Sabbath-Keeping

[Phoneman777]

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

In all His Love

Great advice to those who claim to be Abraham's descendants, but who are really Satan's children.

Paul says Abraham's true descendants belong to Christ and Christ said Abraham's descendants "do the works of Abraham" (John 8:39 KJV). What "works" did Abraham do? "Because Abraham OBEYED My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statues, and My laws" (Genesis 26:5 KJV).

 

[Phoneman777]

I am pleased you have admitted the Sabbath is a sign between Yahweh and natural/spiritual Israel.
Your later comments is a little more disturbing.
1. You speak condescendingly towards natural Israel not respecting they are the naturally cultivated olive branch while you are not. You are a scraggly wild uncultivated olive branch who while portraying a confidence in the Law, knows very little about it indeed as you were not alive when it was enforced and nor alive when it was taken out of the way.
2. You also jump covenants and epochs of time to force the Law and Commandments upon gentile believers today (tut tut!!).
Others here will take comfort in hearing you admit the Sabbath was given to those who were under the Law (Israel) and certainly no trace of this Law is seen from Adam to Abraham and from Jesus to this day.
Now if you wish to discuss the spiritual principles underpinning the Sabbath Law by all means lets talk.
After-all we would be speaking about the Lord of the Sabbath would we not?
F2F

"There is none other commandment greater than these."

No, the Sabbath was never a sign to all of the Israel of old, but only to those who "entered into His rest". The majority of the Israel of old did not enter into His rest, and neither has the majority of God's people today, by virtue of their claim that grace is a license to commit sin without fear of consequence.

 

[Phoneman777]

I am pleased you have admitted the Sabbath is a sign between Yahweh and natural/spiritual Israel.
Your later comments is a little more disturbing.
1. You speak condescendingly towards natural Israel not respecting they are the naturally cultivated olive branch while you are not. You are a scraggly wild uncultivated olive branch who while portraying a confidence in the Law, knows very little about it indeed as you were not alive when it was enforced and nor alive when it was taken out of the way.
2. You also jump covenants and epochs of time to force the Law and Commandments upon gentile believers today (tut tut!!).
Others here will take comfort in hearing you admit the Sabbath was given to those who were under the Law (Israel) and certainly no trace of this Law is seen from Adam to Abraham and from Jesus to this day.
Now if you wish to discuss the spiritual principles underpinning the Sabbath Law by all means lets talk.
After-all we would be speaking about the Lord of the Sabbath would we not?
F2F

"There is none other commandment greater than these."

1) A naturally cultivated branch which bears the rotten fruit of disobedience, rejection, and murder of the Messiah deserves ZERO respect because it is dead on the ground awaiting the fire.
2) You somehow have misinterpreted my confidence in Christ for confidence in the Law. Consider yourself under correction.
3) Even those who are "without the law" but by nature "do the law" are accepted of God. How much more should we who have put faith in the One who wrote with His own finger in stone the law be willing to obey that law, the Ten Commandments?
4) You obviously don't understand that the Ten Commandments existed since the beginning and will do so for all eternity, unless you can demonstrate from the Bible if ever there was a time or will be a time when it will be acceptable practice to worship Satan, engage in idolatry, blaspheme God, break the Sabbath, etc. Of course, you are not able to do so, and moreover, the New Covenant is that same ever existing Ten Commandment law that was written in stone that is now written on the heart, so please cast aside this ridiculous notion that I "jump covenants and epochs".
5) Again, the Sabbath was and is a sign only to them that have entered and will enter into God's rest, and to claim that Christ's murderers, who lived then and now and practice the law for salvation, are marked by this sign is simply incredible.

If you wish to discuss the eternal nature of what God wrote with His own finger in stone, and how Jesus magnified (NOT REPLACED) it, I'm happy to do so. But, if you insist that the Ten Commandments do not apply to Christians, I simply ask you to list which of those commandments we are at liberty to freely break. Can't find any to list? Then, stop insisting that the Ten Commandments were only for the Israelites of old.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Upp, it is impossible for the son of the bondwoman to obey the law or obtain salvation by his own efforts, though he vainly attempts to do both. However, the son of the freewoman who by the power of the indwelling Christ obeys the law because he loves Christ and has already accepted the free gift of salvation does the will of God. Psalms 40:8 KJV

That's a nice theory, but since we know that 1) anyone claiming to be without sin is a liar, and 2) we are not under the old testament law, that argment goes right out the door.

Jesus didn't say, "Depart from Me, ye who practice the law." He said, "Depart from Me, ye who practice lawlessness." Practicing lawlessness is a ticket to the Lake of Fire.

And?

The Sabbath rest in Christ does not do away with the Ten Commandments any sooner than the promise of the baptism of the Holy Spirit does away with baptism by immersion when we join the church. You wouldn't argue that faith in Christ does away with any of the other Ten Commandments, so why argue that faith does away with the weekly Sabbath rest?

Since scripture teaches us that 1) the sabbath was merely a shadow pointing towards Christ, and 2) it is now perfectly acceptable for Christians to tread every day the same.. that argument goes... well... out the same door I guess.

And I have already pointed out that we are not under any of the 10 commandments. Being under them does not have any effect on whether or not you keep them. Read you bible instead of throwing out the same kind of strawmen over and over again.

 

[Barrd]

-
†. Rom 14:5 . . One man regards one day above another, while another
regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind.

In other words: if you're one who thinks Christians should observe the
Sabbath; then more power to you and you don't have explain why; it's your
choice. But if you're one who doesn't think Christians should observe the
Sabbath, then more power to you too; and neither do you have explain
why; it's your choice-- and God forbid that either of you attempt to lay down
the law for other Christians in an attempt to coerce to them to make the
same choices you make for yourselves. That's all the same as usurping Christ's
hard-earned right to make the rules for his followers.

†. Col 2:16-17 . . Let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or
in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day

Whether to observe the Sabbath, or not to observe it, is a matter of opinion;
and Christians are strictly forbidden to argue over their opinions.

†. Rom 14:1 . . Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the
purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.

The one who is "weak in faith" never seems to be ourselves; it's always the
other guy who's weak in faith. Well; regardless of which of us is the weak
one, we should both comply with Rom 14:1 in matters of opinion; viz: gray
areas.

Word to the wise: Let the Wookie win one.


Buen Camino
/

Wookies have been known to pull people's arms out of their sockets when they lose...

I do believe that we are still under New Covenant Law...and I believe that includes the Sabbath.
I don't think, however, that we absolutely MUST worship on that day alone...as a matter of fact, I would say that a Christian ought to worship EVERY day, not just on one particular day.
One of my favorite T-shirts says "I only worship God on days that end in y".
Of course, my other two favorites say "The sarcasm is strong in this one" (in true Star Wars style), and the other one says, "I'm not lazy. I just enjoy sitting around doing nothing." So go figure, right?

Anyway...yes.
Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. It belongs to Him...and through Him, it also belongs to me. He said that man was not made for the Sabbath...but rather that the Sabbath was made for man. It was never intended to be a burden, but rather, a gift.

The whole world, it seems, honors the Lord's Sabbath, whether it intends to or not. Saturday is THE day when all the cool stuff happens...everything from the family backyard bar-b-que to huge important events, like Prom Night, or the Big Game, or Graduation, or The Big Date (when you pop the question) are planned for Saturday.
Anyone who flea markets or owns a restaurant...even ice cream vendors...know that Saturday is a BIG MONEY day...we even have a restaurant that calls itself "TGIF" or "Thank God It's Friday"...and why do we thank God it's Friday?
I'll bet you can guess....

 

[Barrd]

Where does this idea that "we are not under the law" come from?
We are not justified by works of the law, that is quite true. Keeping the Sabbath will not save us any more than refraining from murdering our neighbor will...
Yet, for some reason, we think God is going to be more put out with us over the second than the first. You do know, I hope, that refraining from murder does not guarantee a pass through the Pearly Gates? There are loads of people who don't murder who are not going to heaven...atheists spring immediately to mind.
Breaking either of these commandments, whether it is disrespecting the Lord's Sabbath, or murdering your neighbor, is still sin. And we do know what the wages of sin is, don't we?
While we are not justified by works of the law, it is also true that faith without works is dead. Dead, as in, no life in it. If your faith has no life in it, it is dead faith...and dead faith will not save you.
Living faith obeys Christ.
That same Christ Who commands us to love one another as He loves us, also tells us that He is Lord of the Sabbath.
I honestly do not understand why there is any controversy here...

 

[Barrd]

Wow and Wow.

You are an honest valcono worshiper. Indeed. You are a person who is willing to sacrifice everything to worship an unethical God

Whoa, wait a sec.
I got to this party a bit late.
How is giving us the gift of the Sabbath "unethical"?

 

[Barrd]

Why, oh why do people get so emotional about this one thing?
I honestly don't get it.
Could someone explain this to me, please?
I'm willing to listen to both sides...
It occurs to me that I have to be missing something here...something that you guys evidently think is pretty important.
Teach me...I am willing to learn...

 

[Phoneman777]

That's a nice theory, but since we know that 1) anyone claiming to be without sin is a liar, and 2) we are not under the old testament law, that argment goes right out the door.


And?


Since scripture teaches us that 1) the sabbath was merely a shadow pointing towards Christ, and 2) it is now perfectly acceptable for Christians to tread every day the same.. that argument goes... well... out the same door I guess.

And I have already pointed out that we are not under any of the 10 commandments. Being under them does not have any effect on whether or not you keep them. Read you bible instead of throwing out the same kind of strawmen over and over again

A Christian has no sin. Jesus carries the burden of his past sin and he presently "cannot sin for His seed remaineth in him." Liars who claim to have no sin are lost people who have deceived themselves in order to refuse Jesus in their lives and your application of this verse to the Christian is illegitimate, when you consider countless other Scriptures which teach that sin and sinners shall not enter the kingdom of God.

Only those who practice the law are known of by Jesus.

If we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments, please declare publicly which ones we are at liberty to break.

The Sabbath was not a shadow of anything. It was created in Eden, when there was no shadows, because all was light. The Sabbath is a memorial to Creation and will be kept for all eternity in the Heavenly Kingdom.

 

[Phoneman777]

Where does this idea that "we are not under the law" come from?
We are not justified by works of the law, that is quite true. Keeping the Sabbath will not save us any more than refraining from murdering our neighbor will...
Yet, for some reason, we think God is going to be more put out with us over the second than the first. You do know, I hope, that refraining from murder does not guarantee a pass through the Pearly Gates? There are loads of people who don't murder who are not going to heaven...atheists spring immediately to mind.
Breaking either of these commandments, whether it is disrespecting the Lord's Sabbath, or murdering your neighbor, is still sin. And we do know what the wages of sin is, don't we?
While we are not justified by works of the law, it is also true that faith without works is dead. Dead, as in, no life in it. If your faith has no life in it, it is dead faith...and dead faith will not save you.
Living faith obeys Christ.
That same Christ Who commands us to love one another as He loves us, also tells us that He is Lord of the Sabbath.
I honestly do not understand why there is any controversy here...

"Under the law" is interpreted to mean "obligated to keep the law" but Paul clearly says that NOT being under the law does not negate our obligation to keep the law: "What then, shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid!" Romans 6:15

He then goes on to drive the last nail in the coffin by saying, "No ye not to whom you yeild yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness".

Therefore, "under the law" should be interpreted "under the penalty of the law" for not keeping it. Those whose sins have been forgiven are not "under the law" because THEY ARE KEEPING THE LAW by the indwelling power of Jesus.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

A Christian has no sin. Jesus carries the burden of his past sin and he presently "cannot sin for His seed remaineth in him." Liars who claim to have no sin are lost people who have deceived themselves in order to refuse Jesus in their lives and your application of this verse to the Christian is illegitimate, when you consider countless other Scriptures which teach that sin and sinners shall not enter the kingdom of God.

Well, I guess that when both James AND John told us to confess our sins (James 5:16, 1 John 1:9) they should have attended Phoneman's Bible college and got it straight from the master.

Phoneman, your theology is warped. You need to stick to the entire truth of the Bible and not pick and choose certain verses that you think supports your theology while ignoring the rest, and most of all, stop mixing in a bunch of theories that the Bible does not teach us. The Bible does NOT say that we receive superhuman strength that keeps us from sinning. We ALL sin, which is something you need to acknowlege if you don't want to be labeled a liar and end up in the same lake of fire that you assume others will wind up in. The seed that remains in a Christian obviously keeps him from having the habitual practice of sinning as people of the world do, but not from sinning altogether. You need to sit down and have a long, hard think about what harmonizing scripture is all about.

If we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments, please declare publicly which ones we are at liberty to break.

Do you know what a loaded question is?

I suggest you look it up and get back to me when you acknowledge that you understand what it is. I tried to explain this to you before, but you seem to have a short memory.

The Sabbath was not a shadow of anything. It was created in Eden, when there was no shadows, because all was light. The Sabbath is a memorial to Creation and will be kept for all eternity in the Heavenly Kingdom.

Well let's look at what the Bible actually says:

"And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done." (Gen 2:3)

Ironically, according to you, God "rested from his work of creating" ... by creating the sabbath. Yeah.. that makes a whole lot of sense...

God didn't create the sabbath! What he did was bless the seventh day, which he obviously did knowing in advance what was ahead. You think he was concerned with a 24 hour day, fine, but what scripture says that the sabbath law was a shadow. Don't contradict that and hope that no one notices.

You should also bear in mind that the sabbath law, according to scripture, did not exist until it was given to those people who rebelled against him. It was preceded BOTH by the promise of the sabbath, and the gospel itself - which is the offer to be justified by faith. Justification through faith was therefore COMPLETELY separate from the sabbath commandment, which came 430 years AFTER the covenant of faith.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

"Under the law" is interpreted to mean "obligated to keep the law" but Paul clearly says that NOT being under the law does not negate our obligation to keep the law: "What then, shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid!" Romans 6:15

He then goes on to drive the last nail in the coffin by saying, "No ye not to whom you yeild yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness".

Therefore, "under the law" should be interpreted "under the penalty of the law" for not keeping it. Those whose sins have been forgiven are not "under the law" because THEY ARE KEEPING THE LAW by the indwelling power of Jesus.

Phoneman, the arguments you are using here (you know, the so-called "nails in the coffin") are non-sequiturs. They don't support your claims. Romans 6:15 does not say that we are obligated to keep the 10 commandments. If it did we would be thrown back into a state of hopelessness. All it says is that we should not use grace as an excuse to sin. Obviously!!!

Who here is saying that we should use grace in order to justify sin? No one! But does that mean that we are still under the 10 commandments?

No, it absolutely does not!

It simply means that our freedom should be used correctly, in accordance to the Law of Christ. Now we, still having a carnal body will not be able to live sinlessly, and therefore we still need grace. If we didn't then Paul would never have said "grace and peace to you". We STILL need grace because we have not yet attained perfection.

Now there is a difference between stumbling, and wallowing. What Paul was adressing was the attitude that it doesn't matter if I wallow because I am under grace. That is the attitude he was addressing. The fact that you try to twist this around to make it say that we are under a law that Paul taught us we are NOT under, is laughable.

Talk about tying yourself up in knots!!!!

 

[mjrhealth]

God's people today, by virtue of their claim that grace is a license to commit sin without fear of consequence.

No one has made this claim but you,

You yourself have admitted you cant keep the law no matter how hard you try, what part of futility do you not understand.

So by your very own words

Only those who practice the law are known of by Jesus.

Christ doesnt know you.

And that is a lie, you seem to be good at it for one who claims to love Jesus

In All His Love

 

[Barrd]

Gosh, I haven't seen twisting like this since my last high school dance...and I don't even want to think about how long ago that was!
It seems fairly obvious to me that Christ's death for our sins didn't give us carte blanche to simply ignore His commandments and merrily go on our way, breaking them whenever the urge hit us. No Christian would dare to even consider such a thing...would they?
What Christian, then, would say that we may:
Worship other gods?
Worship idols?
Use God's Holy Name inappropriately?
UH...let's get back to this one...
Disrespect his/her parents?
Murder?
Commit adultery?
Steal?
Tell vicious lies?
Long for what doesn't belong to him/her?

Wouldn't you feel a bit uncomfortable around Christians who suggested such things? I know I would!
Yes, I know that Jesus died for us, and that His blood is our salvation. I know that we have been set free from the burden of the law. We no longer bear the punishment for our sin...and I am grateful.
But I don't see anywhere where He abolished those commandments. If anything, He expanded on these commandments...yes, all ten of them. No longer are we simply under a command not to kill our neighbor...we may not even harbor angry thoughts against him. It is not enough to simply not commit adultery...we may not even look at our neighbor's spouse to lust after him/her...
Oh, but wait! Didn't the "thou shalt not covet" command already cover that?
Jesus made it very clear that sin begins in our hearts...

Oh, and that pesky fourth command. I did promise to get back to that one.
Did Jesus have anything to say about it?
Evidently, He did.
He did re-iterate the Sabbath command...and expand on it:

Luk 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Luk 6:2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
Luk 6:3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
Luk 6:4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?
Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Oh, and I do love these verses:

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

He could have said there "The sabbath was made for the Jews", since it was the Jews who were accusing Him...but He included all of mankind when He said "The sabbath was made for man"...what a wonderful gift!
And it should not escape us that Jesus calls Himself "Lord also of the sabbath"...

 

[Questor]

Gosh, I haven't seen twisting like this since my last high school dance...and I don't even want to think about how long ago that was!
It seems fairly obvious to me that Christ's death for our sins didn't give us carte blanche to simply ignore His commandments and merrily go on our way, breaking them whenever the urge hit us. No Christian would dare to even consider such a thing...would they?
What Christian, then, would say that we may:
Worship other gods?
Worship idols?
Use God's Holy Name inappropriately?
UH...let's get back to this one...
Disrespect his/her parents?
Murder?
Commit adultery?
Steal?
Tell vicious lies?
Long for what doesn't belong to him/her?

Wouldn't you feel a bit uncomfortable around Christians who suggested such things? I know I would!
Yes, I know that Jesus died for us, and that His blood is our salvation. I know that we have been set free from the burden of the law. We no longer bear the punishment for our sin...and I am grateful.
But I don't see anywhere where He abolished those commandments. If anything, He expanded on these commandments...yes, all ten of them. No longer are we simply under a command not to kill our neighbor...we may not even harbor angry thoughts against him. It is not enough to simply not commit adultery...we may not even look at our neighbor's spouse to lust after him/her...
Oh, but wait! Didn't the "thou shalt not covet" command already cover that?
Jesus made it very clear that sin begins in our hearts...

Oh, and that pesky fourth command. I did promise to get back to that one.
Did Jesus have anything to say about it?
Evidently, He did.
He did re-iterate the Sabbath command...and expand on it:

Luk 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Luk 6:2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
Luk 6:3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
Luk 6:4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?
Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Oh, and I do love these verses:

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

He could have said there "The sabbath was made for the Jews", since it was the Jews who were accusing Him...but He included all of mankind when He said "The sabbath was made for man"...what a wonderful gift!
And it should not escape us that Jesus calls Himself "Lord also of the sabbath"...

Ah...Twisting! It sure was fun, and no doubt a brilliant device of the Enemy to display our bodies provocatively at those school dances...but not so dangerous as all that slow dancing!

And all this slow dancing around the real statement of Yeshua to keep G-d's commandments:

Mark 12:28-33 (KJV)
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.


In those two summary commandments, to Love God and Love one another, are all that G-d desires us to do, and contain all the other commandments in the Torah. Yeshua spoke continuously about how to do them...to Jews, who presumably should know the Commandments. Yet we read the words of Yeshua to the Jews, and appropriate them to ourselves, yet pick and choose what we shall obey.

The Commandments given by G-d on Sinai, blasting the eardrums of any who were within ten miles, were G-d's commandments. Yeshua honored, respected, taught and obeyed the commandments. Of course, he was a Jew, so He had to, right? And us being Gentiles, are just covered by Yeshua's blood, and need do nothing...well, that sounds pretty weird.



Isaiah 56:3-8 (KJV)
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

We are those 'strangers and those others', saved by Yeshua's death, and made Judicially perfect by his blood.

But you know, the only way to actually show that salvation is to act like our Savior. Christians are in deep disrepute because they are seen as Hypocrites...those that say, and do not do...just like the Pharisees.

The Sabbath is one of the few topics that runs like a skein of true red yarn through every book of the Bible. If it were not important to God, He would have said so. Yeshua would have said so.

Sha'ul wanted, and got, a dispensation from the Torah as to Covenant obligation by those 'others' that we are. But since those others that were hearing Moses in the Synagogue were hearing them on the Sabbath, I can't help but wonder why everyone assumes, we can dispense with any of the Ten Commandments...not by obligation under covenant...but because G-d wants us to obey Him.

G-d wanted us to take hold of the covenant, and treat the Sabbath as a delight...which, being resting from what you do the other six days, is a delight.

Yeshua was always saying, "why do you say you love me, and do not do what I say?


Luke 6:46-49 (KJV)
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


All those under Yeshua are judicially free from the curse of sin...but we are not made sinless, because we are still human. When Yeshua comes, and we are caught up to him in the clouds as he descends from heaven to the Mount of Olives we will be made incorrupt, and with the commandments written into our hearts, and will no longer even think to disobey them.

I wish to please G-d and Yeshua now by attempting some response to the commandments that are given by G-d and Yeshua. I don't do it Jewishly, nor perfectly, but taking the Sabbath to be with my family, and have a day of celebration, reading and studying the Word, taking naps, seeing my friends, and avoiding creative work is not hard, nor are there rules for how we do it, except those given in the Torah: rest, do no work, and have a holy (seperate) gathering (convocation) in your tent (house).


Exodus 20:1-17 (KJV)
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Deuteronomy 5:12-14 (KJV)
12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Now, why is that so hard for people to grasp? Or is it merely rebellion, and doing your own will?

 

[Barrd]

Of all the commandments, I don't see why this is the one so many people have a problem with. I mean, I seriously do not get it. It is a day of rest, fapeetsakes...not a terribly hard thing to grasp.
I suspect the problem isn't so much in taking a day of rest, but in giving those around us a day of rest...especially if you happen to own a business and Saturday is your "big money" day. My son, for instance, is the assistant manager of a large grocery store here in town...a position he worked hard for. The store insists that he must work on Saturday. And he tells me that they make nearly twice as much money on Fridays and Saturdays, with Saturday being the top day, than they do any other day of the week, including Fridays. (One of his responsibilities is counting and depositing the day's profits after closing each evening.)
This being the case, of course they have no intention of closing their doors on Saturday.

This leads me to wonder...is this reluctance to recognize the Lord's Sabbath all about money?

 

[Barrd]

As you say, Christians are in deep disrepute because of the hypocrisy people see in us.
I think of Mahatma Ghandi, who said that he liked our Christ...but he did not like our Christians as we are so unlike our Christ.
To think that this man got close enough to realize that Jesus Christ was Someone he could like and admire...but then the behavior of those who claim to be Christ's followers pushed him away. We do have a lot to answer for.

I wonder, though....have we lost sight of what it means to be a Christian? To me, "Christian" means someone who is following Jesus Christ.
In His words:

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow isthe way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

IOW, if you are following a crowd you are going the wrong way.... :huh:

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Gosh, I haven't seen twisting like this since my last high school dance...and I don't even want to think about how long ago that was!

The Barrd, instead of just claiming that those who disagree with you are twisting things, why don't you point out exactly what you mean and handle each point specifically, instead of using faulty logic and pretending that your arguments haven't already been dealt with and totally disproven.

No one is saying that since we are under grace, we are now free to sin. Try to put a little effort into what is being said instead of parroting the same, tedious, SDA-strawmen all over again!

What scripture teaches us is not that we "may" sin, but that we are unable to do the opposite - THEREFORE the need for grace.

And no sooner did I point out Phoneman's non-sequiturs than you come here with yet another. Neither the verses from Luke, nor from Matthew say anything about Christians being under the obligation to keep the Mosaic observance of a 24-hour day. Jesus was speaking to Jews, LONG before anyone understood what Christianity was. Read the book of Acts and just check out the confusion among, not only new converts, but the apostles themselves! It was only years later the apostle Paul laid down the doctrine for the church and cleared up the confusion, when he pointed out that we are NOT under the Mosiac law, but under the law of Christ. Now, forces are at work to re-introduce that confusion into the church, but luckily enough we still have the writings of Paul as an anchor to keep us from going astray from the gospel message - that our righteousness is not based on law-keeping, but on faith.

What Paul pointed out is not that the Mosaic covenant has been abolished, but that it has been made obsolete for those that believe. The 10 commandments were at the core of that covenant and there is nothing anywhere in the NT whatsoever that indicates that Christians are under that law. A law is not just a set of guidlines to teach us what is right or wrong. A law defines a boundary that MUST not be crossed, and declares what punishment is to be meted out for crossing that boundary. If we are under these 10 laws then it follows that not keeping them makes us subject to the consequences - "condemnation" and "death" (Read 2 Cor 3).

However, Paul teaches us that we are NOT under condemnation DESPITE not being able to keep them. Read Romans 7 - 8:1.

Of all the commandments, I don't see why this is the one so many people have a problem with. I mean, I seriously do not get it. It is a day of rest, fapeetsakes...not a terribly hard thing to grasp.

People don't have a problem with the 4th commandment, SDAs and others who don't understand scripture, or simply ignore what it says, do. How many times are you people going to throw out the old "9 out of 10" argument without acknowledging that it is SCRIPTURE that makes a distinction here, NOT "people".

It is scripture that declares that the sabbath commandment was merely a shadow, not the reality in Christ.

It is scripture that teaches us that it is perfectly OK for someone to consider each day alike as long as we are fully convinced in our hearts.

Now I have challenged SDAs from the very start of this thread to prove their points by using scripture alone, and to date NONE of them have the courage to accept my challange. And the reason for this is that SDA theology can only be defended by adding theories to scripture. This despite the fact that scripture itself tells us that we are not to add to scripture.

Are you willing to meet my challenge and answer my questions, or are you going to continue to talk past everyone, just like Phoneman has done the entire time?

It's up to you...

 

[Phoneman777]

Well, I guess that when both James AND John told us to confess our sins (James 5:16, 1 John 1:9) they should have attended Phoneman's Bible college and got it straight from the master.

Phoneman, your theology is warped. You need to stick to the entire truth of the Bible and not pick and choose certain verses that you think supports your theology while ignoring the rest, and most of all, stop mixing in a bunch of theories that the Bible does not teach us. The Bible does NOT say that we receive superhuman strength that keeps us from sinning. We ALL sin, which is something you need to acknowlege if you don't want to be labeled a liar and end up in the same lake of fire that you assume others will wind up in. The seed that remains in a Christian obviously keeps him from having the habitual practice of sinning as people of the world do, but not from sinning altogether. You need to sit down and have a long, hard think about what harmonizing scripture is all about.


Do you know what a loaded question is?

I suggest you look it up and get back to me when you acknowledge that you understand what it is. I tried to explain this to you before, but you seem to have a short memory.


Well let's look at what the Bible actually says:

"And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done." (Gen 2:3)

Ironically, according to you, God "rested from his work of creating" ... by creating the sabbath. Yeah.. that makes a whole lot of sense...

God didn't create the sabbath! What he did was bless the seventh day, which he obviously did knowing in advance what was ahead. You think he was concerned with a 24 hour day, fine, but what scripture says that the sabbath law was a shadow. Don't contradict that and hope that no one notices.

You should also bear in mind that the sabbath law, according to scripture, did not exist until it was given to those people who rebelled against him. It was preceded BOTH by the promise of the sabbath, and the gospel itself - which is the offer to be justified by faith. Justification through faith was therefore COMPLETELY separate from the sabbath commandment, which came 430 years AFTER the covenant of faith.

Upp, it is John, not my "warped theology", who said a Christian "has no sin" - said in the context of "presumptuous, deliberate, iniquitous sin", in which no Christian should engage any sooner than a married man would deliberately have sex with another woman in front of his wife, let alone behind her back. Once you realize that we are to live in the presence of Christ, meaning with full awareness that He is watching us at all times, you will find it much easier to avoid the deliberate, known, iniquitous sin that you now so desperately attempt to excuse and thus be "without sin".

God most certainly created the Sabbath day in Eden because God called what He blessed in Eden "SABBATH" when He made it known to the Israelites at Sinai. "...for in six days the Lord made heaven, earth, and the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the Sabbath day, wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."

Question: How could the Lord rest on the Sabbath day in Eden as He claims in Exodus 20:11 KJV if it didn't come into existence until Sinai?

 

[Phoneman777]

No one has made this claim but you,

You yourself have admitted you cant keep the law no matter how hard you try, what part of futility do you not understand.

So by your very own words


Christ doesnt know you.

And that is a lie, you seem to be good at it for one who claims to love Jesus

In All His Love

What is this about me admitting we can't keep the law? I never said that, YOU and others like you claim that. I say that "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me" which includes living an obedient life. Those who claim they can't keep the law are merely seeking to excuse their choice to indulge the sin they love so much though they have full knowledge that doing so caused the ignominious torture and death of Jesus on the Cross. God makes a way of escape for every temptation, so don't blame your choice to remain weak when power to overcome is held out to you.