Salvation Through Baptism ???

[marksman]

Under delusion???

Tong
R0778

Yeah. You know like you are.

 

[Mr C]

Don’t buy into the flawed logic that man is saved by “these” works (good works) and just not “those” works (works of the law). Paul and James are both referring to works which cannot be dissected from the moral aspect of the law. (James 2:15-16; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10)

Also, don’t buy into the flawed logic that we must accomplish certain works (water baptism, taking communion etc..) in order to be saved, then deny that these works are works. Paul made it clear that man is saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone and not by works, which is not merely limited only to “specific” works of the law, but includes works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Jn 6:28,29 - belief is a work.

(Heb.11:6)

 

[mailmandan]

lol I will play your game. What scripture says specifically that "being saved will get you to heaven?"
Odd are good that Christ and the Apostles did not count on someone having the audacity or the ignorance to question what they were telling them to do to achieve salvation.

Believeth and is baptized...so there is your "and"
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; be he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyer rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of Him.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This is not a game and only those who are saved (and not lost) are going to heaven. Salvation is not probation. In Luke 8:12, notice “believe and be saved.” In John 3:16, we read that those who “believe in Him” shall not perish, but have eternal life. You do understand that eternal life for believers will be in heaven and not hell, right? John 3:18 - He who “believes in Him” is not condemned.. To not be condemned means going to heaven. John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and “believes in him” shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. There are numerous other verses I could quote, but this will suffice. So as we can see from scripture, believers are saved and going to heaven. Unbelievers (those who do not trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation) are not going to heaven.

In regards to “and” in Mark 16:16, Jesus clarifies the first clause with, “but he who does not believe will be condemned.” Jesus did not say that whoever is not baptized will be condemned. What happened to “and” in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? Did Jesus forget to mention it? I saw that you were unable to show me the “ands” in the multiple passages of scripture that I quoted in post #307. I also saw that everything I explained to you in post #307 in regards to the verses you quoted just seemed to go right over your head. (if you even bothered to read what I wrote) It’s becoming painfully obvious to me that you are thoroughly indoctrinated into Roman Catholicism and are unteachable.

 

[Candidus]

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; be he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyer rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of Him.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto unt thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Ooop! I guess you missed these!

"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be void." 1 Cor.1:17.

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Rom. 11:6.

"if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth confesses, resulting in salvation." Rom. 10:9-10.

If you must be baptized to be saved, why does the Scripture say we are:

1. Saved by grace through faith, not of works, which would include baptism! (Rom. 3:24-25; Eph. 2:8-9; Acts 15:8-9).

2. Saved by faith without works, including baptism! (Rom. 4:1-25; 5:1; Gal. 3:19-29).

3. Saved by faith in the blood of Jesus, not faith in water! (Matt. 26:28; Eph 1:7; Rev. 1:5; 1 Jn. 1:7; Heb. 9:22; 1 Pet. 1:18-23).

4. Saved by calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:9-13).

5. Saved by believing on Jesus (John 3:16-18; 26; Acts 10:43; 13:38-40; 16:31; Rom. 10:9-10; 1 Cor. 1:21). Not one time is baptism referred to as necessary to gain salvation in ANY of these passages!

Oops! I guess you missed these!

 

[mailmandan]

Jn 6:28,29 - belief is a work.

(Heb.11:6)

Belief is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Through believing, we are trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption - Romans 3:24-28). John 6:29 is simply a play on words by Jesus when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" So Jesus was not saying that believing is just "another work in a series of works," which would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction - "saved through faith, not works."

 

[mailmandan]

Baptism is not the gospel of salvation, the gospel of Jesus Christ is.

Salvation is not through baptism, but through faith.

Tong
R0774

Amen! The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

 

[Candidus]

As I said, you can reject Christ words, but where does that leave you? At no time is baptism or communion referred to as works.

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." Romans 4:1-2.

What "works" is this directed at? Circumcision! Something a man does apart from faith alone! Baptism, just like Circumcision, is a command of God. In the Old Testament it was man's response to being counted righteous by faith (saved!), and in the New Testament, Paul applies this to Christians who are saved by faith and not by works... including Baptism!

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all," Rom. 4: 3-16.

Paul makes it plain, nowhere in all the Bible is someone saved by works, but by faith! Works flow from being saved, and are in no way the "cause" of salvation! To add Baptism or Circumcision as a requirement to be saved, Paul writes...
"For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:"

Paul writes not only to the Jews, but to us too!

"And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." Rom. 4:22-25.

 

[Grailhunter]

I have given dozens of scriptures showing that Christ and the Apostles preached that believing and baptism was necessary and the Bible is very clear as to what happens to someone that preaches a different Gospel.

Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Do you know what accursed means? I was not kidding! If you look you can find Baby Ray's barbecue sauce on sale some times....get the big bottle. They probably got a whole section of hell for people that call Christ a liar by preaching their own Gospel. All aboard! For the Anti-Gospel train to hell!

 

[Candidus]

I have given dozens of scriptures showing that Christ and the Apostles preached that believing and baptism was necessary and the Bible is very clear as to what happens to someone that preaches a different Gospel.

Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Do you know what accursed means? I was not kidding! If you look you can find Baby Ray's barbecue sauce on sale some times....get the big bottle. They probably got a whole section of hell for people that call Christ a liar by preaching their own Gospel. All aboard! For the Anti-Gospel train to hell!

Paul writes, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations; even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it." Gal. 3:14-15.

Adding Baptismal Regeneration to the Gospel is the same thing as adding circumcision to the Gospel in the Church of Galatia. It is a "gospel that is contrary" to what Paul and the Apostles preached. I don't believe that God would see a glob of Baptismal Regeneration leaven as any less dangerous than a pinch of Jewish leaven. Though Galatians deals specifically with the Jewish Law-keeping of the Old Testament being forced upon Christians saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, any additional requirement (a "law" to believe a doctrine not in the Scriptures), is a violation of the same principle involved.

 

[mailmandan]

Paul writes, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations; even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it." Gal. 3:14-15.

Adding Baptismal Regeneration to the Gospel is the same thing as adding circumcision to the Gospel in the Church of Galatia. It is a "gospel that is contrary" to what Paul and the Apostles preached. I don't believe that God would see a glob of Baptismal Regeneration leaven as any less dangerous than a pinch of Jewish leaven. Though Galatians deals specifically with the Jewish Law-keeping of the Old Testament being forced upon Christians saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, any additional requirement (a "law" to believe a doctrine not in the Scriptures), is a violation of the same principle involved.

Amen! The apostle Paul explains why people don’t believe the gospel:

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Tong2020]

So do I but I don't read them with blinkered thinking as you do. The scripture says and you may not have read them or maybe they have been taken out of your bible that being born again means getting a new heart and a new way of life. All you have done is point out stage one and ignored stage two.

What I've done there is nothing more than to show what God said of man, of man's heart.

Now, if you claim to believe what God says in those scriptures, then you believe that every intent of the thoughts of man's heart was only evil continually and the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth. And so you also then would understand that there is not a man, except Jesus, whose heart is not evil, and no one is righteous in the sight of God.

You said, "...being born again means getting a new heart and a new way of life." That's right. No issue on that.

Tong
R0781

 

[Grailhunter]

Paul writes, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations; even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it." Gal. 3:14-15.

Adding Baptismal Regeneration to the Gospel is the same thing as adding circumcision to the Gospel in the Church of Galatia. It is a "gospel that is contrary" to what Paul and the Apostles preached. I don't believe that God would see a glob of Baptismal Regeneration leaven as any less dangerous than a pinch of Jewish leaven. Though Galatians deals specifically with the Jewish Law-keeping of the Old Testament being forced upon Christians saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, any additional requirement (a "law" to believe a doctrine not in the Scriptures), is a violation of the same principle involved.

If you add to Christ's words or take them away you are accursed. Christ and the Apostles preached that faith and baptism was necessary. The scriptures are very very clear on this, anyone that preaches anything different are preaching an Anti-Gospel and will not...will not inherit the kingdom of heaven...and that is period!

 

[Josho]

Salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Tong2020]

Yeah. You know like you are.

Oh, easy now sir. Don't fall into the old and cheap ad hominem path.

Tong
R0782

 

[JunChosen]

Once again we have someone hanging their doctrine on a couple of verses picked out to strengthen their argument. I will say it again. YOU DO NOT build a doctrine on one or a couple of verses taken out of context. That is proof-texting which you can make say anything you want.

To get a clear view you need to discuss ALL the verses regarding this topic. Not just one or two taken at random.

True. We must take all verses that pertains to a particular doctrine and until we have exhausted what else does the Bible say, we have not found truth, that is comparing scripture with scripture.

But what if we come across a verse that IS NOT found elsewhere in the Bible, what
then? How will we be able to understand that verse, for instance, such as Daniel 12:13?

I surmise that most in here need to expound (without bias) "grace vs works" of Ephesians 2:8-9 to get truth concentrating only on these two verses.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Candidus]

If you add to Christ's words or take them away you are accursed. Christ and the Apostles preached that faith and baptism was necessary. The scriptures are very very clear on this, anyone that preaches anything different are preaching an Anti-Gospel and will not...will not inherit the kingdom of heaven...and that is period!

"...I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel: which is really not another; only there are some are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed." Gal. 1:6-9.."

Jesus said, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." John 3:16-18.

Paul writes, "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is LORD," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." Rom. 10:9-10.

And... "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe." 1 Cor. 1:21.

Paul preached, "Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:" Acts 13:38-40.

Peter chimes in and says... "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." Acts 10:43.

 

[Grailhunter]

"...I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel: which is really not another; only there are some are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed." Gal. 1:6-9.."

Jesus said, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." John 3:16-18.

Paul writes, "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is LORD," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." Rom. 10:9-10.

And... "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe." 1 Cor. 1:21.

Paul preached, "Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:" Acts 13:38-40.

Peter chimes in and says... "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." Acts 10:43.

I have not deserted anything. I fight for the Gospel truth. If you want to deny what Christ said....do you really believe? Is that what you call faith? What is faith....Is your faith that you have more authority than Christ that you can correct His word. The Bible says that if you do that, you are accursed! And so be it!

 

[Philip James]

Saved by grace through faith, not of works, which would include baptism!

Hello Candidus,

Baptism is not a work that one does. One cannot baptise themselves...

It is rather, a gift that one receives from God!

Can we be saved by Grace through faith if we refuse that Grace?

Peace be with you!

 

[Candidus]

Hello Candidus,

Baptism is not a work that one does. One cannot baptise themselves...

It is rather, a gift that one receives from God!

Can we be saved by Grace through faith if we refuse that Grace?

Peace be with you!

And neither would circumcision... yet Scripture calls it a work.

 

[Candidus]

Hello Candidus,

Baptism is not a work that one does. One cannot baptise themselves...

It is rather, a gift that one receives from God!

Can we be saved by Grace through faith if we refuse that Grace?

Peace be with you!

So you are saying that God cannot save a person by faith, and He needs a man to save them by baptizing them?

A man marooned on an island by himself cannot be saved?