Salvation Through Baptism ???

[Tong2020]

Exactly! If we have faith why then do we need to exercise it?

So you believe that faith is works. Such belief is contrary to scriptures. You know that and yet it is what you believe. Why?

You asked "If we have faith why then do we need to exercise it?" Well, we don't exercise faith, in the same sense that we don't exercise hope or exercise love. Faith is not an action word that it is something to be exercised. It is something that comes from God and not as you believe is something that comes from man. Faith comes to man, by hearing the words of God. Now a man who has faith is enabled to produce good works, and even is enabled to do incredible things which the person otherwise could not do without faith.

Faith is not works, but faith is that which the good works of a man shows to have.

Tong
R0770

 

[marksman]

Baptism is not the gospel, and so it is not what the apostles preached, nor should it be what the Christians should preach.
TongR0763

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Seems as though it is what the apostles preached.

 

[marksman]

The thief on the cross wasn't baptized. He was saved.

And your point is?

 

[marksman]

marksman said: ↑
OK. Now do an exegesis of the verses.
BUT BELIEF/FAITH IS WORKS! AND, is contrary to Ephesians 2:8-9. To God Be The Glory

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; Eph 2:9 not of works, that not anyone should boast; Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before prepared that we should walk in them.

Dear brother/sister, I think that you have applied these verses as a proof text for your take on things but in so doing you have missed the point of them and what they are saying.

The keywords here are and this not of yourselves; By grace through faith and it is important to realize that these two acts are by the will of God, not through anything you can do or say. it goes on to say neither can anyone gain salvation by something that they have done. The experience of salvation is a God-given one, totally devoid of anything that we might say or do.

It goes on to say we are his workmanship, created in Christ for what purpose...GOOD WORKS. This comes as a result of salvation, not to obtain it.

It is the same with baptism. it is not to obtain salvation. That comes through repentance where we put off the old man. Baptism enables us to put on the new man that is ours in Christ. As someone said, we are clothed in Christ through baptism.

 

[Tong2020]

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Seems as though it is what the apostles preached.

That does not at all refute nor change my statement :

Baptism is not the gospel, and so it is not what the apostles preached, nor should it be what the Christians should preach.

The scriptures you cited is not the gospel, but is Peter's answer to the question of those to whom the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached, as follows: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Tong
R0773

 

[mailmandan]

"Those verses are self-explanatory" is not exegesis.

And I have never said anything like the words in blue so I cannot see the relevance to me.

So what are we disagreeing about?

 

[JunChosen]

Faith is not works, but faith is that which the good works of a man shows to have.

I suggest to all that advocate for faith as good works should restudy their understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9.

If God's assessment of the human race is that there is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10), who then can do good works?

AND

God declared in Jeremiah 17:9:"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

We must pay heed to these verses to get clear view!

To God Be The Glory

 

[farouk]

It's obvious that I'm not advocating as to your suggestions. It is a matter of how Ephesians 2:8-9 is understood/interpreted.

John 6:44 reads:
"No man can (have the power) come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

This is the only criteria by which an individual can be saved.

John 6:37:
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me (believers only) I will in no wise cast out.

To God Be The Glory

@JunChosen It is indeed a work of God, from start to finish. This does not deny human responsibility; but it's a work of God indeed.

 

[farouk]

I suggest to all that advocate for faith as good works should restudy their understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9.

If God's assessment of the human race is that there is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10), who then can do good works?

AND

God declared in Jeremiah 17:9:"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

We must pay heed to these verses.

To God Be The Glory

@JunChosen Yes, indeed; and if ppl understand Jeremiah 17.9 and the first part of Ephesians 2 properly, they may also grasp the subsequent part of Ephesians 2 about conversion truly being a work of grace from start to finish.

 

[Grailhunter]

That does not at all refute nor change my statement :

Baptism is not the gospel, and so it is not what the apostles preached, nor should it be what the Christians should preach.

The scriptures you cited is not the gospel, but is Peter's answer to the question of those to whom the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached, as follows: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Tong
R0773

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; be he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyer rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of Him.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto unt thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Ooop! I guess you missed these!

 

[Grailhunter]

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; Eph 2:9 not of works, that not anyone should boast; Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before prepared that we should walk in them.

Dear brother/sister, I think that you have applied these verses as a proof text for your take on things but in so doing you have missed the point of them and what they are saying.

The keywords here are and this not of yourselves; By grace through faith and it is important to realize that these two acts are by the will of God, not through anything you can do or say. it goes on to say neither can anyone gain salvation by something that they have done. The experience of salvation is a God-given one, totally devoid of anything that we might say or do.

It goes on to say we are his workmanship, created in Christ for what purpose...GOOD WORKS. This comes as a result of salvation, not to obtain it.

It is the same with baptism. it is not to obtain salvation. That comes through repentance where we put off the old man. Baptism enables us to put on the new man that is ours in Christ. As someone said, we are clothed in Christ through baptism.

By rejecting the words of Christ and the Bible you have rejected your own salvation.
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyer rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of Him.

 

[Grailhunter]

NOWHERE does the Bible say that "whoever is not water baptized will be condemned" and that's sufficient enough for me. Plus there are multiple verses in scripture which make it clear that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-8, 26; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 Peter 1:5; 1 John 5:13 etc..). That is also sufficient enough for me.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyer rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of Him.

 

[mailmandan]

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyer rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of Him.

Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Baptism did not magically make them become disciples, but their decision to become disciples was signified in baptism. Becoming a disciple of John was a heart decision that they made prior to becoming water baptized.

 

[Grailhunter]

Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Baptism did not magically make them become disciples, but their decision to become disciples was signified in baptism. Becoming a disciple of John was a heart decision that they made prior to becoming water baptized.

You have a Bible full of scriptures telling you to Be Baptized. What is a person that rejects the Way to salvation outlined by Christ Himself. What is a disobedient..renegade disciple of Christ. If you reject Christ's Words you reject Him and your own salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

You have a Bible full of scriptures telling you to Be Baptized. What is a person that rejects the Way to salvation outlined by Christ Himself. What is a disobedient..renegade disciple of Christ. If you reject Christ's Words you reject Him and your own salvation.

If one makes a heart decision to become a disciple of Christ, then why would they refuse to be water baptized? I don’t reject Christ’s words (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26) and I could not wait to get water baptized after my conversion, upon receiving Christ through faith and becoming saved. (Acts 10:43-47)

I can’t think of one Christian I know who has refused to be water baptized after their conversion.

 

[Grailhunter]

If one makes a heart decision to become a disciple of Christ, then why would they refuse to be water baptized? I don’t reject Christ’s words (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26) and I could not wait to get water baptized after my conversion, upon receiving Christ through faith and becoming saved. (Acts 10:43-47)

I can’t think of one Christian I know who has refused to be water baptized after their conversion.

So what is your point?

 

[mailmandan]

So what is your point?

It's not the mechanical act of being water baptized that saves us. We are saved the moment that we believe the gospel/place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation prior to receiving water baptism.

 

[Grailhunter]

It's not the mechanical act of being water baptized that saves us. We are saved the moment that we believe the gospel/place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation prior to receiving water baptism.

I think you are getting a few things mixed up. A guy walks down a sidewalk and the thought occurs to him that he believes in Christ....and he does not change anything in his life....is he saved?

 

[mailmandan]

I think you are getting a few things mixed up. A guy walks down a sidewalk and the thought occurs to him that he believes in Christ....and he does not change anything in his life....is he saved?

Does that guy merely believe “mental assent” in the existence of Christ or does he believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation? Obviously not the latter if there is no change in that person at all. Those who believe in Christ/believe the gospel have received the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) and have become new creations in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:17) They have been changed. Praise the Lord!

 

[Grailhunter]

Does that guy merely believe “mental assent” in the existence of Christ or does he believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation? Obviously not the latter if there is no change in that person at all. Those who believe in Christ/believe the gospel have received the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) and have become new creations in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:17) They have been changed. Praise the Lord!

Most of the time the confusion is that some Christians think that baptism and the bread and wine ritual are considered works. The funny thing is that changing your life is a very big work...much more than in a sense than baptism and the bread and wine ritual.

For some it stems from James' statements and Paul's statements. James was a Jewish Christian meaning, he still followed as much of the Law as possible, and thought it was a requirement for salvation. ie the works of the Law. Paul did not think that salvation required the works of the Law...That is the distinction between these two ministries and the topic of the first Christian counsel in Jerusalem. Paul thought that faith alone saved you, but what is faith, not doing anything that Christ said to do. We have the elementary understanding of salvation, Christ knows more about salvation than we do, and He said to do these things. Now exactly the spiritual functions of what they do, is not explained completely. What happens to you if you choose not to be baptized or if you die before you are baptized is not explained. All we have is the storyline of how urgently they wanted to get baptized as soon as possible.

But no where is baptism and communion defined as works....they are in fact what Christ tells you to do to get to heaven.
Again Christ and the apostle never indicate that baptism is of little important or an option or that that you can get to heaven without either one.
As far as discipleship, baptism does a few things, but for sure being baptized in the name of Christ defined you as His disciple.