Salvation Through Baptism ???

[kcnalp]

Who does that?

The water baptism fanatics.

 

[JunChosen]

Noah and his family's lives were saved THROUGH water because they were in the Ark.

I'm familiar with your church's teaching that Mary represents the Ark. and therefore you are saved because you went through water and because you were in the Ark. You know what, I can prove to you through Scripture that there is no God but what is the purpose since I know there is a God?

We're not saved BY the water of Baptism - but THROUGH it.
We are born again of water and Spirit (John 3:5).

You can be baptized with water all day and every which way you like, even upside down and it will not bring you closer to salvation!

The Bible speaks of two baptisms, yet Ephesians 4:5 states there is only one. Which baptism saves?

To God Be The Glory

 

[Tong2020]

The question is WHAT SAVED NOAH? (not water alone)

Nothing alone saves man.

Why change my questions?

My questions for you were:

So, perhaps then you can tell us, Noah was saved from what?

Tell us, how had water saved Noah?

Additionally, who saved Noah? This I'll answer for you ~ God.


Tong
R0864

 

[kcnalp]

You can be baptized with water all day and every which way you like, even upside down and it will not bring you closer to salvation!

No doubt, many who are baptized in water will burn in Hell. They are quite judgmental!

 

[Tong2020]

Without faith we cannot please God. That has been a Catholic teaching for 2000 years! Basil.

That's good then. And what do we ultimately understand by that, except that, one is saved through faith?

Tong
R0865

 

[marksman]

So what you're saying is putting on the "new" you do not sin any longer? Repentance means to go the opposite way.

To God Be The Glory

Am I? That is news to me.

 

[marksman]

What saves people is the grace of God in Jesus Christ. The better question is Who saves people? The answer is God. Another good question is How does God save people? The answer is, through faith. One popular wrong answer is, through water baptism.

Tong
R0846

I nor anyone else has said you are saved through water baptism. I have told you this before but it seems that it is falling on deaf ears.

 

[marksman]

So say you!

Of course, that is what the original Greek says so why wouldn't I say it?

 

[kcnalp]

Jesus could forgive sins any way He wanted while on earth.

With or without blood.

A clear attack on Jesus' Blood atonement!

 

[Mr C]

A clear attack on Jesus' Blood atonement!

Or it is a clear misunderstanding of the word of God and the POWER of God.

Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. (Mt.22:29)

Jesus is God and could forgive sins anyway He wanted while on earth. (Mark 2:5)

Just as a man can give away his possessions as long as he lives.

Once the man dies his WILL decides where his possessions will go. (Heb.7:12 ; 9:15-17 ; 10:9,10)

 

[Mr C]

The water baptism fanatics.

Like these? (Acts 8;5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34)

Ac 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing

 

[mailmandan]

The difference here is that those Catholic men you quoted understood that "Faith" does not = "Belief".
They understood that Faith=Belief+Obedience/Surrender/Works.

Faith = belief, trust, reliance and "acts of obedience" which "follow" are "works" and we are saved through faith, not works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Roman Catholics basically "infuse" works "into" faith (basically re-define faith to include works) and teach salvation by faith and works, then those works become meritorious towards receiving eternal life. Then you try and justify your works based false gospel by saying, "these are not our works, but God's works that He prepared for us to do and we can't take credit for doing them," which is just sugar coated double talk. - The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

Remember - James, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit stated that id ALL you do is believe - then you're NO better off than the DEMONS who also believe in the truths about God (James 2:19).

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

This is a common misrepresentation of what Catholics believe.
We have never taught that we are "saved" by our works.

We have already been over this before in another thread. Roman Catholics teach salvation by faith (their version of faith) and works. When I said, "salvation by works," the implication was salvation by works apart from any kind of faith whatsoever, but faith and works. So tell me, how many works must you accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to "help" Christ save you? Where do you draw the line in the sand? Christ draws the line in the sand in John 3:18.

If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? The answer to that question will bring to light exactly what you are trusting in for salvation. Christ alone or Christ and works? The answer is already obvious to me.

 

[mailmandan]

Your welcome.

I find it interesting that you believe that you have discerned the infallible truth from Scripture on salvation. I wonder why God is only allowing you to be infallible on that doctrine and not others?

Yes, The Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth, explains it for me. Neither you or I am the pillar.

I never said that God is only allowing me to discern His infallible truth from Scripture in regards to salvation. All genuine believers are capable of discerning this truth in regards to how man is saved. The Church, the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18,24) is made up of all genuine believers/born again Christians and is not simply a church building with a name stamped on it.

 

[mailmandan]

Without faith we cannot please God.

Amen! (Hebrews 11:6)

That has been a Catholic teaching for 2000 years!

Yet Catholics teach we are saved by faith AND WORKS.

Basil. Chrysostom, Bernard of Clairvaux used the words "faith alone", but that does not mean they taught faith apart from hope and love. Love is faith in action, not a warm fuzzy.

Faith is not apart from hope. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1) You can't have faith without hope. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) and the love of God has been poured out into the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5) Faith is faith and acts of love which are produced "out of" faith are works.

That was the error of the so called reformers. If you mean "faith alone" fused with hope and love, then "faith alone" is perfectly acceptable to Catholics.

Faith is not without hope and genuine believers are not without love, but the problem with the Catholic view of faith fused with love is they turn acts of love/works into the basis or means by which man is saved, so it's right back to salvation by faith and works.

Love demands action and obedience to all His commandments, not just empty intellectual ascent.

So you have perfectly obeyed ALL of God's commandments? You are without sin? Love results in action and is not just a warm fuzzy feeling.

James 2:24 and Galatians 5:6 demolishes the reformist "faith alone" doctrine, and many others as well.

No it doesn't. In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In Galatians 5:6, faith working through love doesn't mean we are saved by acts of love/works that are produced out of faith. Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 along with many others demolishes the Roman Catholic "saved by faith and works" doctrine.

 

[mailmandan]

What about it. ? If you do not confess Jesus before men, He will not confess you before His Father in heaven ...

God's Word never confuses nor denies nor changes being immersed in Jesus' Name.

You quoted John 3:18 and took your stand, but you have not finished reading it...

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(If I study hard for a test, I should pass).

So you interpret John 3:16 "should not perish" as those who believe in Him should not perish, but they still might perish? There are those who stress the word "should" (which is subjunctive mood) in John 3:16 and imply that those who believe in Him "should" not perish, but still might. The Catholic Bible (NAB) goes further and translates it "might not perish but might have eternal life" to really raise doubt about whether or not believers will receive eternal life.

In John 3:18, we read, He who believes in Him "is not" condemned.. What happened to should not be condemned, but still might be condemned?
Actually, half or more of the English translations of John 3:16 do not use the word should, and maybe because the translators felt that might confuse people. The NASB and NIV read, “whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” The NET Bible, LEB, and HCSB have the same translation except they use "will" instead of shall (will not perish).

Let's continue...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
John 4:3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

So what? New converts/disciples were baptized, as they should be, but that doesn't mean they were saved by water baptism. What happened to baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What is the one condition for receiving eternal life that Jesus mentions nine different times? BELIEVES.

You believe in the Lord, you SHOULD not die unsaved, but you must OBEY the salvation plan (which includes water baptism)...

If you believe in the Lord, then you must obey the salvation plan. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). What happened to baptism? The salvation plan does not include water baptism. Water baptism "follows" believing in Christ unto salvation. (Acts 10:43-47)

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* :)

 

[mailmandan]

But I did not say no one taught faith alone before Luther. You had to ADD that so you could make a point. Just as you ADD the word ALONE to faith. (Like Luther)

So you admit that someone before Luther taught faith alone. Thank you! :)

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 10:39; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. So I am not adding anything. It is what it is. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

 

[mailmandan]

I had rather read God's word.

I quoted God's word in post #871. ALL OF THE VERSE and I did not simply isolate one part of the verse AND IGNORE THE REST as you did. That seems to be your method of hermeneutics. Isolate a pet verse (or merely one part of a pet verse) build doctrine on it, then ignore the rest.

 

[Mr C]

So you interpret John 3:16 "should not perish" as those who believe in Him should not perish, but they still might perish? There are those who stress the word "should" (which is subjunctive mood) in John 3:16 and imply that those who believe in Him "should" not perish, but still might. The Catholic Bible (NAB) goes further and translates it "might not perish but might have eternal life" to really raise doubt about whether or not believers will receive eternal life.

In John 3:18, we read, He who believes in Him "is not" condemned.. What happened to should not be condemned, but still might be condemned?
Actually, half or more of the English translations of John 3:16 do not use the word should, and maybe because the translators felt that might confuse people. The NASB and NIV read, “whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” The NET Bible, LEB, and HCSB have the same translation except they use "will" instead of shall (will not perish).

So what? New converts/disciples were baptized, as they should be, but that doesn't mean they were saved by water baptism. What happened to baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What is the one condition for receiving eternal life that Jesus mentions nine different times? BELIEVES.

If you believe in the Lord, then you must obey the salvation plan. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). What happened to baptism? The salvation plan does not include water baptism. Water baptism "follows" believing in Christ unto salvation. (Acts 10:43-47)

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* :)

You should be a magician.

 

[Tong2020]

I nor anyone else has said you are saved through water baptism. I have told you this before but it seems that it is falling on deaf ears.

You said "What saves people is repentance AND BAPTISM."

But if that is not saying that you are saved through water baptism, so be it then.

Tong
R0870

 

[GISMYS_7]

Think!!! You can be baptized every day of your life and still go to hell!!!