Sabbath-Keeping

[face2face]

Hi F2F, Paul said that salvation by works causes the offense of the Cross to cease. In that statement, we see the crux of the entire issue.

Why would one find the Cross offensive? Certainly not because of the idea that by it He paid our sin debt, for which one among us that recognizes our need for forgiveness would find that offensive? No, the offensiveness of the Cross is that it destroys the lie held as truth since time immemorial that we may continue to indulge the sins we love while atoning for them through whatever ritualistic means we concoct, all to the exclusion of character transformation. It is character transformation from that which has been marred by sin into that of the spotless Son of God which the world has always found so offensive because it is too demanding and too extreme - it's "going to far". Today, the church has joined in the fray with the tirelessly repeated excuses as to why Christians cannot be transformed by the renewing of their minds and made fit for the reasonable service of obedience to His commandments that God desires of us.

Phoneman

Your reference in Galatians 5 is speaking to Paul’s opponents (Judaizers - namely those of the circumcision party) in Galatia who doubtless tried to embarrass him and denigrate his law-free gospel.

Paul replied “Brothers, if I am still [emphasis added] preaching circumcision, why am I still [emphasis added] being persecuted? (Gal 5:11).

Good question, yes?
Only how do you interpret it?

Did Paul favour treaching circumcision?
Or is he saying to his brothers, I am not actively teaching circumcision otherwise I would not be persecuted as I am!
Paul certainly once preached it aggressively pre-conversion, and you recall the single act with Timothy in Acts 16:3? Was Paul teaching circumcision as a prerequisite for salvation? Or was Paul inconsistent teaching it when it suited him, accepting it with some and denying it with others? Did he preach the gospel free of circumcision to the Gentiles, but he continued to preach circumcision to the Jews?

I know SDA's are neutral on circumcision, which is interesting given the importance of the token sign & command given to Abraham (before the Law).

Now I say this not to trip you up, for no doubt you hold an understanding of the matter, but to highlight a truth that certain commands of the Lord are removed, or taken out of the way that higher principles and precepts may be commanded. (This is really important to acknowledge in your reply)

Pauls understanding was really clear on this matter for the Gentiles. A Jewish element had failed to see that the Law (and all its requirements) had been replaced by the atoning work of the Lord Jesus, however, its forceful advocates were being subversive, as in the case of the Galatian churches. Closely attached though he was to the Philippians, the Apostle found it necessary to warn even them in blunt terms: “Look out for the dogs, look out for the evil-workers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. For we are the true circumcision, who worship God in spirit, and glory in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in the flesh” (Philippians 3:2, 3, RSV).

We also know from our reading that during the great work at Ephesus, Paul had problems with the Corinthians. Read 2 Corinthians 11:19–23 shows that he had personal enemies in Corinth who were Jews, and apparently were advertising the fact.

There is surely no difficulty in understanding why Christian Jews were able to exert so great an influence, for good or evil, among fellow disciples of Gentile origin. The latter all too often had a completely pagan background, knew nothing of the God of Israel and were profoundly ignorant of the Old Testament scriptures. Luke portrays just such a situation at Lystra, in Acts 14:8–20.

In conclusion, we find all over NT Scripture well intentioned believers trying to defend the Law and other such days, but ultimately Paul sides with those who find their expression of faith in and through Jesus Christ, in whom all the Law and Prophets came to find their complete fulfillment.

Keeping in mind Phoneman, Paul was ever patient with the ignorant pagans who knew little to nothing of the Old Testament, but how great a gift had they found and grasped with all their strength?

In the Masters care
F2F

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Because you questions arise from a flawed mindset. Saying things like, "The Ten Commandments were only given to the Jews" when Jesus Himself said the Sabbath was made from the entire human race, is one such example.

Jesus never said anything about the "entire human race". The word "man" could mean the entire human race, but it could also refer to one man, or a group of men. And since we can see from the REST of scripture that it cannot mean the enire human race (which I can prove with scripture), we can ONLY conclude that it was referring to the Jews.

Faulty logic again!

Why... when I can PROVE my points biblically, do you stubbornly refuse to admit this fact, you stiff-necked individual? Why are you trying everyone's patience here?

WHEN are you going to admit the fact that you CANNOT answer my questions.. instead of throwing out red herrings all the time!

 

[UppsalaDragby]

whosoever CONFESSETH AND FORSAKETH his sin shall have mercy.

I don't get this at all. You were asked to "confesseth" your sin. Rather than doing so, you lay out this verse that tells us that we SHOULD do so. So why not practice what you preach?

That verse does not answer the question you were given, and I cannot see anyone on this thread does not think we should forsake them. Can you???

So why don't you answer the questions we are asking you?

Do you sin or do you not sin?

It's not that difficult a question to answer... is it?

 

[face2face]

I didn't ask you where John mentioned ONE commandment, I asked you where he mentioned "the 10 commandments". That is central to this discussion because it involves the false argument that Christians are bound to keep the 10 commandments ... and yet ignore the rest. You have submitted verses with the insinuation that John's reference to "commandments" are restricted to, and only involve, the 10 commandments.

Should Christians worship idols? NO!!!

Should Christains steal? NO!!!
H
Does that mean we are under the 10 commandments? NO!!!

We are under a completely different law system that works differently than the old, and there is absolutely nothing in scripture that indicates the fact that the 10 commandments have been passed on to the New Covenant leaving everything behind. Being under the 10 commandments doesn't make anyone keep them, just as I have pointed out time and time again. The laws of the Old Covenant don't produce the kind of fruit that is required for a righteous life. The law of the New Covenant do.

So again, where is your supporting evidence that shows that whenever John mentions the word "commandments" he is referring to the 10 commandments?

The verity of this matter Uppsala is the commandments of the Master are those predominantly found in Matt Chapters 5-7 and throughout his beautiful parables. His living interpratation of the OT is truth.

It was only one time that the Law cursed him, during which he revealed to us how only in love can we walk enlightened, as no man loved as this man. What point is there in returning to the Law when its interpretation is standing before us?

Dear friends, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have already heard. 2:8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you which is true in him (Jesus) and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. 1 John 2:7-

The true, or real tabernacle and not the old one is now here. The old shadowy example is no longer required, though it was suitable for "teaching" of the coming new tabernacle, it can never offer the light found in the new.

No doubt you can see John's understanding of the 10 commandments is, in one case, the New Commandment does not "replace" the old, while in another way, it does. You see the old commandment had no substance in itself. It was powerless until it was given full expression in the life of the Lord Jesus Christ and so it became New.

Its not the commandment itself, which John is teaching, but the new force injected into the commandment as seen in Jesus Christ i.e sacrificial love. You cannot go back to the 10 commandments to see this new injected force - impossible!

John 13:34 reveals the whole Epistle is written on the life and commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ - the Word "Alethes" (Is True in verse 8) is in Jesus, shows all the old commandments are manifested in Christ - revealed, made known, opened in him.

This is a harmonious approach to the OT and NT Commandments.

I should add this is no new teaching you have heard. I thought it might be helpful in bringing the Old into the New ;)

In the Master
F2F

 

[face2face]

Of course, one would need to be convinced in their own mind that the "true light" found in the New Commandment could not and should not be compared to the dim shadow found in the Old Commandment.

On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.

OT Commands = Darkness (their designed purpose!)
NT Commands = Light

Consider the effect the Lord Jesus had on the old commandment? He gave substance to a command that was totally misinterpreted. Jesus illustrated the practical outworking of this command where today we are without excuse. He gave new meaning and power to the command which could not be seen previously.

The OT Command enabled lip service for the Jew said "he loved his neighbor", but held hatred in his heart. This was undetected by the priest or judge. This New Commandment is able to read the thoughts and intents of the heart to see if it be truly loving toward one's neighbor. This command is now enforcible by one who lived it perfectly in the flesh.

Anyhow John goes on to apply a test to see if we really and truly love our brother.

Many hear should meditate its power and meaning.

F2F

 

[Phoneman777]

I didn't ask you where John mentioned ONE commandment, I asked you where he mentioned "the 10 commandments".

That is central to this discussion because it involves the false argument that Christians are bound to keep the 10 commandments ... and yet ignore the rest. You have submitted verses with the insinuation that John's reference to "commandments" are restricted to, and only involve, the 10 commandments. And verses that say that we should not worship idols nor steal does not that mean we are under the 10 commandments.

We are under a completely different law system that works differently than the old, and there is absolutely nothing in scripture that indicates the fact that the 10 commandments have been passed on to the New Covenant leaving everything behind. Being under the 10 commandments doesn't make anyone keep them, just as I have pointed out time and time again. The laws of the Old Covenant don't produce the kind of fruit that is required for a righteous life. The law of the New Covenant do.

So again, where is your supporting evidence that shows that whenever John mentions the word "commandments" he is referring to the 10 commandments?

WB, Upp. The Ten Commandments are clearly repeated to Christians in the N.T., unlike the Mosaic Law which is referred to as "against us", "shadows", "nothing", and "carnal" ("carnal" due to the fact that they applied to those of the human family, while "the angels delight to do His commandments" which obviously include no false gods, theft, murder, adultery, and the rest of the "commandments of God", the Ten Commandments which He wrote with His finger in stone to demonstrate their eternal existence).

The fact that no one N.T. writer repeats all Ten Commandments to Christians or uses the phrase "Ten Commandments" is irrelevant and has nothing to do with what is truly central to the argument: that He Who ultimately is Author of the N.T. inspired all Ten Commandments to be repeated to us. Does John's lack of mentioning, "Do not covet" nullify the fact that God inspired him to repeat to Christians that we should keep the 2nd commandment which prohibits idolatry? Of course not.

Your rigorous criteria which you attempt to use to exempt Christians from our obligation to keep the Ten Commandments is an example of the extremes in logic to which people are willing to go to prove their argument. It is not unlike your idea that "Christians are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but we are not at liberty to act in a way that is contrary to them." We are obligated to keep the Ten Commandments because Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments."

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus never said anything about the "entire human race". The word "man" could mean the entire human race, but it could also refer to one man, or a group of men. And since we can see from the REST of scripture that it cannot mean the enire human race (which I can prove with scripture), we can ONLY conclude that it was referring to the Jews.

Faulty logic again!

Why... when I can PROVE my points biblically, do you stubbornly refuse to admit this fact, you stiff-necked individual? Why are you trying everyone's patience here?

WHEN are you going to admit the fact that you CANNOT answer my questions.. instead of throwing out red herrings all the time!

The word means "mankind", which is not "one man". Will "one man" be keeping the Sabbath in heaven? No, everyone will keep it because it was created for everyone. Sorry for being so "stiff-necked" but the Lord said that that we are to "keep His commandments and do those things which are pleasing in His sight."

I'm off to church, so I'll have to pick up this conversation later. Have a Happy Sabbath day today!

 

[Axehead]

When did "stone" become eternal?

Have a happy Jesus day (everyday).

 

[zeke25]

Hi Zeke
No, I am not an SDA or have I ever been one.
I jumped in as you put it, to induce a peaceful discourse about the Sabbath and the Mosaic Law but clearly the conversation has turned toxic and offensive.
UnChristlike accusations are flying and no, my commitment to this spirit is to withdraw and rest quietly until the proud learn to be silent. Immaturity is expressed in careless and thoughtless words which is the example here. Insults are the quickest way to lose credibility. Didn't your parents teach you this? Many here are not wearing their preants honour like a necklace, but trampling them underfoot.
I believe I am not alone in this view.
Great OP and thread just needs a little help thats all.
F2F

F2F,

When you mature and develop some discernment, come on back. Then you can repent of bearing false witness, and being a false judge.
But then, that will also require that you become more studied in the Scriptures and stop being a compromiser with demonic heresy and those who spit on the Blood of Christ. Either you oppose them or you are one of them and perpetuate the problem.

zeke25

 

[Phoneman777]

When did "stone" become eternal?

Have a happy Jesus day (everyday).

Good question: Jesus used many temporal things to explain eternal things, and we shouldn't be willfully ignorant of ancient object lessons that we still use today. Something "written in stone" is regarded just as much today as 3,500 years ago as having to do with an eternal, unchangeable nature of a thing or condition.

A "happy Jesus day everyday" is a wonderful idea, but is no substitute for fulfilling our obligation to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy by ceasing from working and coming together to participate in the "gathering"- which the work performed on the other six day according to the same Fourth Commandment prevents. Also, the blessing God place in the Sabbath, which he placed in no other day, is obtained by those who are careful to observe it.

 

[mjrhealth]

Yesterday when reading some posts. I got this awful feeling, so i asked the Lord what it was as I have experienced it before, what I received is " it this religious spirit crying,Do not touch Him He is mine".

Just like pharoh when God told Moses to tell Him " let my people go",but some choose not to leave Egypt and so remain slaves to Pharoh..

Enjoy yourself phoneman.

 

[face2face]

The command written in stone could never engrave the heart. That's why the New Commandment was required so believers could worship everyday in Spirit and Glory in the Lord Jesus Christ. One perishes over time the other is remembered eternally.
F2F

 

[Axehead]

Good question: Jesus used many temporal things to explain eternal things, and we shouldn't be willfully ignorant of ancient object lessons that we still use today. Something "written in stone" is regarded just as much today as 3,500 years ago as having to do with an eternal, unchangeable nature of a thing or condition.

A "happy Jesus day everyday" is a wonderful idea, but is no substitute for fulfilling our obligation to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy by ceasing from working and coming together to participate in the "gathering"- which the work performed on the other six day according to the same Fourth Commandment prevents. Also, the blessing God place in the Sabbath, which he placed in no other day, is obtained by those who are careful to observe it.

You can't be for real. You have been spending everyday of your life promoting a false doctrine.

Hammerstone either likes you or is receiving amusement from you.

 

[Axehead]

Good question: Jesus used many temporal things to explain eternal things, and we shouldn't be willfully ignorant of ancient object lessons that we still use today. Something "written in stone" is regarded just as much today as 3,500 years ago as having to do with an eternal, unchangeable nature of a thing or condition.

A "happy Jesus day everyday" is a wonderful idea, but is no substitute for fulfilling our obligation to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy by ceasing from working and coming together to participate in the "gathering"- which the work performed on the other six day according to the same Fourth Commandment prevents. Also, the blessing God place in the Sabbath, which he placed in no other day, is obtained by those who are careful to observe it.

You can't be for real. You have been spending everyday of your life promoting a false doctrine.

Hammerstone either likes you or is receiving amusement from you.

 

[face2face]

Axehead,

The SDA construct restricts Phoneman from being able to admit the Old Commands were are type (or shadow) of the New. I will be very interested to see how Phoneman explains away the Command to circumcise on the eight day. Or, how the old command spoke to a darkness which was fading away as the intensity of the New Light shone in the hearts of gentile believers.

My very close SDA friend eventually put off their fundementalist mindset which shackled his vision, now learning how to enjoy the liberties to serve fully the Lord uninhibited by a legalist viewpoint. While they are no longer an SDA he still admires their practices regarding the Sabbath.

The Apostle John said "let no man deceive you" as some did in the Apostles day (See Rom 6:1) seeing we are under Grace not Law. Law & the Old Commandments with all their penalties increased a knowledge of sin and highlighted the consequence which oft times was death. So I believe Phoneman believes justification cannot come by the Law, this is well testified in this thread further to this, we know we cannot neglect the Law of the Lord - there is a twofold justification in that we are made right by faith (a sinner from past and future sin) and the works of faith which is an outworking of the former.

So I percieve both sides hold elements of truth in this discussion, however while each side holds to their extreme views the truth is lost.

But this has long been the narrow way.

F2F

 

[mjrhealth]

I had a friend who is a JW. Had a call on his life, I spent many discussions showing Him God,he refused to leave his religion, he even knew God was calling him, seems I eas not the only one telling him. last timre i spoke to him as far as I am aware he still refuses that call.

Religion in all its forms is an abomination, put men into slavery just like egypt. Keeps them in fear of lossing their salvation,

does it not say that perfect Love casts out all fear.

Says much for what religion is.

In all His Love

 

[heretoeternity]

Seems all these sunday followers refuse to wake up and smell the coffee....they are following the pagan Roman system, and their denominations are known as "daughters of the harlot" in Revelation 17...they would sooner follow the papal decree which negates God's Holy word, and His holy commandments...as Jesus said "do not follow the traditions of man, but follow the commandments of God"..Mark 7, and Matthew 15....

Remember Salvation is through the Son of God, His grace and commandments, and not the sungod/satan and his days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, and all his doctrines which are non Biblical and of pagan origin.

 

[mjrhealth]

Seems all these sunday followers r

There are plenty of us who follow Christ and keep all days to God, every day is our sabath. God is not religious never has being.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

WB, Upp. The Ten Commandments are clearly repeated to Christians in the N.T., unlike the Mosaic Law which is referred to as "against us", "shadows", "nothing", and "carnal" ("carnal" due to the fact that they applied to those of the human family, while "the angels delight to do His commandments" which obviously include no false gods, theft, murder, adultery, and the rest of the "commandments of God", the Ten Commandments which He wrote with His finger in stone to demonstrate their eternal existence).

False! Both the 10 commandments (which according to scripture ARE the "Mosiac law") AND what YOU call the Mosaic law are repeated in the NT. And the 10 commandments in particular are described as being "against us", since Paul describes them as something that brings "condemnation" and "death". What could be more "against us" than that? The Old Covenant is a UNIT! Not something that you can chop into pieces at your leisure.

Furthermore SCRIPTURE declares that the 10 commandments were NOT eternal, something that you continuously ignore. Is it any point in me challenging you on this? Probably not, because you just ignore any and everything that you cannot address. That is a GOOD indication that the doctrine someone subscribes to is completely false.

The fact that no one N.T. writer repeats all Ten Commandments to Christians or uses the phrase "Ten Commandments" is irrelevant and has nothing to do with what is truly central to the argument: that He Who ultimately is Author of the N.T. inspired all Ten Commandments to be repeated to us. Does John's lack of mentioning, "Do not covet" nullify the fact that God inspired him to repeat to Christians that we should keep the 2nd commandment which prohibits idolatry? Of course not.

False! Not ONE N.T writer ever mentions the Sabbath commandment, given to the Jews, as if it was a commandment that should be "repeated" by Christians. If you disagree then let me know the verse that supports your claim. Are we under the Law of Christ that compells us to live moral lives? Yes! And that covers ALL the NT verses you care to mentions. Are we under the Law of Moses? No, we are not.

Your rigorous criteria which you attempt to use to exempt Christians from our obligation to keep the Ten Commandments is an example of the extremes in logic to which people are willing to go to prove their argument. It is not unlike your idea that "Christians are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but we are not at liberty to act in a way that is contrary to them." We are obligated to keep the Ten Commandments because Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments."

And where did Jesus say that his "commandments" to Christains were equivalent to the 10 commandments? Nowhere! You are twisting Jesus own words. Jesus commanded us to "believe" and to "love our neighbor". That is the law of Christ. Is the law of Christ consistent with the 10 commandments? Yes. Is the law of Christ equivalent to the 10 commandments? No! Not unless you are willing to stone people for breaking them.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

The word means "mankind", which is not "one man". Will "one man" be keeping the Sabbath in heaven? No, everyone will keep it because it was created for everyone. Sorry for being so "stiff-necked" but the Lord said that that we are to "keep His commandments and do those things which are pleasing in His sight."

I'm off to church, so I'll have to pick up this conversation later. Have a Happy Sabbath day today!

Wrong! You have been listening too much to completely false arguments given to you by SDAs. The word (anthrōpos) can be translated to ANY of the following meanings according to Strong's:

I.a human being, whether male or female

A.generically, to include all human individuals

B.to distinguish man from beings of a different order

i.of animals and plants

ii.of from God and Christ

iii.of the angels

C.with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or prompted to sin

D.with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity

E.with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul

F.with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God

G.with reference to sex, a male

II.indefinitely, someone, a man, one

III.in the plural, people

IV.joined with other words, merchantman


Funnily enough, "a human being" is FIRST on the list!


How many times do I have to prove you wrong???


Instead of trying to BLUFF your way through this discussion, why don't you try to support your arguments (you know, the way I do) rather than just making the sloppy claims that SDAs use to support their doctrine?

Will "one man" be keeping the Sabbath in heaven? No, everyone will keep it because it was created for everyone. Sorry for being so "stiff-necked" but the Lord said that that we are to "keep His commandments and do those things which are pleasing in His sight."

There is no verse in the entire Bible that says we will be keeping the Mosaic version of the sabbath in heaven. You have been deceived.