Salvation Through Baptism ???

[Marymog]

Jesus draws the line in the sand on who will be saved and who will not be saved in John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Hi,

You said “....Man is saved by grace through faith not faith and water baptism.“

His commandment is that we must be baptized. If we disobey Him will we loose our salvation?

 

[mailmandan]

Hi,

You said “....Man is saved by grace through faith not faith and water baptism.“

His commandment is that we must be baptized. If we disobey Him will we loose our salvation?

Where does the Bible say that we “must” (water baptized or condemned) be baptized or else? How could you lose your salvation for not being water baptized if you must be water baptized to be saved in the first place?

 

[Candidus]

Hi,

You said “....Man is saved by grace through faith not faith and water baptism.“

His commandment is that we must be baptized. If we disobey Him will we loose our salvation?

I would say that the Scriptures are specific here; salvation is by grace through faith, and not of works. (Eph. 2: 8-9). Yet, we are told to keep His commandments (1 Jn. 2:3-4), and if we don't, we lie about knowing Him. Obedience is expected, and that if you are saved, you will be in fellowship with other believers and not forsake the assembling together (Heb. 10:25). That by example and command, believers should be water baptized. That if we rely on the law for our salvation, we will be severed from Christ and He will be of no effect to us! (Gal. 5:4).

These seem like contradictions, but they are not. One thing is made clear, salvation is by grace through faith. The question is, what is saving faith? Jesus said that He is the Vine, and we are the branches. Every branch in Him will bear much fruit! If one does not bear much fruit, He will prune the dry branch and throw it into the fire. (Jn. 15).

We have the Cause and effect. Jesus is the Cause of our salvation. Salvation is by grace and not by works, yet, if we are in Him, He will cause us to bear much fruit. The fruit is the result, not the cause of salvation. The cause of our separation from God is our sin and rebellion. God provides a way to deal with the penalty of sin, yet in order to receive forgiveness we must cease our rebellion to Him. This is saving faith... turning to God in repentance and faith, and relying solely on His grace for our salvation.

Where does Church attendance, baptism, and being His witnesses come into this? As fruit! As evidence of our surrender to His sovereignty over our lives. Once a believer that has surrendered to God knows that God wants their testimony through water baptism, they will want to obey and have a "good conscience." (1 Peter3:21). Not to "get saved," but to please their Lord. In the same way, Church attendance does not save you, but it is beneficial to the believer, and it is the will of God that we be in fellowship one with another. The question then becomes, in the Early Church becoming a Christian was a death sentence. To be publicly baptized was to show your rejection of the world and your past, testifying to the cleansing and purification that your received by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Baptism was no small thing as it is today in most parts of the world, except in Islamic Countries. What suspicion would be upon someone that claims "I know Christ" yet refuses to obey Him? That they would not be water Baptized or be part of the assembling of believers for corporate worship? In the First century, no congregation would have accepted someone claiming to be a Christian that refused the offer to be baptized.

We are told that we cannot save ourselves, but it is of grace (Eph. 2:8-9), that if we are in Christ that we will bear much fruit (Jn. 15; Eph. 2:10), that anyone claiming to know Christ and not keeping His commandments is a liar (1 Jn. 2: 3-4), and that we (Christians) will know other Christians "by their fruit." (Matt. 6:13-27). It is not a question whether someone is saved by grace through faith, and that by adding something to grace, voids grace (Rom. 11:6), and those that seek some law or requirement to get "saved" have severed themselves from Christ and grace (Gal 5:4). What constitutes a saving faith? One that obeys Christ as He works in and through us to good works! (James 2:18-24). Any true believer in Christ should joyfully submit to baptism on the grounds that is a command of Christ. Not to gain salvation, but to obey their Lord. How can one know the command of Christ to obey such a simple submission, adamantly refuse to do their Savior's request? How can one be said to know Jesus, love Christ, to serve Him, to believe Him, or to obey Him, and continue to snub the command? Is such faith a saving faith?

 

[Candidus]

Where does the Bible say that we “must” (water baptized or condemned) be baptized or else? How could you lose your salvation for not being water baptized if you must be water baptized to be saved in the first place?

Faith in water is strong in many people; just like many Jews believed that circumcision saved them.

 

[Tong2020]

Sorry Tong but talking to you is like talking to a brick wall so I am signing out. Have a nice unbaptized day.

Unbaptized day? Well, ......

If ad hominem is your way out......

Tong
R0708

 

[JunChosen]

If water can save you.. If water can "wash away your sin", then every time you take a shower or bath, you would be born again.

Not quite.

That's exactly my point! Please make sure you are understanding someone's post before responding.

To God Be The Glory

 

[marksman]

I know too well what you have commented that is to compare scripture with scripture to get context however, in the case of the thief on the cross, there is no other scripture to compare with, except we see the very God of the universe exercising His sovereign authority to save anyone He wishes. After all salvation is of God!

For example, the term "thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" in Daniel 12:12 is not found anywhere else in Scripture, yet I know the interpretation of it. Do you?

To God Be The Glory

The subject matter was salvation and baptism. Not the thief on the cross. He was put forward that salvation and baptism are not necessarily the case.
Therefore the requirement is to check all verses that talk about salvation and baptism, not verses that talk about the thief on the cross as in are there others that show people not being baptised before death? The answer is of course no, so no doctrine can be formed because of that one event.

 

[mjrhealth]

Can any one point put where the 12 Apostles where baptized...

 

[Behold]

The subject matter was salvation and baptism. Not the thief on the cross. He was put forward that salvation and baptism are not necessarily the case.
Therefore the requirement is to check all verses that talk about salvation and baptism, not verses that talk about the thief on the cross as in are there others that show people not being baptised before death? The answer is of course no, so no doctrine can be formed because of that one event.

When talking to people who are deceived and believe that water washes away their sin, its a good thing to let them realize that the Thief on the Cross, was not water baptized.
Its also a good thing to let them know that the Apostle to the "GENTILES" in the "time of the GENTILES", said that "Christ sent me not to water baptize".

 

[Marymog]

Where does the Bible say that we “must” (water baptized or condemned) be baptized or else? How could you lose your salvation for not being water baptized if you must be water baptized to be saved in the first place?

The bible says we must obey him or else. He and the apostles says baptize and be baptized.

 

[mailmandan]

The bible says we must obey him or else. He and the apostles says baptize and be baptized.

Show me one verse in the Bible that says, "whoever is not water baptized will be condemned." The Bible says whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18)

 

[Candidus]

The subject matter was salvation and baptism. Not the thief on the cross. He was put forward that salvation and baptism are not necessarily the case.
Therefore the requirement is to check all verses that talk about salvation and baptism, not verses that talk about the thief on the cross as in are there others that show people not being baptised before death? The answer is of course no, so no doctrine can be formed because of that one event.

One single Biblical example that shows someone saved apart from water baptism is sufficient proof that baptism is not essential to get saved. It is a factor that just cannot be evaded if one is to truly "checking out all the verses on baptism." One does not get a full view of baptism by reading just baptism verses, but by reading examples and verses about salvation by grace through faith.

 

[Candidus]

Can any one point put where the 12 Apostles where baptized...

I can however, show that they all drove around in a Honda!

The Bible says that they were all in one Accord! (Acts 1:14)!

Should I make what you drive a salvation issue?

 

[mailmandan]

One single Biblical example that shows someone saved apart from water baptism is sufficient proof that baptism is not essential to get saved. It is a factor that just cannot be evaded if one is to truly "checking out all the verses on baptism." One does not get a full view of baptism by reading just baptism verses, but by reading examples and verses about salvation by grace through faith.

That one example is sufficient for me. In Matthew 27:39-44, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blaspheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief on the cross had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized, but was still saved.

 

[user]

Show me one verse in the Bible that says, "whoever is not water baptized will be condemned." The Bible says whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18)

Did you read the verse that you provided ... lol

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized = shall be saved

 

[user]

we see that the thief on the cross had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized, but was still saved.

Everyone prior to Jesus' Death, Burial and bodily Resurrection, entered into the Kingdom through Old Testament dispensation, including the thief on the cross because although Jesus was close to death, he was not yet dead...

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

God Bless!

 

[mailmandan]

Did you read the verse that you provided ... lol

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized = shall be saved

Sure I read it. All of it and I did not stop at the first clause which is clarified by the second clause.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Candidus]

Everyone prior to Jesus' Death, Burial and bodily Resurrection, entered into the Kingdom through Old Testament dispensation, including the thief on the cross because although Jesus was close to death, he was not yet dead...

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

God Bless!

Thank you for proving that one does not have to be baptized in order to be saved in the New Covenant! John 19:32 says that the other two criminals on the cross had their legs broken to expedite their deaths... and that when they came to Jesus, He was already dead, fulfilling the prophecy "Not a bone of Him shall be broken." Therefore, the irrefutable argument you made from Hebrews 9:16 proves that the Thief on the cross died under the New Testament!

It only takes one example of someone being saved without water baptism to prove that it is not essential to anyone's salvation!

 

[Candidus]

Sure I read it. All of it and I did not stop at the first clause which is clarified by the second clause.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Is it even talking about "water" baptism? Why could it not be speaking of spiritual baptism?

Some people have water on the brain! They add water where the word "baptizo" does not have any water in it!

 

[Behold]

The bible says we must obey him or else. He and the apostles says baptize and be baptized.

After we are born again, (SAVED), we are to be water baptized.
This is a public recognition/witness/proclamation of the FACT that we have already been saved and are following Christ.
If you are not water baptized, then you should be... but, with the knowledge that its BECAUSE you are already saved you are doing it..

I was WB 11 yrs after i was born again.