Salvation is by Grace through Faith.

[GRACE ambassador]

Those to whom Grace has never been bestowed are forever unable to understand it.......

OR: "God Sends the rain on the just AND the Unjust" (GRACE?), And:

the Unjust refuse to acknowledge "God Gives them what THEY DO NOT deserve!"

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Salvation is by grace not of works.

Salvation is by grace, not by works of merit. For if one could keep the law perfectly he would have no sin and those who are sinless have no need for grace therefore his reward would be of debt (Romans 4:4) and could boast of his flawless law keeping works. Yet no one's obedience will be perfect leaving them in need of grace.

Paul would not contradict himself by eliminating obedience in Romans 4:5 yet turn right around and require obedience to be justified in Romans 6:17-18. For it is the faith onlyist creating the contradictions. How can Abraham be one who "worketh not" per Romans 4:5 when he DID DO obedient works per Hebrews 11:8,17)? It's is so obvious that Paul is not eliminating obedience in Rom 4:5 but if fiaith oblyist would read the context and stop taking v5 out of context and adding their ideas to it, they could see that Paul was eliminating the work of flawless, perfect law keeping required by the law of Moses for one to be justified by that law......

v1 "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh?" according to the flesh means what did Abraham gain by his own efforts? Nothing, for he sinned therefore could not be justified by the OT law of Moses which required sinless perfection to be justified.

v2 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God." if Abraham could be justified by works (keeping the law perfectly) then he could boast of his perfect law keeping. He would not boast towards God but to his own effort in perfect, flawless law keeping.

v3 "For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness." the scriptures do not say Abraham kept the law perfectly therefore boasted of his flawless works but instead Abraham believed God.

v4 "Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt." to the one who works and keeps the law perfectly therefore has no sin, then he is not in need of grace but his reward is owed him for his flawless, perfect law keeping.

v5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness." it can clearly be seen from the CONTEXT of verses 1-4 that "him that worketh not" is the one who did not work to keep the law flawlessly, perfectly but instead believed.

Therefore "worketh not" does not mean "obeyeth not" for Abraham was one who did obey (Hebrews 11:8,17). Abraham therefore was not one who tried to gain acceptance with God by perfect flawless law keeping (he "worketh not") but gained acceptance with God by a faithful obedience in obeying God's will.

v6 "Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works," again, the CONTEXT tells us "apart from works" means apart from flawless, perfect law keeping. Both Abraham and David sinned therefore could not be justified by the OT law that required those flawless works. Then how were they justified apart from doing flawless works? By an OBEDIENT FAITH.

v7 "saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered." does God unconditionally forgive iniquites? Of course not for Paul already said in Romans 2:4-5 the disobedient, impenitent will be lost. So unto whom does God "reckoneth righteousness apart from flawless works'? The obedient man whose obedient faith repents of his sins.

Paul's point to the Jews in the context was by taking Abraham, the father of the Jews, and show the Jews how to be justified like Abraham and that is by having an obedient faith APART from circumcision, APART from perfect, flawless law keeping. By taking two of the most well known men among the Jews and proving these two men were justified by faith, then the Jews no longer could make an appeal to justification by the OT law nor force the Gentiles in keeping the OT law (Acts 15:1-2) for justification is by obedient faith NOT by flawless, perfect law keeping.

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation is by grace, not by works of merit. For if one could keep the law perfectly he would have no sin and those who are sinless have no need for grace therefore his reward would be of debt (Romans 4:4) and could boast of his flawless law keeping works. Yet no one's obedience will be perfect leaving them in need of grace.

Paul would not contradict himself by eliminating obedience in Romans 4:5 yet turn right around and require obedience to be justified in Romans 6:17-18. For it is the faith onlyist creating the contradictions. How can Abraham be one who "worketh not" per Romans 4:5 when he DID DO obedient works per Hebrews 11:8,17)? It's is so obvious that Paul is not eliminating obedience in Rom 4:5 but if fiaith oblyist would read the context and stop taking v5 out of context and adding their ideas to it, they could see that Paul was eliminating the work of flawless, perfect law keeping required by the law of Moses for one to be justified by that law......

v1 "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh?" according to the flesh means what did Abraham gain by his own efforts? Nothing, for he sinned therefore could not be justified by the OT law of Moses which required sinless perfection to be justified.

v2 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God." if Abraham could be justified by works (keeping the law perfectly) then he could boast of his perfect law keeping. He would not boast towards God but to his own effort in perfect, flawless law keeping.

v3 "For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness." the scriptures do not say Abraham kept the law perfectly therefore boasted of his flawless works but instead Abraham believed God.

v4 "Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt." to the one who works and keeps the law perfectly therefore has no sin, then he is not in need of grace but his reward is owed him for his flawless, perfect law keeping.

v5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness." it can clearly be seen from the CONTEXT of verses 1-4 that "him that worketh not" is the one who did not work to keep the law flawlessly, perfectly but instead believed.

Therefore "worketh not" does not mean "obeyeth not" for Abraham was one who did obey (Hebrews 11:8,17). Abraham therefore was not one who tried to gain acceptance with God by perfect flawless law keeping (he "worketh not") but gained acceptance with God by a faithful obedience in obeying God's will.

v6 "Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works," again, the CONTEXT tells us "apart from works" means apart from flawless, perfect law keeping. Both Abraham and David sinned therefore could not be justified by the OT law that required those flawless works. Then how were they justified apart from doing flawless works? By an OBEDIENT FAITH.

v7 "saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered." does God unconditionally forgive iniquites? Of course not for Paul already said in Romans 2:4-5 the disobedient, impenitent will be lost. So unto whom does God "reckoneth righteousness apart from flawless works'? The obedient man whose obedient faith repents of his sins.

Paul's point to the Jews in the context was by taking Abraham, the father of the Jews, and show the Jews how to be justified like Abraham and that is by having an obedient faith APART from circumcision, APART from perfect, flawless law keeping. By taking two of the most well known men among the Jews and proving these two men were justified by faith, then the Jews no longer could make an appeal to justification by the OT law nor force the Gentiles in keeping the OT law (Acts 15:1-2) for justification is by obedient faith NOT by flawless, perfect law keeping.

Salvation is by grace apart from works. You add your works, you add your merit, no way around it !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Salvation is by grace apart from works. You add your works, you add your merit, no way around it !

You can repeat this a million times but it fails to prove you point. Your position is wrong:

1) because the type of work Paul was speaking about in Rom 4:1-6 that does not justify is working to keep the law perfectly, flawlessly whereby one's reward is of debt and not of grace. Hence when Paul said Abraham "worketh not" that cannot include obedience for Abraham DID have obedient works (Hebrews 11:8,17). Therefore when Paul said Abraham "worketh not" he is saying Abraham did not try to gain favor with God by perfect, flawless, sinless works but by a faithful obedience.

2) obedience to God's will is never, ever called a work of merit.



"In the New King James Version, the word works appears 128 times and work 70 times, for a total of 198 times. There are many different kinds of works discussed in the New Testament, but concerning the matter of justification, there are basically two classes of works - those excluded and those included. Notice first some that are not a part of justification: works of the Law (Gal. 2:16; 3:10), works of one’s own righteousness, or human merit (Tit. 3:5), works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21), works of the devil (1 Jn. 3:8) and works of darkness (Rom. 13:12). Now, notice some works that are included: belief in Christ is the work of God, because He has commanded it, not because He does it for us (Jn. 6:29; Rom. 10:17), works of righteousness (Acts 10:34,35; Ps. 119:172), works of faith (1 Thess. 1:3; Rom. 1:5; 16:26) and works of obedience (Jas. 2:21). Other passages could be given, but these are sufficient to show that if no work is necessary for justification, faith in Christ is not necessary, nor is obedience to the commands of God."
Justification by Works
(my emp)

 

[brightfame52]

You can repeat this a million times but it fails to prove you point. Your position is wrong:

1) because the type of work Paul was speaking about in Rom 4:1-6 that does not justify is working to keep the law perfectly, flawlessly whereby one's reward is of debt and not of grace. Hence when Paul said Abraham "worketh not" that cannot include obedience for Abraham DID have obedient works (Hebrews 11:8,17). Therefore when Paul said Abraham "worketh not" he is saying Abraham did not try to gain favor with God by perfect, flawless, sinless works but by a faithful obedience.

2) obedience to God's will is never, ever called a work of merit.



"In the New King James Version, the word works appears 128 times and work 70 times, for a total of 198 times. There are many different kinds of works discussed in the New Testament, but concerning the matter of justification, there are basically two classes of works - those excluded and those included. Notice first some that are not a part of justification: works of the Law (Gal. 2:16; 3:10), works of one’s own righteousness, or human merit (Tit. 3:5), works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21), works of the devil (1 Jn. 3:8) and works of darkness (Rom. 13:12). Now, notice some works that are included: belief in Christ is the work of God, because He has commanded it, not because He does it for us (Jn. 6:29; Rom. 10:17), works of righteousness (Acts 10:34,35; Ps. 119:172), works of faith (1 Thess. 1:3; Rom. 1:5; 16:26) and works of obedience (Jas. 2:21). Other passages could be given, but these are sufficient to show that if no work is necessary for justification, faith in Christ is not necessary, nor is obedience to the commands of God."
Justification by Works
(my emp)

Salvation is by grace apart from works. You add your works, you add your merit, no way around it ! Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Salvation is by grace apart from works. You add your works, you add your merit, no way around it ! Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Again, "not of works" refers to works of merit not obedience to God. If one could keep the law perfectly then he would merit his salvation and could boast about his own efforts in perfect law keeping. Yet obedience to God is never called a work of merit. Hence men are to work out their salvation by obeying God's will and obedience earns nothing for it is not a work of merit.

 

[brightfame52]

Again, "not of works" refers to works of merit not obedience to God. If one could keep the law perfectly then he would merit his salvation and could boast about his own efforts in perfect law keeping. Yet obedience to God is never called a work of merit. Hence men are to work out their salvation by obeying God's will and obedience earns nothing for it is not a work of merit.

If you condition salvation on you doing something, it defaults to work merit salvation ! But Salvation is by Grace through faith and not of works. It doesnt depend on man to do something, and God given faith realizes that.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If you condition salvation on you doing something, it defaults to work merit salvation ! But Salvation is by Grace through faith and not of works. It doesnt depend on man to do something, and God given faith realizes that.

If what you say were accurate, then Noah building the ark was a work of merit therefore God OWED him salvation from the flood, it was not of grace,

Naaman dipping 7 times in the river was a work of merit, therefore God OWED him the cleansing of his disease, it was not of grace.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire, God will have vengeance upon those who have no works of merit.

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth works of merit enters the kingdom.

It is easy to see that Luther's faith onlyism is antagonistic to, polar opposite of what the Bible teaches. Luther condemned Catholicism for going to the extreme in selling indulgences, yet Luther overreacted to it by going to the opposite extreme with his faith only.

============================

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If what you say were accurate, then Noah building the ark was a work of merit therefore God OWED him salvation from the flood, it was not of grace,

Naaman dipping 7 times in the river was a work of merit, therefore God OWED him the cleansing of his disease, it was not of grace.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire, God will have vengeance upon those who have no works of merit.

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth works of merit enters the kingdom.

It is easy to see that Luther's faith onlyism is antagonistic to, polar opposite of what the Bible teaches. Luther condemned Catholicism for going to the extreme in selling indulgences, yet Luther overreacted to it by going to the opposite extreme with his faith only.

============================

All of those men were saved eternally because of their faith before they did one iota of work.

Their works were a result of their faith. Not added to it..

Noah had his physical life saved, but his eternal life in Christ was completed before he even started to build the ark.

You need to step aside my friend. You seem to think your works of righteousness will save you. Where they will not.

Jesus warned you. How many will come in that day professing all their mighty works on jesus name. And he will reply depart from me for I NEVER KNEW YOU….

To many people think they know God and are on the right path. And have no understanding of who and what God is and are not known by him

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

All of those men were saved eternally because of their faith before they did one iota of work.

Their works were a result of their faith. Not added to it..

Noah had his physical life saved, but his eternal life in Christ was completed before he even started to build the ark.

You need to step aside my friend. You seem to think your works of righteousness will save you. Where they will not.

Jesus warned you. How many will come in that day professing all their mighty works on jesus name. And he will reply depart from me for I NEVER KNEW YOU….

To many people think they know God and are on the right path. And have no understanding of who and what God is and are not known by him

No, your are avoiding the point.

In each of these cases God required obedience to His will in order for one to receive His free gift, that is God made His free gift CONDITIONAL upon man's obedience to His will. And not in any case was the obedience said to have earned the free gift. Whether God's free gift was salvation from the flood, healing of a disease or physical malady or salvation, meeting God's required prerequisites never earned God's free gift but the obedience was necessary BEFORE receiving the free gift.

Naaman did not first unconditionally receive the free gift of healing THEN obeyed by dipping 7 times after he was already healed
Noah did not first unconditionally receive the free gift of salvation from the flood THEN obeyed by building the ark after the flood
The blind man did not first unconditionally receive his sight, THEN obeyed by going and washing in the pool after he already receive sight.

John 6:32-33 the manna was a free gift of God from heaven but it took obedience to God (Exodus 16:16) they gather the manna in order to receive its nutritional benefits. Likewise God's life giving bread is His free gift from heaven to man, but it takes man's obedience to receive the benefits of the bread.

Israel did not FIRST unconditionally receive the benefit from the manna, did not FIRST eat the manna THEN go about gathering it.
No obedience, doing nothing they would not have the bread to eat and would starved to death.

Faith only (Calvinism) puts the cart before the horse in wrongly thinking one FIRST receives God's free gift THEN afterwards obey God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, your are avoiding the point.

Your avoiding the truth of the gospel.

In each of these cases God required obedience to His will in order for one to receive His free gift, that is God made His free gift CONDITIONAL upon man's obedience to His will. And not in any case was the obedience said to have earned the free gift. Whether God's free gift was salvation from the flood, healing of a disease or physical malady or salvation, meeting God's required prerequisites never earned God's free gift but the obedience was necessary BEFORE receiving the free gift.

Naaman did not first unconditionally receive the free gift of healing THEN obeyed by dipping 7 times after he was already healed
Noah did not first unconditionally receive the free gift of salvation from the flood THEN obeyed by building the ark after the flood
The blind man did not first unconditionally receive his sight, THEN obeyed by going and washing in the pool after he already receive sight.

John 6:32-33 the manna was a free gift of God from heaven but it took obedience to God (Exodus 16:16) they gather the manna in order to receive its nutritional benefits. Likewise God's life giving bread is His free gift from heaven to man, but it takes man's obedience to receive the benefits of the bread.

Israel did not FIRST unconditionally receive the benefit from the manna, did not FIRST eat the manna THEN go about gathering it.
No obedience, doing nothing they would not have the bread to eat and would starved to death.

Faith only (Calvinism) puts the cart before the horse in wrongly thinking one FIRST receives God's free gift THEN afterwards obey God.

Dude, faith only is not calvinism. Are you so stuck in your self righteous war against a certain belief that it keeps you blind to the truth.

IF IT IS OF GRACE IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS.

You keep ignoring this passage

We are saved BY GRACE. Period

Faith is just the mean by which we RECIEVE this grace,.

Thats why paul said. For it is BY GRACE WE HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith.

It is not faith that saved us, it is Gods grace. It is THROUGH FAITH that we recieve it.

Why are you trying to earn grace through works? You can;t earn grace. all you can do is earn or merit a reward, a wage, a salary etc etc.

 

[brightfame52]

If what you say were accurate, then Noah building the ark was a work of merit therefore God OWED him salvation from the flood, it was not of grace,

Naaman dipping 7 times in the river was a work of merit, therefore God OWED him the cleansing of his disease, it was not of grace.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire, God will have vengeance upon those who have no works of merit.

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth works of merit enters the kingdom.

It is easy to see that Luther's faith onlyism is antagonistic to, polar opposite of what the Bible teaches. Luther condemned Catholicism for going to the extreme in selling indulgences, yet Luther overreacted to it by going to the opposite extreme with his faith only.

============================

It is truth, Salvation is by Grace not works !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It is truth, Salvation is by Grace not works !

Not works of merit. Obedience is not a work of merit.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Your avoiding the truth of the gospel.



Dude, faith only is not calvinism. Are you so stuck in your self righteous war against a certain belief that it keeps you blind to the truth.

IF IT IS OF GRACE IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS.

You keep ignoring this passage

We are saved BY GRACE. Period

Faith is just the mean by which we RECIEVE this grace,.

Thats why paul said. For it is BY GRACE WE HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith.

It is not faith that saved us, it is Gods grace. It is THROUGH FAITH that we recieve it.

Why are you trying to earn grace through works? You can;t earn grace. all you can do is earn or merit a reward, a wage, a salary etc etc.

You refuse to acknowledge that 'not of works' refers to works of merit, not obedience to God's will.

Grace alone does not save as Paul shows in Romans 6. Just because the Christian is saved by grace does not allow the Christian to continue in sin..a Christian is dead to sin. And the only solution to not sinning is "obedience unto righteousness" for lack of obedience has one serving "sin unto death". Salvation therefore requires God's grace and man's obedience and obedience is not a work of merit. You continue to purposefully define obedience in a non-Biblical way which proves fallacy of your position.

Yo

 

[brightfame52]

Not works of merit. Obedience is not a work of merit.

Same thing, not of works. If you condition salvation on anything you do, it makes that which you did a reward, a wage, a work of merit !

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You refuse to acknowledge that 'not of works' refers to works of merit, not obedience to God's will.

Grace alone does not save as Paul shows in Romans 6. Just because the Christian is saved by grace does not allow the Christian to continue in sin..a Christian is dead to sin. And the only solution to not sinning is "obedience unto righteousness" for lack of obedience has one serving "sin unto death". Salvation therefore requires God's grace and man's obedience and obedience is not a work of merit. You continue to purposefully define obedience in a non-Biblical way which proves fallacy of your position.

Yo

You refuse to acknowledge that you are working t merit salvation.

Not in obedience to Gods will

Gods will is whoever sees and believes in the lord will never perish but live forever.

 

[brightfame52]

eternallygrateful

Gods will is whoever sees and believes in the lord will never perish but live forever.

Did you know that seeing here is spiritual and comes from the new birth ?

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Otherwise man is spiritually dead and has no spiritual sight at all.

 

[OzSpen]

Salvation is by grace apart from works. You add your works, you add your merit, no way around it ! Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

brightflame,

To what does "THAT not of yourselves" refer in Eph 2:8-9?

Oz

 

[Enoch111]

To what does "THAT not of yourselves" refer in Eph 2:8-9?

It refers to salvation. Salvation begins and ends with God. Therefore we are justified by GRACE through faith. It is God's grace that brings salvation to all men (Titus 2:11). Thus God imputes righteousness to the one who believes on Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

brightflame,

To what does "THAT not of yourselves" refer in Eph 2:8-9?

Oz

Salvation by grace through faith !