Sabbath-Keeping

[face2face]

So, what makes you think that these guys you're dialoguing with understand this? They teach that Abraham was given the Law and obeyed it. You have refused input that has been offered you. You have all the appearance of a deceiver who is really SDA and you're playing a game pretending to teach them something new. How do you propose to prove that you are not SDA?
Zeke25

zeke, I think on some level they understand that a person without the Law, OT Covenant and Ten Commandments (Like Abraham) is more than victorious by Christ Jesus. However, we as Christians need to appreciate the ministrations by the mouths of Angels are there now to teach us (like a school master) our need for Christ.
I don't feel compelled to prove anything to you other than ensuing these SDA members understand the tightrope they have chosen to walk.
I hope they don't fall ;)
F2F

 

[zeke25]

zeke, I think on some level they understand that a person without the Law, OT Covenant and Ten Commandments (Like Abraham) is more than victorious by Christ Jesus. However, we as Christians need to appreciate the ministrations by the mouths of Angels are there now to teach us (like a school master) our need for Christ.
I don't feel compelled to prove anything to you other than ensuing these SDA members understand the tightrope they have chosen to walk.
I hope they don't fall ;)
F2F

If you succeed I'll rejoice with everyone. But one of them has no opportunity to repent and the other may have crossed that fine line, but that is God's decision.
zeke25

 

[face2face]

Once we understand the the Law, Covenant and Commandments were fully realised (and enforced with spiritual vitality) in the sacrificial work of the Lord Jesus, we begin to see the power of God's extending principle of divine love was manifested, for "he that loves another has fulfilled the law" (Rom. 13:8; Gal. 5:14).

Any justification received will be revealed in a practical expression of the underlying principles of the Law, and in so doing, the believer sacrifice's himself for others.

This is why all those before the Law, OT Covenant and Ten Commandments can be saved in Christ Jesus by faith.

F2F

 

[Phoneman777]

In Spirit only...the letter killeth.

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Cor 3:6

You and Phoneman really need to understand Paul's reasoning here.



The very fact you both speak in terms of a "letter" reveals your understanding is darkened.

F2F

The Spirit does not killeth the Letter, it MAGNIFIES it. (Isaiah 42:21 KJV)

 

[Phoneman777]

"The old covenant, the Law, was a ministration of death"

Yes Phoneman without Jesus Christ and his sacrifice, The Law, The Covenant and The Commandments were all under a ministration of death.

This is true.

The Apostle clearly shows that Christ did away with the curse of the Law, though not the principles of the Law itself. The grace that is available in Christ for the forgiveness of sins through our faith accomplishes our justification. Recognizing that axiom and acknowledging that the Law was "just and good" Gentile believers are empowered by the Word to perform "the things contained in the law", and, though not being brought under the covenant established by the Law, nevertheless permit it to become "a law unto themselves". They "did not make void the law through faith" but, on the contrary, they "established it" (Rom 2:14; 3:31). In writing to the Galatians, Paul showed that Christ had redeemed both Jewish and Gentile believers from the curse of the law, "that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ" (Gal. 3:13-14). Paul's relationship to the Law was clearly set before the Corinthian brethren: "Unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; to them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ) that I might gain them that are without law".

He defines three classes of believers:

(1) The natural Jews who are under the law
(2) The proselytes to Judaism, who have put themselves under the law
(3) The Gentiles, who were "lawless".

We are interested in No. 3; the Gentile was never "under" the Law! True believers are not without hope, nor without law, for they accept the first and endeavor to live according to the spirit of the second (Read Rom. 2:13-15; 3:31; 13:10).

F2F

I was hoping for a response regarding the popular idea that "the Old Covenant was the Law", which I think I have shown plainly from Romans 3 to not stand the test of Scripture. Do you have a comment regarding the attempt to replace "the law" with "Old Covenant" in Romans 3:31?

The curse of the Law was not the Law itself, but the result of disobeying it. The "spirit of the law" versus the "letter of the law" is a false dichotomy. If one keeps the spirit of the law, he automatically keeps the letter of the law. One cannot say he is keeping the spirit of the Sabbath commandment by breaking the letter of the commandment which is to rest the seventh day. This is like a serial killer claiming to love his victims while conducting a violent murderous rampage against them.

 

[Phoneman777]

zeke, I think on some level they understand that a person without the Law, OT Covenant and Ten Commandments (Like Abraham) is more than victorious by Christ Jesus. However, we as Christians need to appreciate the ministrations by the mouths of Angels are there now to teach us (like a school master) our need for Christ.
I don't feel compelled to prove anything to you other than ensuing these SDA members understand the tightrope they have chosen to walk.
I hope they don't fall ;)
F2F

F2F, there's no tightrope, really, unless the reason for lawkeeping is the attempt to gain salvation. However, the Bible is clear that deliberate lawbreaking will disqualify us for kingdom citiizenship, which is such an unwelcome prospect that some here have gone to extreme lengths to deny the fate that awaits them for their antagonism against the Ten Commandments.

 

[mjrhealth]

Problem is if your righteousness does not come by the law, than you would not be so concened for the law.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

As it says, teh law has become a stumbling block to many.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

You see if your righteousness came by grace through faith you would be able to adimit that you are not perfect like the rest of us. The law is a 50 foot high jump for a 5 ft man to jump. unachieveable by man. That was teh whole purpose of Christ, but you still insist you can do it, when not even teh Jews could. But than those who keep the law have no need for christ as you im sure are well aware.

In all His Love

 

[heretoeternity]

MJRHealth and others...if you find God's law, the ten commandments is impossible to keep because it is fifty foot high and you are only 5 feet high..then you should really check what spirit is leading you, because it obviously is not God's Holy spirit...Apostle John said in 1st John...those who say they love Him and keep not His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them. He also said in 1st John...For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are NOT burdensome...Jesus said in Matthew 7 "then I will say to you depart from me I never knew you, you who practice LAWLESSNESS...and Paul said in Romans, do we make void the law through faith? God forbid, we establish the law"....

And remember always. Salvation is through the Son of God, His grace and commandments and NOT the sungod/satan and his doctrines and days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origin!

 

[mjrhealth]

LAWLESSNESS...and Pau

See this is your arguement, this is your reasoning behind your religion, that those who walk in Grace would purposely go rape and pillage, but we all know that love would do no such thing. So you see your whole reasoning is a slap in teh face of Christ as you try to justify you works of keeping the law. If it was a requiremnt of ours to live under the law as you propose we do, for if one keeps teh law one must be under it, than all that Christ did was in vain, it would not matter, God wasted His time, He had His son put to death for no pupose.

But you see you all freely admit without the law you could not, not sin, hence your reasoning that all without it would do such a thing. Those who walk in love dont. we have teh love of Christ in us, those without Christ need teh law for without love they would do such things. The law is their master, their judge and a stumbling block they keep falling over. again and again.

Oh how religion had blinded men,

Was Christs work all in vain??

Oh and I like a few on these forums worship God everyday, Christ is our rest from our works.

"He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a LIAR and the truth is not in him."

Oh we do keep the comandments of Christ we love God and we love our neighbour as ourselvs.

In all his love

 

[heretoeternity]

You should know that you can follow all the pagan days you wants ie sunday, dec 25th and easter, and do all the "worship" you can, but it is not going to earn you salvation...you cannot earn salvation, especially following those non Biblical pagan days...but if you are truly saved, then you will want to keep God's law.,,,His grace has saved you, and therefore you want to follow His law..as Paul says in Romans...it establishes the law....the Bible is very clear on keeping God's commandments...so I repeat, if you find them troublesome, then do as Apostle John says...you better check the spirit you are following, because it is NOT from God...

and remember always, Salvation is through the Son of God, His grace and commandments, and NOT the sungod/satan and his doctrines and days of sunday,dec 25th and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origin!

 

[mjrhealth]

See you asume that we all are alike, that God has some special day , who keeps easter I dont, who keeps christmas I dont, who wors saturday I dont, there are many who do not for we are in Christ, we dont belong to any religious idealogy, as Jesus said,

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Those who live in Christ are found righteous because of His works, we have none of our own, To Him be all teh Glory.

Salvation is through the Son of God, His grace

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You cant earn it.

In all His Love

 

[face2face]

The Spirit does not killeth the Letter, it MAGNIFIES it. (Isaiah 42:21 KJV)

To support your idea against the letter killing (condemning) those under it to death, almost as though you disagree with God Himself, you then take me to Isaiah 42:21 where God is pleased for the sake of his righteousness [or “justice”], as he was magnifying [the] law and was making [it] glorious.”

However....

Your quote actually feeds beautifully into an important truth which you are not yet willing to admit. The Lord here is contrasting his good intentions for the people with their present crisis (Isa 42:22). To demonstrate His just Character and attract the nations, the Lord wanted to showcase His law in and through Israel (As per Deut 4:5–8). However, and here is where you let us down - like you and I, Israel disobeyed (Isa 42:24) and failed to carry out their commission.

When you speak in terms like "which commandment can we break?" & "We must keep the engraved Commandments" as though they are still in the stone - enshrouded with darkness ; you fail to acknowledge that the "letter" of the OT Covenant and Commandments Israel failed - you also omit to acknowledge the "letter" of the New Covenant and Commandments you have failed in your commission to obey.

Clearly you are struggling to reconcile the OT and NT Covenants / Commands / Laws

I look forward to seeing you try.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I was hoping for a response regarding the popular idea that "the Old Covenant was the Law", which I think I have shown plainly from Romans 3 to not stand the test of Scripture. Do you have a comment regarding the attempt to replace "the law" with "Old Covenant" in Romans 3:31?

Given the context of Rom 3 & 4 do you believe you can be justified by the Law or OT Covenant?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

f
The curse of the Law was not the Law itself, but the result of disobeying it.

Your answer to my above question will help you with your above statement.

The "spirit of the law" versus the "letter of the law" is a false dichotomy.

False dichotomy you say....interesting.

The Apostle Paul didn't think so

Where no grace was available the law only made transgressors and existed only in the letter.

Paul says, “The letter kills, but the spirit gives life.”

Even if the Spirit were "added" to the letter and you believed the letter would not kill you; hoping the spirit would give you life (Hmmm) - you can still practice the commandments (yes), not by our own strength but by the gift of your Savior! (Dont fail in one point!)

It concerns me, you are not willing to speak in Biblical terms regarding the OT Covenant / OT Commandments / OT Laws all of which are written in letters (in stone) and all capable of killing both the obediant and the sinner. God will have Mercy on whom He will have Mercy.

If one keeps the spirit of the law, he automatically keeps the letter of the law.

And Vice a Versa?

Even though he may never have read the OT Law / Commandments?
If you say yes...then I agree with this!

Now you are getting close to understanding the Spirit.

One cannot say he is keeping the spirit of the Sabbath commandment by breaking the letter of the commandment which is to rest the seventh day.

Did David break the letter of the Law in Luke 6 / 1 Sam 21? While upholding the Spirit? i.e Mercy and Grace?

Jesus answered by pointing back in their history to when David … and his companions were hungry and entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat (Luke 6:3–4; see 1 Sam. 21)

Could David have said "I am breaking the letter, but upholding the Spirit?"

If you say no! then you make Christ to say David was sinning in taking the show bread and therefore Jesus and his dsciples were also sinning by working to eat ears of corn on the Sabbath. Either way you are in a bind - you must make Spirit = Mercy and Law = Death. (The Law here could have killed a hungry righteous man if obeyed)

Either way the Spirit can be upheld while the letter is broken because its interpration was in darkness veiled until Christ came.

If our understanding is stretched beyond its current limitations we are no doubt drawing nearer to God ...are we not?

F2F

 

[face2face]

F2F, there's no tightrope, really, unless the reason for lawkeeping is the attempt to gain salvation. However, the Bible is clear that deliberate lawbreaking will disqualify us for kingdom citiizenship, which is such an unwelcome prospect that some here have gone to extreme lengths to deny the fate that awaits them for their antagonism against the Ten Commandments.

When Christians speak in absolute terms as you do (black & white) you run the risk of souding like a law keeper - walking a tight rope in a gusty wind! While your intentions may be to convey yourself as being faithful.

You misrepresent those here Phoneman and as such:

1. They are antagonised by your attitude in that it presents in an arrogant manner. (Condescending and judgemental)
2. They actually love the Spirit behind the Ten Commandments which is manifested in the faith and works of the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. You assume you have never deliberately broken Gods Law & Commandments = Pride.

Even David sinned presumptuously though he prayed earnestly that it might not happen in his life = Received Mercy and became humble and contrite in heart

If I am to except your above exegisis then David should be denied the Kingdom and remain as dust.

If only I could meet you in person we could share a far deeper faith than you currently present.

F2F

 

[mjrhealth]

And David even though he murdered a man to gain His wife,

Act_13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

 

[Phoneman777]

Problem is if your righteousness does not come by the law, than you would not be so concened for the law.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

As it says, teh law has become a stumbling block to many.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

You see if your righteousness came by grace through faith you would be able to adimit that you are not perfect like the rest of us. The law is a 50 foot high jump for a 5 ft man to jump. unachieveable by man. That was teh whole purpose of Christ, but you still insist you can do it, when not even teh Jews could. But than those who keep the law have no need for christ as you im sure are well aware.

In all His Love

I'd believe you if James didn't tell you and me to continue looking in the law as one looks continually into a mirror, if Paul didn't say that we are examine ourselves to see if we be in the faith according to that which makes our sin known to us: the law. The idea that grace demands that we forget about the law is shown by these two verses and many others to be a false, albeit high sounding, idea.

 

[Phoneman777]

See this is your arguement, this is your reasoning behind your religion, that those who walk in Grace would purposely go rape and pillage, but we all know that love would do no such thing. So you see your whole reasoning is a slap in teh face of Christ as you try to justify you works of keeping the law. If it was a requiremnt of ours to live under the law as you propose we do, for if one keeps teh law one must be under it, than all that Christ did was in vain, it would not matter, God wasted His time, He had His son put to death for no pupose.

But you see you all freely admit without the law you could not, not sin, hence your reasoning that all without it would do such a thing. Those who walk in love dont. we have teh love of Christ in us, those without Christ need teh law for without love they would do such things. The law is their master, their judge and a stumbling block they keep falling over. again and again.

Oh how religion had blinded men,

Was Christs work all in vain??

Oh and I like a few on these forums worship God everyday, Christ is our rest from our works.

Oh we do keep the comandments of Christ we love God and we love our neighbour as ourselvs.

In all his love

No, you do not keep the commandments of Christ because Christ is the God Who wrote the Ten Commandments at Sinai, understand? It was CHRIST Who said that the seventh day Sabbath is to be kept holy and will be kept holy for all eternity. You can't claim to have true love for God while knowingly breaking any of the first four commandments and neither can you claim the same towards your neighbor if you break any of the last six.

 

[Phoneman777]

See you asume that we all are alike, that God has some special day , who keeps easter I dont, who keeps christmas I dont, who wors saturday I dont, there are many who do not for we are in Christ, we dont belong to any religious idealogy, as Jesus said,

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Those who live in Christ are found righteous because of His works, we have none of our own, To Him be all teh Glory.


Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You cant earn it.

In all His Love

Will you please stop arguing against "salvation by works" because no one here is claiming that to be the case. You have been told this several times.

 

[Phoneman777]

When Christians speak in absolute terms as you do (black & white) you run the risk of souding like a law keeper - walking a tight rope in a gusty wind! While your intentions may be to convey yourself as being faithful.

You misrepresent those here Phoneman and as such:

1. They are antagonised by your attitude in that it presents in an arrogant manner. (Condescending and judgemental)
2. They actually love the Spirit behind the Ten Commandments which is manifested in the faith and works of the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. You assume you have never deliberately broken Gods Law & Commandments = Pride.

Even David sinned presumptuously though he prayed earnestly that it might not happen in his life = Received Mercy and became humble and contrite in heart

If I am to except your above exegisis then David should be denied the Kingdom and remain as dust.

If only I could meet you in person we could share a far deeper faith than you currently present.

F2F

Jesus spoke in such terms of absolutism. "He that is not with Me is against Me." "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." "No man can serve two masters." Too many to list, really.

 

[Phoneman777]

Given the context of Rom 3 & 4 do you believe you can be justified by the Law or OT Covenant?

A simple yes or no will suffice.



Your answer to my above question will help you with your above statement.

False dichotomy you say....interesting.

The Apostle Paul didn't think so

Where no grace was available the law only made transgressors and existed only in the letter.

Paul says, “The letter kills, but the spirit gives life.”

Even if the Spirit were "added" to the letter and you believed the letter would not kill you; hoping the spirit would give you life (Hmmm) - you can still practice the commandments (yes), not by our own strength but by the gift of your Savior! (Dont fail in one point!)

It concerns me, you are not willing to speak in Biblical terms regarding the OT Covenant / OT Commandments / OT Laws all of which are written in letters (in stone) and all capable of killing both the obediant and the sinner. God will have Mercy on whom He will have Mercy.

And Vice a Versa?

Even though he may never have read the OT Law / Commandments?
If you say yes...then I agree with this!

Now you are getting close to understanding the Spirit.

Did David break the letter of the Law in Luke 6 / 1 Sam 21? While upholding the Spirit? i.e Mercy and Grace?

Jesus answered by pointing back in their history to when David … and his companions were hungry and entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat (Luke 6:3–4; see 1 Sam. 21)

Could David have said "I am breaking the letter, but upholding the Spirit?"

If you say no! then you make Christ to say David was sinning in taking the show bread and therefore Jesus and his dsciples were also sinning by working to eat ears of corn on the Sabbath. Either way you are in a bind - you must make Spirit = Mercy and Law = Death. (The Law here could have killed a hungry righteous man if obeyed)

Either way the Spirit can be upheld while the letter is broken because its interpration was in darkness veiled until Christ came.

If our understanding is stretched beyond its current limitations we are no doubt drawing nearer to God ...are we not?

F2F

FTF, are you still claiming that the Old Covenant is the Law in light of what I've shown you in Romans 3:31 where I'd demonstrated that "Old Covenant" cannot replace the words "the Law"? Let's stick to one point at a time, if you don't mind.