"Salvation" is the gift of Eternal Life - it's FOREVER.

[GodsGrace]

IF THEY COULD FALL AWAY

you might have a point. But since they can not. Your point is mute.

That is the point the author is making, If a person returns to the law. they are at the point they will never even attempt to return to Christ. Because they have been there done that. Thay will have hardened their heart beyond the point they could be renewed.

Nope. That's not what Heb 6 says.

And that's not what I said either.

Eternal life is eternal. It is given by Gods mercy and is obtained by grace through faith.

You've written above what Hebrews 6 is about:
"That is the point the author is making, If a person returns to the law. they are at the point they will never even attempt to return to Christ. Because they have been there done that. Thay will have hardened their heart beyond the point they could be renewed."

The problem is that the Jews were returning to the Law.
This cannot happen today because we are not under the Law but under Grace. (I don't think I need verse).
The Jews of that time which Hebrews 6 is referencing is speaking to Jews that were RAISED under the Law and were worried that GRACE could not save them.

We of today do not face this problem, do we?

Return to the law after seeing grace is a slap in the face of God...

 

[bbyrd009]

you and your sons will be here with me

 

[Renniks]

The problem is that the Jews were returning to the Law.
This cannot happen today because we are not under the Law but under Grace.

But people do return to the law. They just change it a bit. They try to earn salvation by wearing certain clothes, attending church more often, putting money in the plate, doing good deeds and so on. If one relays on these things to save them, they have created their own law and bypassed the cross.

 

[marks]

But people do return to the law. They just change it a bit. They try to earn salvation by wearing certain clothes, attending church more often, putting money in the plate, doing good deeds and so on. If one relays on these things to save them, they have created their own law and bypassed the cross.

I've seen many versions of a NT "Law", that is, aside from the Law of Christ, the Law of love.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OK
So you did read my post.
Those are not my ideas, BTW.
I'm not that intelligent or scholarly...
But there are those that are and Hebrews CANNOT mean that one cannot return to God.

Again, are you saying one can become lost AGAIN, and then CANNOT return to God?

Is Hebrews 6 all you have to go on?

And please don't get so personal as to tell me I don't know what grace is.
You don't know what I know or don't know.
Thanks.

heb 6 says those who fall away can not be renewed.

all I can do is go by what it isaid

as far as eternal life. and it being what God gave us the moment we had faith in him. I have given you many verses about that

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You've written above what Hebrews 6 is about:
"That is the point the author is making, If a person returns to the law. they are at the point they will never even attempt to return to Christ. Because they have been there done that. Thay will have hardened their heart beyond the point they could be renewed."

The problem is that the Jews were returning to the Law.

Yep they were returning to the law. A religion which stated one can fall away, and must be resaved (renewed to repentance) again.

there are many churches whih in effect teach this very same thing, it is applicable to them as well.

This cannot happen today because we are not under the Law but under Grace. (I don't think I need verse).
The Jews of that time which Hebrews 6 is referencing is speaking to Jews that were RAISED under the Law and were worried that GRACE could not save them.

We of today do not face this problem, do we?

Yes we do have this problem, any come out of legalistic churches, and decide to try this "faith" doctrine out. then return to the doctrine which their true faith relied in.

They will never return to faith.

Return to the law after seeing grace is a slap in the face of God...

Saying the cross is not enough and we can lose his precious gift based on his mercy and his work is a slap in the face. it is no different than being a jew who is trying to get to god via the law. It is still al works based gospel.

 

[GodsGrace]

I could care less what they say, But I can tell you the mainstream church (the roman catholic church) that started in the 300's did not teach OSAS. and they burned any writings, and imprisoned anyone who believed otherwise.

So if your going to use history to try to disprove eternal security. Well your wasting your time. History will nt show it because the power of Rome would have shut it down if it did exist.

You SHOULD care what the Apostles taught.
You should care what those they taught also taught to others.
Who do you think wrote the N.T.?
If you don't care what THEY said, then you don't care what the N.T. says.

Here is what they said about OSAS:

We take earnest1477 heed in these last days; for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becometh the sons of God. That the Black One1478 may find no means of entrance, let us flee from every vanity, let us utterly hate the works of the way of wickedness. Do not, by retiring apart, live a solitary life, as if you were already [fully] justified; but coming together in one place, make common inquiry concerning what tends to your general welfare. For the Scripture saith,

“Woe to them who are wise to themselves, and prudent in their own sight!”1479 Let us be spiritually-minded: let us be a perfect temple to God. As much as in us lies, let us meditate upon the fear of God, and let us keep His commandments, that we may rejoice in His ordinances. The Lord will judge the world without respect of persons. Each will receive as he has done: if he is righteous, his righteousness will precede him; if he is wicked, the reward of wickedness is before him. Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called [of God], we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord.

And all the more attend to this, my brethren, when ye reflect and behold, that after so great signs and wonders were wrought in Israel, they were thus [at length] abandoned. Let us beware lest we be found [fulfilling that saying], as it is written, “Many are called, but few are chosen.”
Barnabas 70-130AD



Those who disobey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.
Irenaeus 180AD


Barnabas was a candidate for the N.T.
Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp, taught by John the Apostle


And Paul himself said:
1 Corinthians 9:27
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

 

[GodsGrace]

But people do return to the law. They just change it a bit. They try to earn salvation by wearing certain clothes, attending church more often, putting money in the plate, doing good deeds and so on. If one relays on these things to save them, they have created their own law and bypassed the cross.

I find that they are taught this by their church.
I knew a woman that wouldn't wear pants because only men should wear pants.
Most of these persons are most probably saved or they wouldn't go to such extremes to remain in their church.
It's not their fault if they are taught improperly.
This is why it's important to know the N.T. and not to depend on others to dictate it to us.

But, yes, I do agree with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yep they were returning to the law. A religion which stated one can fall away, and must be resaved (renewed to repentance) again.

there are many churches whih in effect teach this very same thing, it is applicable to them as well.

Yes we do have this problem, any come out of legalistic churches, and decide to try this "faith" doctrine out. then return to the doctrine which their true faith relied in.

They will never return to faith.




Saying the cross is not enough and we can lose his precious gift based on his mercy and his work is a slap in the face. it is no different than being a jew who is trying to get to god via the law. It is still al works based gospel.

EG,
You're obsessed with works.
I never mention works.
I do say that we must obey God.

I've posted some writings for you...It would be good to learn some church history
and know what the first Christians believed.
Who do you think knows more about what Jesus taught the Apostles?
Them or your pastor??

I'm very sorry that you and others are not interested in early Christianity.


And, as always, we will have to agree to disagree.
Re OSAS that is. I think we agree on most other doctrine.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You SHOULD care what the Apostles taught.
You should care what those they taught also taught to others.

I do.

You want me to look 200 years after the apostles left.

Lets stick to what the apostles taught, what say you? And not what a bunch of men 200 years later decided.. ok? What say you?

Who do you think wrote the N.T.?
If you don't care what THEY said, then you don't care what the N.T. says.

Here is what they said about OSAS:

We take earnest1477 heed in these last days; for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becometh the sons of God. That the Black One1478 may find no means of entrance, let us flee from every vanity, let us utterly hate the works of the way of wickedness. Do not, by retiring apart, live a solitary life, as if you were already [fully] justified; but coming together in one place, make common inquiry concerning what tends to your general welfare. For the Scripture saith,

“Woe to them who are wise to themselves, and prudent in their own sight!”1479 Let us be spiritually-minded: let us be a perfect temple to God. As much as in us lies, let us meditate upon the fear of God, and let us keep His commandments, that we may rejoice in His ordinances. The Lord will judge the world without respect of persons. Each will receive as he has done: if he is righteous, his righteousness will precede him; if he is wicked, the reward of wickedness is before him. Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called [of God], we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord.

And all the more attend to this, my brethren, when ye reflect and behold, that after so great signs and wonders were wrought in Israel, they were thus [at length] abandoned. Let us beware lest we be found [fulfilling that saying], as it is written, “Many are called, but few are chosen.”
Barnabas 70-130AD



Those who disobey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.
Irenaeus 180AD


Barnabas was a candidate for the N.T.
Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp, taught by John the Apostle


And Paul himself said:
1 Corinthians 9:27
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

lol. There were false teachers in the time of the NT authors.

Paul spoke of being disqualified to teach, not being disqualified to receive eternal life.

He knew outside the grace of God he was disqualified. He also knew to be absent from the body was to be present wiht the lord.

You should stop listening to these people. and listen to the actual authors themselves

 

[Renniks]

lol. There were false teachers in the time of the NT authors.

Yes and I'm pretty sure the major one was fatalistic, similar to Calvinism.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG,
You're obsessed with works.

Nope I am obsessed with the false teaching of grac eplus works for salvation. Please get it right

I never mention works.
I do say that we must obey God.

Obeying God is works. Yet you say you never mention works.

I've posted some writings for you...It would be good to learn some church history
and know what the first Christians believed.
Who do you think knows more about what Jesus taught the Apostles?
Them or your pastor??

lol. Are you catholic?

Do you think I blindly follow my pastor? I do not blindly follow any person. I take what they say, and test by using the word of God. to test and see if what they say is true.

Why don;t you try that? The jews listened to their leaders and fathers. And look at what it did for them. they crucified their messiah

so I am looking and learning from history. I am making sure I do nt make the same mistake people have been making for 4000 years now. (probably more)

I'm very sorry that you and others are not interested in early Christianity.

I am interested in the bible and what Jesus and the biblical writers (OT and NT) words which were inspired by God himself.

I am sorry you would rather listen to men, who have written outside the word of God and gave their opinion. which are not inspired

And, as always, we will have to agree to disagree.
Re OSAS that is. I think we agree on most other doctrine.

Sadly, NOSAS or OSAS is the gospel. You can get all the other doctrines correct. if you do not get the gospel correct.... Well as paul said, if anyone teaches any other gospel than what I have taught, let him be accursed.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes and I'm pretty sure the major one was fatalistic, similar to Calvinism.

Actually the major one was legalistic or licentious

you had the jews on one hand, and you had the easy believers on the other hand

Prety much the same as we have today, although the legalists are more than just jews.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think you got your quotes messed up....
Must leave now.

You said obeying God is a work.
That's pretty unbelievable EG.

I consider obeying God (to the best of my ability) is an honor.

You like what the N.T. writers wrote?
Then listen to them.

Starting with Jesus:

John 8:51
51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

John 10:27-28
27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

John 14:15
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love...


Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

Luke 11:28
But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

 

[GodsGrace]

You say OSAS or NOSAS is the gospel....

Isn't the good news that Jesus died so that we may live with Him forever?

Here is the gospel in miniature form:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


1 Corinthians 15:1-5
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

No speaking of OSAS there...

The gospel speaks about HOW to be saved....
a doctrine you believe or do not believe does not save a person.
Belief in Jesus saves.


ooops!
this is for @Eternally Grateful

 

[GodsGrace]

The ECFs do not give opinion.
And please remember that there was no TV, internet or newspapers back then.
Think of how the letters were distributed....
100 years was nothing back then.
John wrote his gospel and letters in about 90AD...

When Barnabas was writing John was still alive.
When Polycarp was writing, John, his teacher, was still alive.

When Ignatius of Antioch was writing, Peter, his teacher, was still alive.

When Clement of Rome was writing, Paul, his teacher, was still alive.

And keep in mind that the bible was not gathered together into what we have today
till the 300's.

That's it EG.
Not much more to say.

@Eternally Grateful

 

[Renniks]

Actually the major one was legalistic or licentious

you had the jews on one hand, and you had the easy believers on the other hand

Prety much the same as we have today, although the legalists are more than just jews.

I was talking about the gnostics.

 

[Taken]

Scripture disagrees with you.
We are seated in the heavenly places now. It's not just a future event.

Knowing is one thing, Manifestation is another thing.

 

[Renniks]

Knowing is one thing, Manifestation is another thing.

Splitting hairs.

 

[Taken]

Jesus will accept anyone at any time.
THIS is the Good News...otherwise there is no good news.

The only sin that is not forgiveable is the sin of unbelief.
The sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit...
Of course, if we repent, even that sin can be forgiven.

Woe are we if we cannot go to God with sorrow and repentance for our sins!

1 John 2:1
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

You did not listen or verify...

Matt 7:
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 12:
[10] And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.