Sabbath-Keeping

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Phoneman777

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mjrhealth said:
Final Comment,

If you choose to carry that burden upon yourself, go ahead, that is between you and God, but do not lay unnecessary burdens upon those who have being set free in Christ.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

For those He sets free are free in deed.

In all His Love
You should really ask yourself why you regard God's Ten Commandments "burdensome" when 1 John 5:3 says that they "are not burdensome".
 

Phoneman777

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In other words, it wasn't due to any "carnal" laws that the New Covenant was given to us, but due to carnal people!
I'm not saying that we should interpret the word "carnal" in Hebrews 7: 16 KJV as "not holy, just, and good"- but we can't ignore that the verse refers to a "carnal commandment", and not "carnal people". A degree of separation from Paul's (contextual) description of the Ten Commandments as "holy, just, and good' in Romans 7:12 KJV is established by this.

The Bible refers to God's "perfect will" and His "acceptable will". His "perfect will" is that "all would be saved and all would come to a knowledge of the truth." His "acceptable will" can be described as the Deluge, which was necessary to preserve the holy line from which Jesus would come forth, lest the Antediluvians corrupt Noah and his family, thus cutting off that line. Would we argue that one "will" is any less according to God that the other? No, we wouldn't. In the same way, we can't make the claim that the use of "carnal" in this verse is to be interpreted in the strictest sense of the word nor can we redirect its focus, which is the commandment, toward that which is not the focus - people.
 

Phoneman777

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zeke25 said:
numenian,

You must realize who you are contenting with...These lost souls have never addressed a single Scripture nor refuted a single part of the teaching.

zeke25
Zeke, Jesus Christ alone sits upon the Judgment Seat to judge us. By your "lost souls" remark, you have taken the place of Christ and seated yourself down in His Judgment Seat. Ye know not what spirit ye are of because the spirit of Antichrist (Antichrist - "takes the place of Christ") leads men to do such as you are doing.
 

zeke25

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Galatians 2:4 KJV, "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ [Yahoshua], that they might bring us into bondage[.]"

1 John 1:8 KJV, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
 

Phoneman777

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zeke25 said:
Galatians 2:4 KJV, "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ [Yahoshua], that they might bring us into bondage[.]"

1 John 1:8 KJV, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
BTW, I'm still waiting for you to cease from your cowardice and boldly publicly declare that we may freely break the same Ten Commandments that you claim we don't have to obey.
 

Phoneman777

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In order to "prove" that NT believers are not obligated to keep the weekly seventh day Sabbath (though all of us will keep it every week for all eternity in the Kingdom), it is argued that the Two Great Commandments to love God and thy neighbor - aka "the law of Christ" - are the only laws that NT Christians are obligated to keep, and any time we find any NT verses directing Christians to obey any commandments (such as John 14:15 KJV), it is these Two Great Commandments to which these verses refer. Let's examine this critically.

1 John 5:2-3 KJV says "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." Now, if the above is true, then we should be able to replace "keep His commandments" with "love God and love thy neighbor", right? Let's try it:

"By this we know that we love the children of god, when we love God and (love God and love thy neighbor). For this is the love of God, that we (love God and love thy neighbor): and His commandments are not greivous."

The substitution really makes no sense. Now, let's substitute "keep His commandments" with actually listing the Ten Commandments and see if the verse makes sense:

"By this we do know that we love the children of God when we love God and (have no other gods before Him, do not engage in idolatry, do not blaspheme His name, etc). For this is the love of God: that we (have no other Gods before Him, do not engage in idolatry, do not blaspheme His name, etc.), and His commandments are not grievous."

Now, this substitution makes PERFECT sense, for love is demonstrated by action and therefore must be explained in terms of action, not just by some intangible, relative feeling. The Two Great Commandments are a summation of the Ten, not a replacement of the Ten.
 

mjrhealth

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Phoneman I break teh "law" every day, I have no problems with it, God has no problems with It, Jesus and those who belong to Him and know the truth have no problem with it. Christ never came with the LAw and a stick, He came full of grace. If f any man was to declare he never breaks te hlaw. would be a liar and a fool.

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

In all His Love
 

Phoneman777

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mjrhealth said:
Phoneman I break teh "law" every day, I have no problems with it, God has no problems with It, Jesus and those who belong to Him and know the truth have no problem with it. Christ never came with the LAw and a stick, He came full of grace. If f any man was to declare he never breaks te hlaw. would be a liar and a fool.

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

In all His Love
You believe that God's grace doesn't change the sinner, just God's opinion of the sinner. That is not Biblical. God's grace is more than pardon for sin, it is power to stop sinning and those who choose to continue in sin and refuse the Holy Spirit's pleading and power to overcome it will not inherit the kingdom of God.

What do you think of what I said about 1 John 5:2-3 KJV in post# 786?
 

mjrhealth

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No phoneman, the religious could never comprehend God. The religious where al labout making rules, teh ytook ten laws and turned them into 634, i think it is, now they take Gods grace and make it into some distored ugly monster. How simple would you like it to be,

If you must obey the law, than youe must be under the law, if you are under the law than you are a servant and in bondage to teh law, if you are in bondage to teh law than the law is yoyr master,
if the law is your master than is it your judge and you than have forsaken Christ and all his goos works for your own, filthy as rags". If teh law is more important to you than teh grace and mercy of Jesus than follow it. As for sin do you even begin to comprehnd what sin is i doubt you do, how many times have isuggrest you take things to Jesusm but you never do, Jesus liek God is dead to the religious he is just some character in a book that they use.

Mat_23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Jesus has cleaned teh inside of this cup, now the dealing with the outside..

I am made perfect in Christ, not in keeping any law.

You can speak of the LAW and how you keep it, and I will boast of Christ and how He keeps me.

In all His Love
 

zeke25

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Isaiah 57:15 KJV, " For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

1 John 1:8 KJV, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
 

numenian

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Trekson said:
[SIZE=12pt]Seventh Day Adventists and Messianic Jews are two of the many denominations that erroneously teach that proper Sabbath Keeping is vital to ones' salvation. They believe in observing the Sabbath the traditional Jewish way which begins at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday and restricts the amount and types of daily activities that they can do. They argue that the commandment to "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" (Ex. 20:8) was one of the ten commandments and if we obey the other nine commandments then we should honor the Sabbath in the old way as well.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]What was the original purpose of the Sabbath? It was to give man a day of rest from his labors as exampled by God when He rested on the seventh day of creation. When God told Moses to "keep it holy", He was expanding it to include worship of God as well on that day of rest. Throughout the Old Testament years the Pharisees increasingly made keeping the Sabbath very restrictive, for example, by limiting the number of steps you could walk.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Jesus, much to the consternation of the Pharisees, seemed to enjoy flaunting the Sabbath.

Matt 12:2-8: "When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath." 3 He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." (NIV)

Matt 12:10-12: "and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" 11 He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." (NIV)

John 5:10-11: and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat." 11 But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk." (NIV)

John 5:17-18: Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (NIV)

We can see by this last verse that God and Jesus are always working. Apparently they do not take a Sabbath rest. It would be a sad thing indeed if God closed up shop on the seventh day and refused to hear and answer prayers because He was resting. According to Strong's Concordance the word "holy" is defined as: "To be clean, to consecrate, dedicate, to keep, prepare, proclaim and to purify and sanctify oneself."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Let's take a look at what the bible has to say about these aspects of our holiness.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]1. Clean - Jesus says, "John 15:3 - "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you." (NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]2. Consecrate - Heb 10:20 - "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;" (KJV) Through His death we are consecrated unto God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]3. Dedicate - As Christians we dedicate our lives to His service.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]4. Keep - Phil 4:7 - "And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (KJV) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]5. Prepare - Heb 10:8-10: "First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Jesus prepared the way for us! We have been made holy by His sacrifice. Nothing we do will make us any holier than what Christ has done for us. When we stand before God, he isn't going to look at our works or whether we kept the law or not regarding our salvation. The only thing He will look for is whether or not we have the blood of His Son covering us, for our righteousness (our efforts to be law keepers) are as filthy rags before Him.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]6. Proclaim - By our living testimony we proclaim to the world our faith in Christ and every time we witness we are proclaiming the gospel.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]7. Purify - Titus 2:14 - "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]8. Sanctify - Heb 13:12 - "Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate." (KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Christ has accomplished all that was necessary to make us holy. Observing a day set aside for His honor can bring about nothing that hasn't already been done for us. The problem many people have is in not recognizing that in Heb 4:1-10: God redefined the Sabbath. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]1 "Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5 And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." 6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his." (NIV)

As verse 10 points out, we enter that Sabbath rest automatically when we believe in Him and make Him Lord of our life. Jesus, through His life and death did everything for us spiritually that the Sabbath was supposed to do. That is why He continually stated that "the Son of Man was Lord of the Sabbath." It is in and through Him that we rest and keep the Sabbath. Those who make a big deal about setting aside a certain day for worship are proclaiming that what Christ did for us wasn't good enough. They are saying that the Sabbath becomes holy through our observance of it and physically observing it the way the law originally intended. They have not yet realized that the New Covenant did away with all the past observances. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Christ gave us two laws to obey: Matt 22:36-40: "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]These two commandments are the only ones we as Christians need to concern ourselves with. The love we have for God and each other fulfills the requirements of the law as Paul explains in Rom 13:8-10: "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]If we obey the law of love for God and each other then we are fulfilling the requirements of the Sabbath rest and have no need of an additional day. To believe otherwise would be like telling God, "Ok, I followed you and obeyed you all week long but now because it's the Sabbath day, I really mean it this time." People who are Sabbath-keepers also fail to realize that our living bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. We now have God residing within us. We are the 24/7 residence of He who dwelt in the inner sanctuary of the Holy of Holies. That makes us the temple so how can going to another building on a special day make us any holier? What can a calendar day do for us that the Holy Spirit residing within us can't do? My answer is…absolutely nothing![/SIZE]
I thoroughly agree. This point is a non-brainer.
 

Phoneman777

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zeke25 said:
Isaiah 57:15 KJV, " For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

1 John 1:8 KJV, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV


"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:7-8 KJV
 

Phoneman777

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mjrhealth said:
I am made perfect in Christ, not in keeping any law.
We are not talking about obtaining salvation, which I fully agree with you is by grace through faith in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8 KJV). We are talking about the behavior that God demands without exception from us which Paul speaks of in the following verse (Ephesians 2:10 KJV)

A "straw man argument" is giving the appearance that you are refuting your opponent's point, when your opponent has not tried to make that point at all.
 

Phoneman777

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numenian said:
I thoroughly agree. This point is a non-brainer.
It is thought that Christians are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments as long as they keep the Two Great Commandments and that NT versus which enjoin commandment keeping to Christians only refer to the Two Great Commandments. If that is true, then in 1 John 5:2-3 KJV we should be able to replace "keep His commandments" with "love God and thy neighbor" as follows:

"By this we know that we love the children of God when we love God and love God and thy neighbor. For this is the love of God: that we love God and thy neighbor..."

Here's the same verse with "keep His commandments" replaced instead with the Ten Commandments:

"By this we know that we love the children of God when we love God and have no other gods before Him, nor engage in idolatry, nor blaspheme His name, etc. For this is the love of God: that we have no other gods before Him, nor engage in idolatry, nor blaspheme His name..."

Anyone can see that replacing "keep His commandments" with the Two Great Commandments makes no sense, but replacing them with the Ten Commandments makes perfect sense, and that is why the Two Great are simply a summation of the Ten, not a replacement of them.
 

mjrhealth

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God demands without exception
Which god are you speaking of , God demands nothing from man, You really should get to know Him insteadof leaning on your own understanding. Have you asked Him yet.

In all His Love
 

Phoneman777

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mjrhealth said:
Which god are you speaking of ?
This One Who said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments."

Obedience will be non-negotiable in the kingdom, yet you claim that it is optional down here? Surely, not Jesus, but the god of this world is responsible for that philosophy.
 

Phoneman777

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mjrhealth said:
Are you ever going to ask God what He thinks??

In all His Love
There is only one reason why anyone would ask God to clarify what He has already made crystal clear in His Word: "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: For it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be". Romans 8:7 KJV

Rather, we should pray that God would grant us a willingness to accept what the flesh wars against so that the spirit man would triumph, instead of deceiving ourselves that a soul yet enslaved to sin is heaven bound.
 

mjrhealth

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Or is it that some are afraid to ask lest all there reasoning may be wrong. Sin. teh only ones inslaved to sin are those who worry about sinning. Christ came to set us free but teh carnal mind keeps men in bondage to those things they are tryiing not to do. That is the flesh and that is bondage.

In all His Love
 

Phoneman777

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Mjrhealt said:
is it that some are afraid to ask lest all there reasoning may be wrong.
Eve ignored the crystal clear, plain, unadulterated commandment of God and sought out what she thought was "reasonable" counsel, didn't she? Those who object to the plain "thus saith the Lord" have always sought out some nebulous verse of Scripture to undermine it and prop up their own "reasonable" ideas.

The only ones inslaved to sin are those who worry about sinning.
  • Then why does James say that those who look into the law and then go away forgetful of it (an attitude that reflects yours) are not as those who continue to look therein and are blessed?
  • Why does Paul tell us to examine ourselves to see if we be in the faith?
  • Why does Jesus warn us to not be as the servant who believed his master delayed his return and began to commit sin?
  • Why does the writer of Hebrews tell us to be careful not to neglect our salvation through "transgression" and "disobedience", aka SIN???
 
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