under the Law there were numerous rituals, ceremonies and Laws. One of these was the regulation concerning Sabbath day observance, and the Law to cease from work.

This following reference suggests that the holy Sabbath … was not known to the Patriarchs.

Neh.14:13-14. Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant

 

[face2face]

When quizzed on the question of the Sabbath and of Sabbath keeping, Jesus answered -

Mark.2:27. And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

In this statement we find the real purpose of the Law of the Sabbath day rest - under the Law of Moses.

It was for man’s benefit, that he might rest from his labours, and that he might meditate upon the things of God, for both his physical and spiritual wellbeing.

This included showing kindness to those in need, just as God shows kindness to mankind.

The Spirit of the Sabbath – it was not only about ceasing from our works and our ways, it was rather about doing God’s will / work on that day.

Matt.12:5. The Priests laboured at the altar on the Sabbath – for the benefit of others
Isaiah.56:1-2. The Sabbath Law of ceasing from works & from evil was to teach the concept of dedication to God by the exercise of equity and justice in our dealings with others.
Isaiah.58:13-14. The Sabbath was for doing God’s will, it was to be a delight – a day for speaking God’s words.

Jesus comments on the Law and the 10 Commandments, clearly expressing the true Spirit of the Law -.

Mark.12:38-31 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

 

[Phoneman777]

We are not talking salvation, cant you see,all are offered salvation some are offered more, the question is always what price are you wiling to pay to go further.You can stop where you are or accept His offer and go further. You say you Love Him, how far are you willing to go with Him, what are you willing to let go of to have all of Him.

In all His Love

Bro, there is no "stop where you are". There is only growth in Christ as we are daily transformed more and more into the image of His likeness. When a person stops this growth, it's called DEATH - and that is exactly what happens to the faith of a Christian when he decides to tell the Holy Spirit "this far and no further". Denying God His two-fold right to rule over our lives, by both creation and redemption, and denying His daily sanctifying work of transforming us into the image of Jesus results in the branch separating from the Vine and will be cast into the fire in the end.

 

[Phoneman777]

Wow and Wow.

You are an honest valcono worshiper. Indeed. You are a person who is willing to sacrifice everything to worship an unethical God

What does "valcono" mean and why is God unethical?

 

[Phoneman777]

When quizzed on the question of the Sabbath and of Sabbath keeping, Jesus answered -

Mark.2:27. And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

In this statement we find the real purpose of the Law of the Sabbath day rest - under the Law of Moses.

It was for man’s benefit, that he might rest from his labours, and that he might meditate upon the things of God, for both his physical and spiritual wellbeing.

This included showing kindness to those in need, just as God shows kindness to mankind.

The Spirit of the Sabbath – it was not only about ceasing from our works and our ways, it was rather about doing God’s will / work on that day.

Matt.12:5. The Priests laboured at the altar on the Sabbath – for the benefit of others
Isaiah.56:1-2. The Sabbath Law of ceasing from works & from evil was to teach the concept of dedication to God by the exercise of equity and justice in our dealings with others.
Isaiah.58:13-14. The Sabbath was for doing God’s will, it was to be a delight – a day for speaking God’s words.

Jesus comments on the Law and the 10 Commandments, clearly expressing the true Spirit of the Law -.

Mark.12:38-31 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

The Sabbath is a "sign" between God and the children of Israel, but let me ask you - just who are the children of Israel? The people who hate Jesus to this day and refer to Him as "the Great Imposter"? No, the children of Israel are exactly who the Bible says they are: "And if ye be Christ's then ye are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29 KJV.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

No, the children of Israel are exactly who the Bible says they are: "And if ye be Christ's then ye are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29 KJV.

Phoneman, I think you need to remember that Abraham did not have only ONE seed, but two. Only ONE of those seeds was "heir to the promise".

One seed was the child of the "slave woman", who represented those who were under the law, and the other seed the child of the free woman who had faith in the promise:

"Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.


His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise." (Gal 4:21-23)


There is a sabbath LAW (Ex 20:8) mentioned in scripture, just as there is a sabbath PROMISE mentioned in scripture (Heb 4:1).

By choosing to be under the law, you are choosing to be a child of the slave woman!

 

[face2face]

The Sabbath is a "sign" between God and the children of Israel, but let me ask you - just who are the children of Israel? The people who hate Jesus to this day and refer to Him as "the Great Imposter"? No, the children of Israel are exactly who the Bible says they are: "And if ye be Christ's then ye are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29 KJV.

I am pleased you have admitted the Sabbath is a sign between Yahweh and natural/spiritual Israel.
Your later comments is a little more disturbing.
1. You speak condescendingly towards natural Israel not respecting they are the naturally cultivated olive branch while you are not. You are a scraggly wild uncultivated olive branch who while portraying a confidence in the Law, knows very little about it indeed as you were not alive when it was enforced and nor alive when it was taken out of the way.
2. You also jump covenants and epochs of time to force the Law and Commandments upon gentile believers today (tut tut!!).
Others here will take comfort in hearing you admit the Sabbath was given to those who were under the Law (Israel) and certainly no trace of this Law is seen from Adam to Abraham and from Jesus to this day.
Now if you wish to discuss the spiritual principles underpinning the Sabbath Law by all means lets talk.
After-all we would be speaking about the Lord of the Sabbath would we not?
F2F

"There is none other commandment greater than these."

 

[mjrhealth]

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

In all His Love

 

[Phoneman777]

Phoneman, I think you need to remember that Abraham did not have only ONE seed, but two. Only ONE of those seeds was "heir to the promise".

One seed was the child of the "slave woman", who represented those who were under the law, and the other seed the child of the free woman who had faith in the promise:

"Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.


His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise." (Gal 4:21-23)


There is a sabbath LAW (Ex 20:8) mentioned in scripture, just as there is a sabbath PROMISE mentioned in scripture (Heb 4:1).

By choosing to be under the law, you are choosing to be a child of the slave woman!

Upp, it is impossible for the son of the bondwoman to obey the law or obtain salvation by his own efforts, though he vainly attempts to do both. However, the son of the freewoman who by the power of the indwelling Christ obeys the law because he loves Christ and has already accepted the free gift of salvation does the will of God. Psalms 40:8 KJV

Jesus didn't say, "Depart from Me, ye who practice the law." He said, "Depart from Me, ye who practice lawlessness." Practicing lawlessness is a ticket to the Lake of Fire.

The Sabbath rest in Christ does not do away with the Ten Commandments any sooner than the promise of the baptism of the Holy Spirit does away with baptism by immersion when we join the church. You wouldn't argue that faith in Christ does away with any of the other Ten Commandments, so why argue that faith does away with the weekly Sabbath rest?