Salvation Through Baptism ???

[Candidus]

*

That spiritual rebirth happens when one is immersed in water for the remssion of their sins (Rom.6:3-18) (Col.2:12)

There is not one drop of water in either passage, alone enough to immerse anyone in it!

Jesus said "A MAN" must be born again.

He did not say a baby must be born

Notice (Jn 3:23)

And yet, Jesus follows up with what He says with... "That which is BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" Tell me, what child is "born of the Sprit" and not "Flesh"?

John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there

If it proves anything, God made the oceans so we could preach to and convert dinosaurs so we could immerse them! John Kitto travelled the Holy Land and observed that "many waters" Aenon were "many springs," none of which were deep enough to immerse someone. And I would assert that if someone was by an ocean, it would no more prove or assert immersion.

Water is referring to baptism in (Jn 3).

No it wasn't! The question was physical birth and rebirth. Jesus answered the question.

We must take the SUM of Gods word and draw our conclusion based on all God said on a particular subject. (Ps.119:160) (Mt.4:4)

Baptism by the numbers

After counting all of the references to the term BAPTIZO and its derivatives in the Greek New Testament, we find that the term is used 131 times, and after excluding the repeats from the synoptic Gospels, we see that the term is used 99 independent times. Of all of these passages, fewer than twenty can be appealed to in the effort to prove that baptism is essential to salvation. “The words salvation, faith, repent, forgive, sin, save, wash, justify, sanctify, clean, believe, purge, remission, redeem, blood, reconcile, and kindred words that are used of redemption, are used 3,322 times in Scripture and not once is water baptism stated as being necessary in any redemptive process before sins can be remitted. On the other hand, hundreds of Scriptures require blood, faith in the blood, and a simple confession of sins to God to have sins remitted, but never is baptism once hinted as an essential to redemption.” Finis Dake, God's Plan for Man, page 538.

Are you willing to weigh the sum of God's word and draw a conclusion based on all God said on a particular subject? (Ps.119:160) (Mt.4:4)/. Or is the water "god" more important to you?

Philip "PREACHED CHRIST" in (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40).

What does PREACHING CHRIST include in (Acts 8)?

Water baptism (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40).

The eunuch only rejoiced after water baptism.

Paul preached Christ and that "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." 1 Cor. 1:17. He also proceeded that comment with... "I thank God that I baptized none of you...." !!!! (v.14). "Lest the cross of Christ be of none effect..."!!! (v.17).

The Jailer in (Acts 16:30-34) was out after midnight, in the dark, looking for water so he could be baptized.

He never left the jail but was baptized where he was, Acts 16:27, 28, 33, and 35. He was baptized because he was already saved! "What must I do to be saved? (30) Answer: "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."! (v. 31). Notice that Paul did not say... "Do the hokey-pokey, keep the Sabbath, get circumcised, or even get Baptized... and you shall be saved"!

B/c baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38 ; 22:16)

Baptism is "in reference to", or "because of" the remission of sins.

BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST

BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST ----------> (Rom.6:3-6) (Gal.3:27)
BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST

By the Holy Spirit, and not by water, which is nowhere mentioned in either verse!

 

[marksman]

Not that the first preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ includes being baptized, necessarily makes it to be necessary for salvation. Consider this truth: From since the beginning, the salvation of God is by God's grace through faith. That is the way of the Lord concerning the salvation of man yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The salvation of God was never through baptism in any way shape or form in the past from the beginning until before the cross, so I find no reason why that should change after the cross.

Tong
R0682

No one is saying that it is. As I have said very clearly more than once, repentance is the first step and which means getting rid of the old man. The second step is baptism which is putting on Christ or the new life that is in Christ.

P.S. Can you tell me if you have any theological qualifications gained at an accredited College and have you had an anointing from God to teach the scriptures that is verifiable?

 

[Tong2020]

No one is saying that it is. As I have said very clearly more than once, repentance is the first step and which means getting rid of the old man. The second step is baptism which is putting on Christ or the new life that is in Christ.

And as I have said, since the beginning, the salvation of God is by God's grace through faith. That is the way of the Lord concerning the salvation of man yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The salvation of God was never through baptism in any way shape or form in the past from the beginning until before the cross, so I find no reason why that should change after the cross. I can see that you don't refute any of that. So then, the truth remains that salvation is not through baptism, which answers the question title of this thread.

I also said in my post #135, and I quote:

Baptism is not the gospel, and so it is not what the apostles preached, nor should it be what the Christian should preach. And if baptism is not the gospel, then it is NOT the power of God to salvation for any man.

P.S. Can you tell me if you have any theological qualifications gained at an accredited College and have you had an anointing from God to teach the scriptures that is verifiable?

Why? Are you suggesting that a theological qualification gained at an accredited College is a requirement for one before one could understand scriptures? If so, who said and made that so? Was it God or some men or you?

You speak of anointing from God regarding the matter of teaching the scriptures. I am a Christian and regarding the anointing, here's what scriptures say.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Tong
R0690

 

[Mr C]

By saying "preaching Christ", I get the impression that you know what the gospel is, that is, not really about anything else other than Jesus Christ.

Baptism is not the gospel, and so it is not what the apostles preached, nor should it be what the Christian should preach. And if baptism is not the gospel, then it is NOT the power of God to salvation for any man.


The answer to that could only be guesswork.


Again, one could only guess.


That question is coming from guesswork, and so the answer would likewise only be a guess.


Scriptures does not say anything to that effect. The laying on of hands of the apostles is not a passing of "Holy Spirit Baptism" to the convert. Rather it is the occasion wherein, the one laying hands, as did John and Peter in Acts 8:14-17, prayed for those who received the word of God that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Now, baptism is administered by one ~ baptism with water in the name of the Lord by the disciples, and baptism with the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ.

Tong
R0683

* Tong - Baptism is not the gospel, and so it is not what the apostles preached, nor should it be what the Christian should preach. And if baptism is not the gospel, then it is NOT the power of God to salvation for any man.


Mr.C - Baptism is a part of the gospel message which saves according to (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 22:16) (Mark 16:15,16) (Mt.28:18-20) (Gal.3:27) (Rom.6:3-6).

Paul was not saved on the road while speaking to Jesus. Jesus told him to go to Damascus and see Ananias (Acts 9). Three days later (Acts 9:9) we see Paul in Damascus learning how baptism is a part of the saving process (Acts 22:16).


Question - (Acts 22:16)

Did Paul come to baptism thinking his sins were ALREADY forgiven?

OR

Did Paul.come to baptism thinking his sins needed to be washed away?

Paul is not going to have his sins forgiven one way and then teach people another way of being saved. (Acts 22:16)(1Cor.1:10) (Phil.3:16)



If baptism is not part of the gospel which saves then the Lord must rewrite (Mark 16:15,16) b/c He told preachers to go to all the world and teach baptism is a part of the gospel which saves the souls of men.

Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:16)


If Christians are not to preach baptism as a part of the gospel which saves then the Lord also must rewrite (Mt.28:18-20).

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them...


Baptism SAVES (1Peter 3:20,21)



There is only one baptism (Eph.4:5)

Which one does the church you attend teach?




Thanks

 

[Mr C]

If your church practices Holy Spirit baptism (spirit baptism) and Water baptism then that is two baptisms.

(Eph.4:5) says there is but one baptism.

I have an example of an individual being baptized in water (Acts 8:26-40).

Can you give me one RECORDED EXAMPLE of an individual being Holy Spirit Baptized after the RESS. of Christ?

I only know of GROUPS of people being baptized in the Holy spirit (not individuals) (Ac. 2/10)

Also Holy Spirit baptism was only passed on to others by the laying on of the apostles hands (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18.19)

Once the apostles died the miracles soon ceased (Zech.13;1,2) (Eph.4:1-15) (1Cor.13:8-10)

 

[Marymog]

Water baptism does not save anyone.

1 Peter 3:21

 

[Marymog]

Hi

ACTS 2:38
Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So is baptism necessary in order to receive the Holy Spirit?

And is baptism necessary for salvation? If a person has accepted Jesus Christ by faith and has made a full repentance, yet have not become baptized.. are they saved.

It is necessary to obey Christ: John 3:5, Matthew 28:19

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Marymog]

Baptism is for believers to make their public confession of their commitment to Christ. It is consistent with the Scripture: "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved" (Romans 10:10).
So, baptism is an integral part of declaring with your mouth and your actions that you are professing your faith and that you are saved.

Hi,

Where does Scripture say that baptism has to be done in "public"? I can't find that passage....

If a baptism is done in private...does it count?

Curious Mary

 

[brian100]

After a while you guys will say why do we need Baptism.. and then you will say why Jesus.. because all I knew was Paul.

 

[Tong2020]

* Tong - Baptism is not the gospel, and so it is not what the apostles preached, nor should it be what the Christian should preach. And if baptism is not the gospel, then it is NOT the power of God to salvation for any man.


Mr.C - Baptism is a part of the gospel message which saves according to (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 22:16) (Mark 16:15,16) (Mt.28:18-20) (Gal.3:27) (Rom.6:3-6).

Paul was not saved on the road while speaking to Jesus. Jesus told him to go to Damascus and see Ananias (Acts 9). Three days later (Acts 9:9) we see Paul in Damascus learning how baptism is a part of the saving process (Acts 22:16).


Question - (Acts 22:16)

Did Paul come to baptism thinking his sins were ALREADY forgiven?

OR

Did Paul.come to baptism thinking his sins needed to be washed away?

Paul is not going to have his sins forgiven one way and then teach people another way of being saved. (Acts 22:16)(1Cor.1:10) (Phil.3:16)



If baptism is not part of the gospel which saves then the Lord must rewrite (Mark 16:15,16) b/c He told preachers to go to all the world and teach baptism is a part of the gospel which saves the souls of men.

Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:16)


If Christians are not to preach baptism as a part of the gospel which saves then the Lord also must rewrite (Mt.28:18-20).

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them...


Baptism SAVES (1Peter 3:20,21)


There is only one baptism (Eph.4:5)

Which one does the church you attend teach?


Thanks

And there's nothing in your post that refute the truth that Baptism is not the gospel, and it is not what the apostles preached.

And if you say that baptism is the gospel or is part of the gospel, then I am sorry to say that you don't really know what the gospel is that the apostles preached. You need to reread your Bible sir concerning the gospel, the gospel that the apostles preached. Let me cite you some scriptures.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Clearly, salvation is by grace. And clearly, salvation is through faith, not through baptism nor through anything else for that matter.

Regarding the gospel that the apostles preached, you can start by reading the very first time that Peter preached after they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as recorded in Acts 2:14-36. Tell us if you find baptism included in the gospel preached. You can continue to read the other times that they preached.

The gospel of salvation that the apostles preach is the gospel of Jesus Christ and not a gospel of baptism. Let me bring to your attention what Paul said in the following passage:

Galatians 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Finally, let me point out this truth, nothing saves but God.

Tong
R0691

 

[Mr C]

It says not a single thing about leaving the prison to look for a river to immerse in. In fact, if they escaped, the "keeper" of the prison was going to commit suicide because he was accountable and would be punished for losing them; but did not leave. They were "lead forward", apparently into the house of the "Keeper" (v.34), who fed them, and later the next day was sent messengers (sergeants) that gave him the message to "let those men go."

There is no Scripture evidence that anyone was blundering around in the dark looking for water outside of the prison grounds.



There is not one drop of water in Romans 6, alone enough to immerse someone! Colossians 2:11-12 attests to the same SPIRITUAL BAPTISM "made without hands." No water here either!

It's b/c Baptism Saves according to (1Peter 3:20,21)

It "saves" from a bad conscience, it does not bring salvation. (v.21). It is a "like figure" just like the example of Noah and the Ark was a "figure." While is speaks of water Baptism here, it is the symbol, not the substance. It is a figure, not the thing itself.


Romans 6:3 tells us what we are baptized into; Jesus Christ! Not water! Water cannot put you into Christ, only the baptism of the Holy Spirit can do that! Why change what God said to mean water? Mark 16:16 is a verse thrown out in desperation. It is questionable at best. Heb. 10:22, it does not say that water cleanses spiritually, but that "drawing near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith" does it! Symbolically, if one were to display what is happening here, water baptism would be the symbol of this reality that has already happened by faith! I also find it interesting that you disprove immersion with this passage! It is sprinkling and washing, in which water is applied to the object, and not the object applied to the water! The Jews in the Old Testament knew nothing of immersion, but only sprinkling and pouring, and sprinkling is no full immersion, is it! Once again, it speaks of a "clean conscience." Acts 22:16, Paul is told to "arise"... "and be baptized, wash away your sin, calling on the His name." or "calling on the name of the Lord." Calling on the name of the Lord is the cause, the washing away of his sins is the action, and baptism is the symbol of the action already occurred. One cane read it the other way, yet they would be going against the Biblical pattern shown elsewhere that baptism follows salvation. Baptism is a testimony of what already happened, not the cause of it. Paul also stood up to be baptized... right where he stood! Interesting! Titus 3:3-5 clearly speaks of a spiritual washing and regeneration brought about by the renewing of the Holy Spirit! Not one drop of water needed!


Neither passage is connected to water baptism as the cause.


While it is true that water baptism and spiritual baptism can be seen as virtually occurring simultaneously, neither of these verses assert such a thing. It does not change the fact that one is what saves you, and the other is an outward symbol that cannot save. To say otherwise is to bolster the heresy, and to miss the Gospel.

The bible teaches by IMPLICATION at times.

(Acts 16:30-35) the Jailers conversion.

25. And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them...

30. And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
35 ¶ And when it was day


1. We go from MIDNIGHT in (vs) 25

to daylight hours in (vs) 35.

So this all happens during the night according to the scriptures.


2. You claim the jailers house is on the prison grounds.

The text does not say that at all.

We do not know where the jailers house is located.

You are adding to the text your opinions (eisegesis).


3. The jailer was only said to BELIEVE after being immersed in water. (Acts 16:34)

 

[Marymog]

Amen! Man is saved by grace through faith not faith and water baptism. (Ephesians 2:8)

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Hi mailmandan,

I think you would agree that we must keep His commandments, obey what He and the Apostles taught to be saved?

Acts 5:29: But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men".

John 14:15: “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

1 John 2:3: And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

Luke 11:28: But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Jesus final commandment before he ascended into heaven was "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,..."

Peter said to "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Will we be saved if we refuse to do what they said?

Mary

 

[Tong2020]

If your church practices Holy Spirit baptism (spirit baptism) and Water baptism then that is two baptisms.

(Eph.4:5) says there is but one baptism.

I have an example of an individual being baptized in water (Acts 8:26-40).

Can you give me one RECORDED EXAMPLE of an individual being Holy Spirit Baptized after the RESS. of Christ?

I only know of GROUPS of people being baptized in the Holy spirit (not individuals) (Ac. 2/10)

Also Holy Spirit baptism was only passed on to others by the laying on of the apostles hands (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18.19)

Once the apostles died the miracles soon ceased (Zech.13;1,2) (Eph.4:1-15) (1Cor.13:8-10)

The church does not baptize with the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ does. What the church does is baptize with water in the name of the Lord as did the apostles in their days.

You asked "Can you give me one RECORDED EXAMPLE of an individual being Holy Spirit Baptized after the RESS. of Christ?" Why? Do you not believe the scriptures where John said of the Messiah, " I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”? Of course, after the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus Christ to heaven, He was no longer physically on earth to baptize with the Holy Spirit. But rest assured, those who receives the gospel and believe, Jesus Christ baptizes them with the Holy Spirit. And as this is a baptism with the Holy Spirit, this is not an event that is like baptism with water that is visible to the human eye.

Tong
R0692

 

[brian100]

post #152

Luke 11:28 is what I try to follow ---just Jesus words.. why? B/c he is God!

I only read what Jesus says to do. Jesus says if I can't follow it all its still ok. . I can't follow him to homeless b.c I would die on the street and I don't want that to be suicide. I trust he will provide for me. That the Father will give me shelter and all the things I need. Which included Baptism without asking for it.

Everyone listening to Paul is a sideshow for Jesus. Paul puts the word of God in the closet.

Jesus gave me all the knowledge I need to make it to heaven! No Pauls needed!!!

Why do I say all this? God gave me my own brain....a brain to follow Jesus!

 

[Mr C]

The church does not baptize with the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ does. What the church does is baptize with water in the name of the Lord as did the apostles in their days.

You asked "Can you give me one RECORDED EXAMPLE of an individual being Holy Spirit Baptized after the RESS. of Christ?" Why? Do you not believe the scriptures where John said of the Messiah, " I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”? Of course, after the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus Christ to heaven, He was no longer physically on earth to baptize with the Holy Spirit. But rest assured, those who receives the gospel and believe, Jesus Christ baptizes them with the Holy Spirit. And as this is a baptism with the Holy Spirit, this is not an event that is like baptism with water that is visible to the human eye.

Tong
R0692

Does the church you attend practice one or two baptisms?

 

[brian100]

The holy spirit baptize you at the end of the cermemony .. and 'in the name of the Holy Spirit.' Amen.

We baptize by the Trinity.

 

[Mr C]

post #152

Luke 11:28 is what I try to follow ---just Jesus words.. why? B/c he is God!

I only read what Jesus says to do. Jesus says if I can't follow it all its still ok. . I can't follow him to homeless b.c I would die on the street and I don't want that to be suicide. I trust he will provide for me. That the Father will give me shelter and all the things I need. Which included Baptism without asking for it.

Everyone listening to Paul is a sideshow for Jesus. Paul puts the word of God in the closet.

Jesus gave me all the knowledge I need to make it to heaven! No Pauls needed!!!

Why do I say all this? God gave me my own brain....a brain to follow Jesus!

God also gave you Paul.

Paul said the following.

(1Cor. 11:1) - Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ

(1Cor.14:37) - 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

 

[brian100]

God didn't give me Paul for anything. I only follow Jesus (GOD) words.

You guys use Paul to cancel out his words.

 

[Tong2020]

Does the church you attend practice one or two baptisms?

Apparently you are not really reading my post.

Tong
R0693

 

[Candidus]

The bible teaches by IMPLICATION at times.

(Acts 16:30-35) the Jailers conversion.

25. And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them...

30. And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
35 ¶ And when it was day

No one denies the fact that they were baptized at night. What does that have to do with the amount of water or the location of water?
Nothing is implied.

1. We go from MIDNIGHT in (vs) 25

to daylight hours in (vs) 35.

So this all happens during the night according to the scriptures.


2. You claim the jailers house is on the prison grounds.

The text does not say that at all.

Just as you said, "The bible teaches by IMPLICATION at times." The Jailor was on duty. He resided at that location. To allow them to escape by leaving would have been a death sentence to him. The messengers were sent that stated that they were then, and inly then, allowed to leave. The bible teaches by IMPLICATION at times.


3. The jailer was only said to BELIEVE after being immersed in water. (Acts 16:34)

Nothing in the passage says anything about immersion. (BTW, you meant verse 33.)