Salvation Through Baptism ???

[101G]

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
in order to get in Christ one must die to the old nature .... and Baptism do that for us, and not really dying a natural death, (if not nessary). as the apostle Peter said by God, 1 Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
the baptism itself don't save you, JESUS "SAVE", but to get to Jesus one is buried with him in his death... and the important part is to rise from death into newness of LIFE, Romans 6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." THIS IS IMPORTANT.
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

again, one cannot LIVE with Christ unless one has died, ..... and rose, hence is what baptism do for us. because dead people, (not alive to God), are not in Christ. for the apostle Peter got it right, "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God" this is the LIFE and DEATH we speak of. for water baptism is natural/carnal, a material thing. but the obedience to it is LIFE and PEACE in Christ Jesus. for if one is not rose, or come alive to God then there is no placement in the body of Christ, untill the death... baptism. for Christ is not dead, for dead sons cannot inherent the Kingdom, hence the belief.

so it is through the obediance to the Faith which is in Christ Jesus that one is water baptized. Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." THAT VERY LAST PART OF MARK IS SO IMPORTANT TO KNOW. hint for the DEAD in Christ ... rise first

PICJAG.

 

[mailmandan]

Don’t buy into the flawed logic that man is saved by “these” works (good works) and just not “those” works (works of the law). Paul and James are both referring to works which cannot be dissected from the moral aspect of the law. (James 2:15-16; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10)

Also, don’t buy into the flawed logic that we must accomplish certain works (water baptism, taking communion etc..) in order to be saved, then deny that these works are works. Paul made it clear that man is saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone and not by works, which is not merely limited only to “specific” works of the law, but includes works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

 

[mailmandan]

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Grailhunter]

Don’t buy into the flawed logic that man is saved by “these” works (good works) and just not “those” works (works of the law). Paul and James are both referring to works which cannot be dissected from the moral aspect of the law. (James 2:15-16; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10)

Also, don’t buy into the flawed logic that we must accomplish certain works (water baptism, taking communion etc..) in order to be saved, then deny that these works are works. Paul made it clear that man is saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone and not by works, which is not merely limited only to “specific” works of the law, but includes works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

As I said, you can reject Christ words, but where does that leave you? At no time is baptism or communion referred to as works. The good little boy that rejects the Word of God is damned. The good little boy that does not apply the Heart of Christ in good Deeds is no service to Christ. The Talent that was buried. The first name given to Christianity was the Way, not the sit. Christ and the Apostles told people how to be saved. Rejection is rebellion one of those things that remove you from the Book of Life. Don't fall for the lie that you make up your own process for salvation. The process for salvation came from Christ's own lips. You call Him a liar!

 

[mailmandan]

As I said, you can reject Christ words, but where does that leave you? At no time is baptism or communion referred to as works. The good little boy that rejects the Word of God is damned. The good little boy that does not apply the Heart of Christ in good Deeds is no service to Christ. The Talent that was buried. The first name given to Christianity was the Way, not the sit. Christ and the Apostles told people how to be saved. Rejection is rebellion one of those things that remove you from the Book of Life. Don't fall for the lie that you make up your own process for salvation. The process for salvation came from Christ's own lips. You call Him a liar!

I have not rejected Christ’s words and salvation is not a process of works righteousness. Salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) To believe anything else is to miss salvation.

I believe in/have faith in/trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation and I know exactly where that leaves me. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6: 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 John 5:13). Christ’s finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

I have not buried my talent and I am saved to serve, not saved to sit, so no need for straw man arguments

 

[Grailhunter]

I have not rejected Christ’s words and salvation is not a process of works righteousness. Salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) To believe anything else is to miss salvation.

I believe in/have faith in/trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation and I know exactly where that leaves me. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6: 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 John 5:13). Christ’s finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

I have not buried my talent and I am saved to serve, not saved to sit, so no need for straw man arguments

You have rejected Christ's own words and call Him a liar. I recommend Baby Ray's barbecue sauce....you will be needing it.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; be he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyer rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of Him.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto unt thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

If you look close you will see some "ands" in these sentences, not just one thing.

 

[mailmandan]

You have rejected Christ's own words and call Him a liar. I recommend Baby Ray's barbecue sauce....you will be needing it.

That accusation is absolutely false, but I understand that you must be thoroughly indoctrinated and confused.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

We have here a command from Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause for disciples to observe all things that Christ has commanded them. You must not confuse commands to become saved with commands after we have been saved. Otherwise you end up with salvation by works.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; be he that believeth not shall be damned.

*See post #303.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyer rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of Him.

*See post #293.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto unt thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

*See post #231 from the link below:

https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/except-a-man-be-born-of-water-and-of-the-spirit-he-cannot-enter-into-the-kingdom-of-god.33397/page-12

If you look close you will see some "ands" in these sentences, not just one thing.

Now show me the “ands” in (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:26; Ephesians 2:8. Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 10:39; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

 

[Grailhunter]

That accusation is absolutely false, but I understand that you must be thoroughly indoctrinated and confused.

We have here a command from Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause for disciples to observe all things that Christ has commanded them. You must not confuse commands to become saved with commands after we have been saved. Otherwise you end up with salvation by works.

*See post #303.

*See post #293.

*See post #231 from the link below:

https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/except-a-man-be-born-of-water-and-of-the-spirit-he-cannot-enter-into-the-kingdom-of-god.33397/page-12

Now show me the “ands” in (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:26; Ephesians 2:8. Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 10:39; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

lol I will play your game. What scripture says specifically that "being saved will get you to heaven?"
Odd are good that Christ and the Apostles did not count on someone having the audacity or the ignorance to question what they were telling them to do to achieve salvation.

Believeth and is baptized...so there is your "and"
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; be he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyer rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of Him.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Grailhunter]

Baptism, a little word with the power of the universe.

Beliefs regarding baptism go from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Many believe that when someone is baptized it causes miraculous events for the individual that are part of salvation.

Some believe it is linked to repentance and thus referred to it as the Baptism of repentance in which the person’s past sins are forgiven.

Some believe it as the Baptism for the remission of sins...

Some believe that the person receives the Holy Spirit in one fashion or another.

Some believe that Baptism is in effect, dying in Christ and a resurrection of sorts, or a metaphorical symbology thereof.

Many believe that the process of regeneration occurs here.

But at the other end of the spectrum, some believe it has no spiritual significance at all, serving as a public display of obedience or an announcement that they are Christian.

The early Christians and ECF’s (Early Church Fathers) were big on water baptism even though the method could very. In winter you could substitute the river with pouring water over someone’s head three times. But it always involves water.

ECF…Tertullian on Water Baptism (155-220 ad) (English teachers hold back on the red pins.)

Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life! A treatise on this matter will not be superfluous; instructing not only such as are just becoming formed (in the faith), but them who, content with having simply believed, without full examination of the grounds of the traditions, carry (in mind), through, an untried though probable. The consequence is, that a viper of the Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. Which is quite in accordance with nature; for vipers and asps and basilisks themselves generally do affect arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes, after the example of our ΙΧΘΥΣ Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water; so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water!

Tertullian on why Water Baptism
Mindful of this declaration as of a conclusive prescript, we nevertheless proceed to treat (address) the question, How foolish and impossible it is to be formed anew by water. In what respect, pray , has this material substance merited an office of so high dignity? The authority, I suppose, of the liquid element has to be examined. This however, is found in abundance, and that from the very beginning. For water is one of those things which, before all the furnishing of the world, were quiescent with God in a yet unshapened state. In the first beginning, says Scripture, God made the heaven and the earth. But the earth was invisible, and unorganized, and darkness was over the abyss; and the Spirit of the Lord was hovering over the waters. The first thing, O man, which you have to venerate, is the age of the waters in that their substance is ancient; the second, their dignity, in that they were the seat of the Divine Spirit, more pleasing to Him, no doubt, than all the other then existing elements. For the darkness was total thus far, shapeless, without the ornament of stars; and the abyss gloomy; and the earth unfurnished; and the heaven unwrought: water alone — always a perfect, gladsome, simple material substance, pure in itself — supplied a worthy vehicle to God. What of the fact that waters were in some way the regulating powers by which the disposition of the world thenceforward was constituted by God? For the suspension of the celestial firmament in the midst He caused by dividing the waters; the suspension of the dry land He accomplished by separating the waters. After the world had been hereupon set in order through its elements, when inhabitants were given it, the waters were the first to receive the precept to bring forth living creatures. Water was the first to produce that which had life, that it might be no wonder in baptism if waters know how to give life. For was not the work of fashioning man himself also achieved with the aid of waters? Suitable material is found in the earth, yet not apt for the purpose unless it be moist and juicy; which (earth) the waters, separated the fourth day before into their own place, temper with their remaining moisture to a clayey consistency. If, from that time onward, I go forward in recounting universally, or at more length, the evidences of the authority of this element which I can adduce to show how great is its power or its grace;; how many ingenious devices, how many functions, how useful an instrumentality, it affords the world, I fear I may seem to have collected rather the praises of water than the reasons of baptism; although I should thereby teach all the more fully, that it is not to be doubted that God has made the material substance which He has disposed throughout all His products and works, obey Him also in His own peculiar sacraments; that the material substance which governs terrestrial life acts as agent likewise in the celestial.

But it will suffice to have thus called at the outset those points in which withal is recognized that primary principle of baptism — which was even then fore-noted by the very attitude assumed for a type of baptism — that the Spirit of God, who hovered over (the waters) from the beginning, would continue to linger over the waters of the baptism. But a holy thing, of course, hovered over a holy; or else, from that which hovered over that which was hovered over borrowed a holiness, since it is necessary that in every case an underlying material substance should catch the quality of that which overhangs it, most of all a corporeal of a spiritual, adapted (as the spiritual is) through the subtleness of its substance, both for penetrating and insinuating. Thus the nature of the waters, sanctified by the Holy One, itself conceived withal the power of sanctifying. Let no one say, Why then, are we, pray, baptized the very waters which then exited in the first beginning? Not with those waters, of course, except in so far as the genus indeed is one, but the species very many. But what is an attribute to the genus reappears likewise in the species. And accordingly it makes no difference whether a man be washed in a sea or a pool, a stream or a fount, a lake or a trough; nor is there any distinction between those whom John baptized in the Jordan and those whom Peter baptized in the Tiber, unless withal the eunuch whom Philip baptized in the midst of his journeys with chance water, derived (there from) more or less of salvation than others. Act 8:26-40 All waters, therefore, in virtue of the pristine privilege of their origin, do, after invocation of God, attain the sacramental power of sanctification; for the Spirit immediately supervenes from the heavens, and rests over the waters, sanctifying them from Himself; and being thus sanctified, they imbibe at the same time the power of sanctifying. Albeit the similitude may be admitted to be suitable to the simple act; that, since we are defiled by sins, as it were by dirt, we should be washed from those stains in waters. But as sins do not show themselves in our flesh (inasmuch as no one carries on his skin the spot of idolatry, or fornication, or fraud), so persons of that kind are foul in the spirit, which is the author of the sin; for the spirit is lord, the flesh servant. Yet they each mutually share the guilt: the spirit, on the ground of command; the flesh, of subservience. Therefore, after the waters have been in a manner endued with medicinal virtue through the intervention of the angel, the spirit is corporeally washed in the waters, and the flesh is in the same spiritually cleansed.

Tertullian on without Baptism there is no salvation
When, however, the prescript is laid down that without baptism, salvation is attainable by none (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, Unless one be born of water, he has not life ), there arise immediately scrupulous, nay rather audacious, doubts on the part of some, how, in accordance with that prescript, salvation is attainable by the apostles, whom — Paul excepted — we do not find baptized in the Lord? Nay, since Paul is the only one of them who has put on the garment of Christ's baptism, either the peril of all the others who lack the water of Christ is prejudged, that the prescript may be maintained, or else the prescript is rescinded if salvation has been ordained even for the unbaptized. I have heard — the Lord is my witness— doubts of that kind: that none may Imagine me so abandoned as to excogitate, unprovoked, in the license of my pen, ideas which would inspire others with scruple.

 

[Grailhunter]

And now, as far as I shall be able, I will reply to them who affirm that the apostle were unbaptized. For if they had undergone the human baptism of John, and were longing for that of the Lord, then since the Lord Himself had defined baptism to be one; (saying to Peter, who was desirous of being thoroughly bathed, He who has once bathed has no necessity to wash a second time; John 13:9-10 which, of course, He would not have said at all to one not baptized even here we have a conspicuous proof against those who, in order to destroy the sacrament of water, deprive the apostles even of John's baptism. Can it seem credible that the way of the Lord, that is, the baptism of John, had not then been prepared in those persons who were being destined to open the way of the Lord throughout the whole world? The Lord Himself, though no repentance was due from Him, was baptized: was baptism not necessary for sinners? As for the fact, then, that others were not baptized— they, however, were not companions of Christ, but enemies of the faith, doctors of the law and Pharisees. From which fact is gathered an additional suggestion, that, since the opposers of the Lord refused to be baptized, they who followed the Lord were baptized, and were not like-minded with their own rivals: especially when, if there were any one to whom they clave, the Lord had exalted John above him (by the testimony) saying, Among them who are born of women there is none greater than John the Baptist.

Others make the suggestion (forced enough, clearly that the apostles then served the turn of baptism when in their little ship, were sprinkled and covered with the waves: that Peter himself also was immersed enough when he walked on the sea. It is, however, as I think, one thing to be sprinkled or intercepted by the violence of the sea; another thing to be baptized in obedience to the discipline of religion. But that little ship did present a figure of the Church, in that she is disquieted in the sea, that is, in the world, by the waves, that is, by persecutions and temptations; the Lord, through patience, sleeping as it were, until, roused in their last extremities by the prayers of the saints, He checks the world, and restores tranquility to His own.

Now, whether they were baptized in any manner whatever, or whether they continued unbathed to the end — so that even that saying of the Lord touching the one bath does, under the person of Peter, merely regard us— still, to determine concerning the salvation of the apostles is audacious enough, because on them the prerogative even of first choice, and thereafter of undivided intimacy, might be able to confer the compendious grace of baptism, seeing they (I think) followed Him who was wont to promise salvation to every believer. Your faith, He would say, has saved you; and, Your sins shall be remitted you, on your believing, of course, albeit you be not yet baptized. If that was wanting to the apostles, I know not in the faith of what things it was, that, roused by one word of the Lord, one left the toll-booth behind for ever; Matthew 9:9 another deserted father and ship, and the craft by which he gained his living; Matthew 4:21-22 a third, who disdained his father's obsequies, fulfilled, before he heard it, that highest precept of the Lord, He who prefers father or mother to me, is not worthy of me. Matthew 10:37

For those that believe that Baptism has spiritual effects there is scriptural support.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 11:16 Peter speaking, Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Act 8:26-40
But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert road.) So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: “He was led as a sheep to slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He does not open His mouth. “In humiliation His judgment was taken away; Who will relate His generation? For His life is removed from the earth.” The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus.

Biblical references to Baptism

Mark 1:8 John the Baptist said, I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 3:3 Speaking of John the Baptist. And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

John 3:5 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter in to the Kingdom of God.”

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:41
So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.

Acts 8:13
Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

Acts 8:16
For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 8:36
As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?”

Acts 8:38
And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

Acts 9:18
And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized;

Acts 10:47
you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.

Acts 10:48
And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Acts 11:16
And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

 

[Grailhunter]

Acts 16:15
And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.

Acts 16:33
And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

Acts 18:8
Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.

Acts 19:5
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:12-16
“A certain Ananias, a man who was devout by the standard of the Law, and well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, came to me, and standing near said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very time I looked up at him. And he said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear an utterance from His mouth. For you will be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard. Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

John 3:22-23 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. Can you imagine being baptized by God!

Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Along with the beliefs that in Baptism we die in Christ, the person that emerges from the water as a new person. Meaning, completely and totally a new person, consequently the Trinity having no memory of the old person, their sins, or their poor character. It is the proverbial, instance of starting out with a new slate. This belief has some historical precedence in the early Church, for one, some would wait until they were near death to be baptized, thinking that way their soul would be free of sin when it came time to face judgment. It has been said that Emperor Constantine did this.

There is a psychological side of this because some people have trouble forgiving themselves. I think Paul was one of these. With that person no longer existing a person can better understand that they can move forward with their walk with Christ. There is a possibly of a redemptive quality that goes beyond the norm here. For those that have done horrible things or the unpardonable sin it is like that person never existed, so all is forgiven. Alternatively it denies Satan any venue to accuse you of not being good enough to be a Christian. Thoughts and beliefs vary on this.

Christ is the Son of God.” And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea. Some of those that believe that Baptism has no spiritual effect have concerns that if Baptism forgives, why did Christ need to die on the Cross? The explanation for this may go back to John the Baptist, a relative, the cousin of Christ. Their association is a topic in itself. But John probably understood the plan and put it in the most simplest of words, as he was baptizing in the Jordan.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (Notice the exclamation point) Spoiler alert! Christ would never answer the question of where John got the authority to forgive sins. The answer of course, it came from God. Baptism or ritual bathing is not unique to Christianity, and it is always about cleansing. But the Christian baptism is spiritual. Even before the crucifixion God the Father had given Christ all authority over judgment and sin. Matthew 2:5, 28:18-20, Mark 2:5, John 3:35, 5:22-27, 13:3 Luke 7:48 In this scenario baptism removed an individual’s sins from their soul and any sin committed after baptism is between the individual and Christ. Of course for those that believe in Original Sin, it could also be removed during baptism.

Who should Baptize…. Tertullian
For concluding our brief subject, it remains to put you in mind also of the due observance of giving and receiving baptism. Of giving it, the chief priest (who is the bishop) has the right: in the next place, the presbyters and deacons, yet not without he bishop’s authority, on account of the honor of the Church, which being preserved, peace is preserved. Beside these, even laymen have the right; for what is equally received can be equally given. Unless bishops, or priests, or deacons, be on the spot other disciples are called i.e. to the work. The word of the Lord ought not to be hidden by any: in like manner, too, baptism, which is equally God's property, can be administered by all. But how much more is the rule of reverence and modesty incumbent on laymen seeing that these powers belong to their superiors — lest they assume to themselves the specific function of the bishop! Emulation of the Episcopal office is the mother of schisms. The most holy apostle has said, that all things are lawful, but not all expedient. Let it suffice assuredly, in cases of necessity, to avail yourself (of that rule , if at any time circumstance either of place, or of time, or of person compels you (so to do); for then the steadfast courage of the succourer, when the situation of the endangered one is urgent, is exceptionally admissible; inasmuch as he will be guilty of a human creature's loss if he shall refrain from bestowing what he had free liberty to bestow.

But the woman of pertness, who has usurped the power to teach, will of course not give birth for herself likewise to a right of baptizing, unless some new beast shall arise like the former; so that, just as the one abolished baptism, so some other should in her own right confer it!

But if the writings which wrongly go under Paul’s name, claim Thecla's example as a license for women’s teaching and baptizing, let them know that, in Asia, the presbyter who composed that writing, as if he were augmenting Paul’s fame from his own store, after being convicted, and confessing that he had done it from love of Paul, was removed from his office. For how credible would it seem, that he who has not permitted a woman even to learn with over-boldness, should give a female the power of teaching and of baptizing! Let them be silent, he says, and at home consult their own husbands. 1st Corinthians 14:34-35

After Christ’s death on the cross the entire process and effects of Salvation come into play, Justification, Substitution, Redemption, Propitiation, Reconciliation, Adoption, Grace, and Sanctification.

Justification: Romans 3:22-30, 4:25, 5:1 5:9, 5:16-18, 8:30-34

Substitution: Matthew 20:28 Mark 10:45

Redemption: Matthew 13:44, 1st Timothy 2:6, Hebrews 9:12, Titus 2:14

Propitiation: 1st John 2:2, Romans 3:25

Reconciliation: Romans 5:10, 2nd Corinthians 5:19-21

Adoption: Roman: 8:14-17 Galatians 4:1-5

 

[Grailhunter]

Grace: The word grace occurs 122 times in the NT and the phrase grace of God occurs dozens of times, so I will be a little selective to saving grace. Acts 15:11 Romans 3:24, 5:2, 5:17, 5:20-21, 2nd Corinthians 4:14, Ephesians 1:7, 2:8, Titus 2:11, 3:7, Hebrews 4:16,

Sanctification: Romans 7:6 Hebrews 10:10, 1st Peter 1:16, 1st John 3:1-3, Ephesians 5:26-27, Jude 24:25

At Christ’s death the veil in the Temple was ripped in two, a physical and symbolic meaning that there is no longer anything between us and God. Christ sacrificial death brought an end for the need of sacrifices. His death brought an end to the system of sin and tally, effectively breaking the slate. From there on all sins would be between us and Christ and He had been given authority to judge and forgive the sins of the family of God.

The more complicated aspect of this is the properties of sin that changed. Christ’s Grace presents us blameless before God the Father who otherwise would have zero tolerance to anything but sinlessness. This is one of the reasons that heaven was not an option for the Jews in the Old Testament. We are now in the family of God. To illustrate this, if your son steals a hundred dollars from a bank, that is a federal offense and prison time is in his future. If he steals a hundred dollars from you, it is between you and your son. This is the difference of sin as a perspective. We are presented before God the in a white cloak of Grace, perfect before Him. He never sees or sins, or sins are between us and Christ and He is faithful to forgive our sins if we ask for forgiveness.

I am sure I have missed some perspective because beliefs vary so much. For those that believe it has no spiritual significance, as in a public display, that is their right to believe that, but spirituality they are going to have some difficulties. And also you get into; does it matter what the baptizer or the person being baptized believes? If baptism is actually spiritual, what happens during baptism? Baptism for the remission of sins is well defined in the scriptures. Our passed sins and old life dies when we are submerged in the water. What come up out of the water is a new person with no sins. From that point on their sins are between them and Christ.

 

[Tong2020]

And as can be learned from God's words in scriptures, since the beginning, even from Adam after his offense, the salvation of God is by grace through faith. That is the way of the Lord concerning the salvation of man yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The salvation of God was never through baptism in any way shape or form in the past from the beginning until before the cross, and there is no reason why that should change after the cross.

If any Christian thinks that had change, please show scriptures from where he learned such belief. Else, the truth remains, the salvation of God is by grace through faith, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

What gospel did the apostles preached, a gospel of baptism or the gospel of Jesus Christ? Evidently in the scriptures, the apostles preached gospel of Jesus Christ. Besides, there no such thing as a gospel of baptism spoken in scriptures.

Baptism is not the gospel of salvation, the gospel of Jesus Christ is.

Salvation is not through baptism, but through faith.

Tong
R0774

 

[Tong2020]

<<Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.>>

Some cite this to support the erroneous belief that baptism is the gospel of salvation preached by the apostles. But clearly, the matter of baptism there was an instruction by the Lord Jesus to His disciples to perform or administer. Baptism is not something that they were told to preach but rather to do. This has to do with the making of disciples by the apostles, baptizing them, and teaching them to observe all things that the Lord Jesus have commanded them. So, the cited passage does not in any way teach that salvation is through baptism nor teach that the baptism is the gospel of salvation preached by the apostles.

<<Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; be he that believeth not shall be damned.>>

Some cite this to support the erroneous belief that baptism is the gospel of salvation preached by the apostles. Before Jesus said that, He said to His apostles "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." Clearly, what Jesus said after, that is, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." is not the gospel, rather it is a simple statement which tells us of the outcome of the two possible response to the preaching of the gospel. So, the cited passage does not in any way teach that salvation is through baptism nor teach that the baptism is the gospel of salvation preached by the apostles.

<<Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyer rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of Him.>>

Some cite this to support the erroneous belief that baptism is the gospel of salvation preached by the apostles. Not being baptized there does not mean to imply that the baptism is the counsel of God that the Pharisees and lawyer rejected. As much as the context speaks of the baptism of John, the counsel of God referred to there is that of repentance, that is, of repentance towards faith in the coming Messiah. That is the same counsel referred to by Luke, which those mentioned in Luke 7:29 took heed of and not rejected. So, the cited passage does not in any way teach that salvation is through baptism nor teach that the baptism is the gospel of salvation preached by the apostles.

<<John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.>>

Some cite this to support the erroneous belief that baptism is the gospel of salvation preached by the apostles. Taking the verse in context, it as said by Jesus in relation to the matter of the necessity of being born from above or being born again, for one to see the kingdom of God. Let me quote the verse in context.

John 3: 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Jesus, on the onset of their conversation, was telling Nicodemus this truth (v.3), that unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. All of what Jesus said thereafter, until at least verse 8, concerns that truth. We must not make the mistake of thinking that Jesus was talking about two births in verse 3 or of anything else other than birth. Jesus is talking only of one birth when He said "unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." So, when He said "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." in verse 5, in reply to Nicodemus' question in verse 4, Jesus was not talking about two births, but of one and the same birth that which He told Nicodemus in verse 3. Nor was he talking of baptism. So, the cited passage does not in any way teach that salvation is through baptism nor teach that the baptism is the gospel of salvation preached by the apostles.

Tong
R0775

 

[marksman]

By rejecting the words of Christ and the Bible you have rejected your own salvation.
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyer rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of Him.

Esoteric mumbo jumbo.

 

[marksman]

I suggest to all that advocate for faith as good works should restudy their understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9.

If God's assessment of the human race is that there is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10), who then can do good works?

AND

God declared in Jeremiah 17:9:"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

We must pay heed to these verses to get clear view!

To God Be The Glory

Once again we have someone hanging their doctrine on a couple of verses picked out to strengthen their argument. I will say it again. YOU DO NOT build a doctrine on one or a couple of verses taken out of context. That is proof-texting which you can make say anything you want.

To get a clear view you need to discuss ALL the verses regarding this topic. Not just one or two taken at random.

 

[marksman]

Baptism is not the gospel, and so it is not what the apostles preached, nor should it be what the Christians should preach.

The scriptures you cited is not the gospel, but is Peter's answer to the question of those to whom the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached, as follows: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Tong
R0773

Baptism is not the gospel, and so it is not what the apostles preached, nor should it be what the Christians should preach.

I never said it was.

The scriptures you cited is not the gospel, but is Peter's answer to the question of those to whom the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached, as follows: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Of course, it isn't, that why 3,000 men submitted their lives to Christ on the day of Pentecost. They were under the delusion what they heard was the gospel.

 

[Tong2020]

Once again we have someone hanging their doctrine on a couple of verses picked out to strengthen their argument. I will say it again. YOU DO NOT build a doctrine on one or a couple of verses taken out of context. That is proof-texting which you can make say anything you want.

To get a clear view you need to discuss ALL the verses regarding this topic. Not just one or two taken at random.

@JunChosen and @marksman

Consider the following scriptures:

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Consider the very words of God Himself concerning the man even after all were destroyed in flood saved Noah and 7 others of his family:

Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

How about we ask ourselves, is there not a man, except Jesus, whose heart is not evil and so is righteous in the sight of God? I believe what God said of man in those scriptures.

Tong
R0777

 

[marksman]

@JunChosen and @marksman

Consider the following scriptures:

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Consider the very words of God Himself concerning the man even after all were destroyed in flood saved Noah and 7 others of his family:

Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

How about we ask ourselves, is there not a man, except Jesus, whose heart is not evil and so is righteous in the sight of God? I believe what God said of man in those scriptures.

Tong
R0777

So do I but I don't read them with blinkered thinking as you do. The scripture says and you may not have read them or maybe they have been taken out of your bible that being born again means getting a new heart and a new way of life. All you have done is point out stage one and ignored stage two.

 

[Tong2020]

Of course, it isn't, that why 3,000 men submitted their lives to Christ on the day of Pentecost. They were under the delusion what they heard was the gospel.

Under delusion???

Tong
R0778